The Political Thread

[Arcadia]

 

Tbh I'm starting to think that most of the Trump voters must now realise that they made a huge blunder by voting him in. However they're too stubborn to admit it so they go around making whatever excuses they can to save face. 

 

I don't think your friend actually believes that sick old people deserve to die, Arcadia. I think it's more that she's just trying to avoid criticism from the anti-Trump crowd.

 

I'm starting to think the anti-Trump crowd (including myself) may be a bit too harsh to Trump supporters. I think we tend to criticise, humiliate etc them so much that Trump supporters don't want to accept they're wrong even if they're given all the proof in the world. Maybe if we were a bit more tolerant/accepting of Trump supporters, they'd be more likely to withdraw their support for Trump. I know being tolerant of Trump supporters is really difficult to do due to all the terrible things Trump has done and is planning on doing to the US but I think we may need to learn to do better if we really want to end Trump's massive fanbase. 

 

 

 

I probably wasn't clear enough, Sure. (May I call you Sure? Or Surel? ) (Or maybe Shezza?) She didn't say she believes old people deserve to die ... she said she believed that when the government is involved in health care, the government refuses to treat old people. And she was saying this long before Trump came along, so I don't believe she was worried about that. Do you remember Sarah Palin and her "death panels"? That's what my friend believed in.

 

I had a long and interesting discussion with a couple other people recently; one is a dyed-in-the-wool right wing Republican, the other described herself as a right-leaning independent ... and both Trump supporters. And no, they don't regret their choice, and they think he's doing fine so far. They approve his policies. They think undocumented immigrants are ruining the country, that climate change is just a scam concocted by anti-religion liberals, that the economy is in ruins (even though their own incomes are well above average), that Muslims want to enforce sharia law in this country, and that abortion is murder. They are both intelligent and extremely well-educated. And they both hated Hillary with a vehemence that compares only to my hatred of Trump. The independent says she might have voted for Sanders, but never Hillary.

 

I honestly do not know how to communicate with them. Things I find abhorrent, they consider necessary. Things I find necessary, they consider a danger to their way of life. The only thing we could agree on was to be civil to one another; which seems to be more than most Americans can accomplish, these days. But that doesn't resolve anything.

[Arcadia]

Sorry, cross-posted.
 

I'll agree that Trump has very racist viewpoints. What I find ironic is that many liberals in the US support a government structure that turns out to be racist just by some of the non-government entities it supports.

Are you able to cite specific examples, Camper? I hear this kind of thing all the time, but never with specifics. Understandable, since I often have problems remembering specifics myself.

 

The biggest example is planned parenthood that very much targets low-income & minorities. They also claim to offer health services that they don't actually offer on top of it all.

I've always thought the primary objection that conservatives have to Planned Parenthood is that they present abortion as an acceptable option. Is that no longer the case?
 
I think a liberal would say it's not that Planned Parenthood "targets" low-income & minorities, but that that's who is more likely to need their services. The results may be the same, but the first way of saying it sounds more sinister; and some would object to that characterization.
 

[Surelock]

 

 

 

 

I probably wasn't clear enough, Sure. (May I call you Sure? Or Surel? ) (Or maybe Shezza?) 

 

Call me 'Master'.

 

Okay you don't have to call me that. You can just call me 'Sure'.

 

 

Are you sure your friend really believes what she's saying? It's possible for people to misevaluate themselves and misinterpret their own personality. For example, if your friend's own grandparents got sick and had no support from the government, I doubt she would say that they shouldn't be asking money from the government.

 

 

You seem to be giving conflicting accounts of the people you had a discussion with in your previous post.

 

On one hand you said:

 

 

 

They are both intelligent and extremely well-educated. 

 

But on the other hand you said:

 

 

 

And no, they don't regret their choice, and they think he's doing fine so far. They approve his policies. They think undocumented immigrants are ruining the country, that climate change is just a scam concocted by anti-religion liberals, that the economy is in ruins (even though their own incomes are well above average), that Muslims want to enforce sharia law in this country, and that abortion is murder.

 

Somebody who is intelligent and extremely well educated would know how to fact check Trump. If they believe things like Muslims want to enforce sharia law then they're probably getting they're information from Breibart which is considered as an unreliable site by the academic community.

 

So what do you mean by 'intelligent and well-educated'? 

[Caya]

I have a friend on the far right ... well, I'm not actually sure we're friends anymore ... anyway ... that's basically what she claimed "Obamacare" would be. She also insisted that's the way it is in Austria, where her mother was from. If you're old and get sick, too bad ... the government just tells you to die. The difference between her and you, JP, is that she wasn't being sarcastic ... she insisted it was absolutely true.

 

Not that I think you believed that [censored], but say hello from Austria to your *friend* from me and tell her that nope, this is quite definitely not the case. We don't even have assisted suicide if a terminally sick person wants to die (whether that's good or bad is another can of worms I'm so not going to open here), let alone unasked-for euthanasia. We have free healthcare from birth to (naturally reached) death, and our healthcare system has additional provisions especially for the elderly and sick, too - for instance, my aunt (from when she was 89 to her death at 90) required live-in care, for she was too frail to keep living on her own but her dementia made her panic when she was outside her familiar home, so both the ministry of health and the city of Vienna contributed to the costs of that (with about 1.1k eurobucks per month altogether, above and beyond free medical care and free medications, mind you). Tell your friend she's full of it.

 

[J.P.]

Considering to move to Austria.

[Caya]

Well my husband did that (moving from Germany to Austria, I mean) and he seems fairly happy with it, even though our general laziness and laissez-faire attitude (the vaunted Gemütlichkeit) drive him up the wall sometimes. :lol:

[Arcadia]

 

I probably wasn't clear enough, Sure. (May I call you Sure? Or Surel? ) (Or maybe Shezza?)

 

Call me 'Master'.

Nice try, kiddo. :P

 

You seem to be giving conflicting accounts of the people you had a discussion with in your previous post.

 

.....

 

Somebody who is intelligent and extremely well educated would know how to fact check Trump. If they believe things like Muslims want to enforce sharia law then they're probably getting they're information from Breibart which is considered as an unreliable site by the academic community.

 

So what do you mean by 'intelligent and well-educated'?

 

I mean that they both have doctorate degrees, and one is, in fact, a medical doctor.  She also made a point of saying she gets her news from multiple sources. But we all have our inclinations, and theirs are to the right. Mine are to the left. I used to think it didn't make as much difference as I now do. The world has become a strange place to me.

 

 

I have a friend on the far right ... well, I'm not actually sure we're friends anymore ... anyway ... that's basically what she claimed "Obamacare" would be. She also insisted that's the way it is in Austria, where her mother was from. If you're old and get sick, too bad ... the government just tells you to die. The difference between her and you, JP, is that she wasn't being sarcastic ... she insisted it was absolutely true.

 

Not that I think you believed that [censored], but say hello from Austria to your *friend* from me and tell her that nope, this is quite definitely not the case. We don't even have assisted suicide if a terminally sick person wants to die (whether that's good or bad is another can of worms I'm so not going to open here), let alone unasked-for euthanasia. We have free healthcare from birth to (naturally reached) death, and our healthcare system has additional provisions especially for the elderly and sick, too - for instance, my aunt (from when she was 89 to her death at 90) required live-in care, for she was too frail to keep living on her own but her dementia made her panic when she was outside her familiar home, so both the ministry of health and the city of Vienna contributed to the costs of that (with about 1.1k eurobucks per month altogether, above and beyond free medical care and free medications, mind you). Tell your friend she's full of it.

 

 

Thanks! I "knew" it wasn't true (things like that just aren't ... I don't know how to explain it any better than that), but I didn't have any evidence to back me up so all I could say was that doubted it was quite that simple.

 

She's a stubborn sort, though ... she will believe what she wants to believe, and for whatever reason, what she wants to believe is that anything a government does is done badly. I've since learned she also holds quite a few views I consider racist. I doubt if we'll be able to talk about stuff like that anymore. The well's become too poisoned. :(

[J.P.]

Well, I have to admit I used to think that common sense is a bit more common, and that generally the most people want to live in peace and make the world better.

 

I'm really disappointed (and appalled) with the humanity.

 

And that's me saying that.

[Arcadia]

I still think most people want to live in peace, but their ideas for how to achieve that and mine sure are different.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Sorry, cross-posted.

 

I'll agree that Trump has very racist viewpoints. What I find ironic is that many liberals in the US support a government structure that turns out to be racist just by some of the non-government entities it supports.

Are you able to cite specific examples, Camper? I hear this kind of thing all the time, but never with specifics. Understandable, since I often have problems remembering specifics myself.

 

The biggest example is planned parenthood that very much targets low-income & minorities. They also claim to offer health services that they don't actually offer on top of it all.

I've always thought the primary objection that conservatives have to Planned Parenthood is that they present abortion as an acceptable option. Is that no longer the case?

 

I think a liberal would say it's not that Planned Parenthood "targets" low-income & minorities, but that that's who is more likely to need their services. The results may be the same, but the first way of saying it sounds more sinister; and some would object to that characterization.

 

 

Just check where most of their offices are located.  In MN where I live, I have not seen any in the predominantly white, middle-class suburbs of the Twin Cities (where I live & I've been through most of them), but in the lower-class and/or minority inhabited areas of inner-city Minneapolis & St. Paul and also in Duluth.  Also I have read from reliable sources (it's been awhile so I don't remember where & there might have been an audio recording even) that 1 of the higher-ups in the organization more or less confirmed that at least certain minority groups were targeted.

 

Finally found 1 of the articles that mentions it: http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/22/nick-cannon-planned-parenthood-committing-real-genocide-black-americans/?utm_content=buffer668c2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

And here's another that I find just as disturbing since it deals with human trafficking & Planned Parenthood's involvement in not stopping it: http://dailysignal.com/2017/02/17/troubling-new-videos-show-urgent-need-to-defund-planned-parenthood/?utm_content=buffera057b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Have fun reading. I'm off to dream land as I need to be up in less than 7 hours.

[J.P.]

The gun stuff is pretty messed up. Isn't it bad enough that it's so easy to own a gun?

 

Well, the access to guns might be another way to fix problem with the sick, weak and old. One can make more money on guns than on rope.

[Van Buren Supernova]

What about guy? My post was saying guy :p, is guy a way to fix problem as well?

 

 

 

 

I just need to have lousy joke because it's depressing to read about why government etc still want to have control and telling women what not to do with their choice and body.

I don't want to open a can of worm, but it's so naive that morality is still viewed as black and white.

There is no black and white, there is never black and white.

[J.P.]

A guy with a gun - it could work.

 

As for pro-choice: I'm all for it. But I think the argument about deciding what happens with one's body is a wrong one. Because it alludes that the women want to have abortions at whim, if they just don't like to be pregnant - as if they just wanted un-save sex but no consequences. It also fuels the discussion about from what moment an embrio becomes a human, which is one of those you will have no answer.

 

IMO the stress should be put on the medical reasons and that in the most cases the choice is not an easy one. I happily never had to make this decision. Because even killing a "potential human being" can haunt you all your life. So I am for everything be done to prevent an abortion: education, adoption, support… everything. But it seems be of no interest of abortion oponents.

[Arcadia]

 

Sorry, cross-posted.

 

I'll agree that Trump has very racist viewpoints. What I find ironic is that many liberals in the US support a government structure that turns out to be racist just by some of the non-government entities it supports.

Are you able to cite specific examples, Camper? I hear this kind of thing all the time, but never with specifics. Understandable, since I often have problems remembering specifics myself.

 

The biggest example is planned parenthood that very much targets low-income & minorities. They also claim to offer health services that they don't actually offer on top of it all.

I've always thought the primary objection that conservatives have to Planned Parenthood is that they present abortion as an acceptable option. Is that no longer the case?

 

I think a liberal would say it's not that Planned Parenthood "targets" low-income & minorities, but that that's who is more likely to need their services. The results may be the same, but the first way of saying it sounds more sinister; and some would object to that characterization.

 

 

Just check where most of their offices are located.  In MN where I live, I have not seen any in the predominantly white, middle-class suburbs of the Twin Cities (where I live & I've been through most of them), but in the lower-class and/or minority inhabited areas of inner-city Minneapolis & St. Paul and also in Duluth.  Also I have read from reliable sources (it's been awhile so I don't remember where & there might have been an audio recording even) that 1 of the higher-ups in the organization more or less confirmed that at least certain minority groups were targeted.

 

Finally found 1 of the articles that mentions it: http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/22/nick-cannon-planned-parenthood-committing-real-genocide-black-americans/?utm_content=buffer668c2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

And here's another that I find just as disturbing since it deals with human trafficking & Planned Parenthood's involvement in not stopping it: http://dailysignal.com/2017/02/17/troubling-new-videos-show-urgent-need-to-defund-planned-parenthood/?utm_content=buffera057b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Have fun reading. I'm off to dream land as I need to be up in less than 7 hours.

 

 

Well, since those are both from anti-abortion advocates, I take their findings with a grain of salt. I could just as easily go online and find pro-choice advocates who make opposite claims. I don't know if it's possible to find a "neutral" source of facts any more, though. I mean, one that all parties would agree is neutral.

 

Again, I take issue with the word "target." To me, it only makes sense that you place your facilities nearer to the people who are most likely to need them. That's not sinister, as "targeting" would imply; it's practical. I would use a more neutral phrase, like, "they are more likely to make themselves available in places where their services are in higher demand."

[Arcadia]

What about guy? My post was saying guy :P, is guy a way to fix problem as well?

 

 

I just need to have lousy joke because it's depressing to read about why government etc still want to have control and telling women what not to do with their choice and body.

I don't want to open a can of worm, but it's so naive that morality is still viewed as black and white.

There is no black and white, there is never black and white.

 

 

You need a lousy joke? Here's a lousy joke:

 

​"What do you instantly know about a well-dressed man?"

"His wife is good at picking out clothes."

[T.o.b.y]

A guy with a gun - it could work.

 

As for pro-choice: I'm all for it. But I think the argument about deciding what happens with one's body is a wrong one. Because it alludes that the women want to have abortions at whim, if they just don't like to be pregnant - as if they just wanted un-save sex but no consequences. It also fuels the discussion about from what moment an embrio becomes a human, which is one of those you will have no answer.

 

IMO the stress should be put on the medical reasons and that in the most cases the choice is not an easy one. I happily never had to make this decision. Because even killing a "potential human being" can haunt you all your life. So I am for everything be done to prevent an abortion: education, adoption, support… everything. But it seems be of no interest of abortion oponents.

YES! This exactly. If you want fewer abortions, your best bet is comprehensive, qualified and early sex-ed for everybody, affordable and accessible sexual health care including low-cost access to contraception and policies that make having children affordable as well as a workplace culture that is friendly towards parents. Strangely enough, most anti-abortion advocates either don't care for or seem to be violently opposed to these things.

 

I don't like abortions either. But I am still pro-choice because I do not believe forbidding the procedure would do any good. If anything, it would promote medically unsafe practices undertaken secretly at home. And "pro-life" sounds great on paper but maybe we should begin by being a little more pro that life which already exists and reflecting that in our laws and our culture...

[Fantasy Lover]

Anti-abortion don't care about born life, if they did then we wouldn't have something like BLM.

[J.P.]

I don't like abortions either. But I am still pro-choice because I do not believe forbidding the procedure would do any good. If anything, it would promote medically unsafe practices undertaken secretly at home. And "pro-life" sounds great on paper but maybe we should begin by being a little more pro that life which already exists and reflecting that in our laws and our culture...

 

Yepp, ti me it's the killing argument - illegality of abortion won't stop it. If a woman is desperate, she will find a way. And probably pay not only a lot of money but also pay with her health or even her life. That's why the symbol of the women's protests in Poland was a wire hanger - because they used to be adapted into abortion instruments by charlatans.

[Fantasy Lover]

http://secondnexus.com/politics-and-economics/white-house-cuts-compassionate/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_a49c0e500b1c11e79b1a07d5f3e08d7d oh, for the love of God.

[Arcadia]

YES! This exactly. If you want fewer abortions, your best bet is comprehensive, qualified and early sex-ed for everybody, affordable and accessible sexual health care including low-cost access to contraception and policies that make having children affordable as well as a workplace culture that is friendly towards parents. Strangely enough, most anti-abortion advocates either don't care for or seem to be violently opposed to these things.

 

I don't like abortions either. But I am still pro-choice because I do not believe forbidding the procedure would do any good. If anything, it would promote medically unsafe practices undertaken secretly at home. And "pro-life" sounds great on paper but maybe we should begin by being a little more pro that life which already exists and reflecting that in our laws and our culture...

 

Amen, sister. I personally would prefer there be no abortions, but I'd also prefer every woman make that decision for herself. Gawd, I thought this fight was over and done with.... sigh.

 

http://secondnexus.com/politics-and-economics/white-house-cuts-compassionate/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_a49c0e500b1c11e79b1a07d5f3e08d7d oh, for the love of God.

 

You know what really makes me angry about this? This is the same tired old sh*t the conservatives have been trying to pull on this country since I was old enough to follow the news. The. Same. Stupid. Crap. It's a joke, a scam, and a travesty, and the same stupid people are going to fall for it all over again. 

 

Can you tell I'm fuming?.....

[SherlockedCAMPer]

1 I don't think the government should be providing meals on wheels, the church should.  2 The church used and then about 100 years ago started not doing services such as that thus necessitating the government stepping in.  I'm wondering why they were stupid enough to stop because it goes against what they are taught in the Bible.

[Arcadia]

Yes, there's always a big gap between "should be" and what "is," imo. Someone has to fill it.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Holy smoke, cut those and spend on..?

Is it military and nuclear?

I remember reading that defence budget increase is so significant that it's comparable to Russian whole defense budget (hope I am wrong, but I remember it made headlines for a couple of days)

 

I'd say cut the golf courses to improve housing.

Spend budget on politician basic education amd install google search at every corner of the white house.

Employ a fly swatter on only one computer (if there are more, cut it! Save budget!) connected to twitter, to smack any attempts of unfounded accusations, remarks or head banging stuff like this:

 

Accused wiretapping.

All eligible domestic organizations and people deny possibilities and request for proves.

Insist and ignoring request for proves.

International organization speak up to deny.

Ignore.

Delegation from another country comes for visit.

Ignore handshake and say the similarity they have is they are both wiretapped.

 

This could be funny.. in CRAPPY SITCOM!

[Surelock]

Do you know the worst thing about the big Conservative Christians in power in the US? They make all the Christians in the country look insane by saying crazy things.

 

The most craziest thing they've said is that Trump was chosen by God to be the U.S. President:

 

 

 

 

I don't know how anyone can believe that Trump is even a remotely religious person. Trump seems to embody every one of the seven deadly sins: pride, lust, gluttony etc. I honestly don't know how anyone could see him as a messiah chosen by God to save the U.S.

[J.P.]

As for church providing meals etc. - In the 80ies the Catholic Church provided some help with goods that were sent to Poland from abroad. But you can imagine who got those goods. The churchgoers of course.

 

Now, if Meals on Wheels were a business of a church - you have to define which one. Would a Catholic get a meal from the Protestant Church? Or a Muslim, or an atheist? Because the funds for each church are provided from their followers, and the benefits would be for everyone, which might be christian, but is not especially fair.

 

Providing people in need with the substancial support has to be carried by everyone and be available for everyone.