Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[bedelia1984]

 

 

It looks like nobody has asked the obvious questions so I may as well:

 

If Euros was feeling lonely and wanted to play then why didn't she just go and say it to Sherlock like any normal kid would? Why did she go to great lengths to put Victor in a well and make this complex puzzle for Sherlock to solve? If Sherlock wasn't listening to her then why didn't Euros just go to her mother and tell her she was lonely?

 

I swear for a genius, she does a lot of things that defy common sense.

Because she wasn't a normal kid.

 

 

Trust me, not all kids are good with expressing how they feel, not openly. And if Eurus tried, and Sherlock ignored her, she would most likely stop. Why go to the parents who can't change that Sherlock would rather hang out with his best friend?

 

Of course, reacting like Eurus did was extreme. But that's where I agree with Arcadia; she wasn't a normal kid. She was super-intelligent, maybe an outsider in school, and she didn't have friends.

 

 

Like others, I don't think the family dynamics/ Sherlock leaving her out was the main factor. Like the plane metaphor, it was her own mind that had her trapped, and that made her angry, and lash out at those around her. Spending more time with her brothers could also have made her feel their differences more keenly, instead of less. 

 

And, I hate to say it, but I would guess that if Sherlock continues to deepen their relationship, he might learn the hard way that whilst he can offer her time and attention, that might not be enough to convert her to a life of not wanting to hurt other people. She's already guilty of multiple deaths that we know of, and I'm not sure from a clinical point of view, how likely she is to reform. I can imagine him involved in some sort of adventure with her, and being blindsided by the fact she'd still kill an innocent person for fun.

 

Both Mycroft and Sherlock seem to automatically have a soft spot for their sister- and it is a dangerous vulnerability to have. I've never seen Mycroft make such bad decisions before, especially. If the show comes back, they could go there again quite easily- like, how is she currently more secure than she previously was? How was it Mycroft thought any prison Sherlock was in would have a riot, but saw Sherrinford as up to the task of keeping the infinitely more volatile Eurus?

 

Also, a question: When Eurus burned down the family home, were the others inside? Has she tried to kill them all, or at least shown disinterest in whether she does or not?

[BLS_Pro]

In regard to my post about existentialism as the Key to the episode and the series, and having gone back and rewatched TRF, I think I am correct is saying Moriarty is supposed to be the existentialist who accepts reality as meaningless and stops there, rejecting anything as able to provide life with meaning ("context"). His only answer to the "Problem" of living - the problem of existential dread (and the nauseating boredom of its 'sameness' - ie no differences between anything) is death ("Staying Alive" is the problem from which he wants to "Break Free"); Eurus is the existentialist who accepts reality as meaningless, knows love/others can provide it with meaning ("context"), but has no one who will give it to her, thus leaving her lost and desperate to be saved; and Sherlock is the existentialist who begins like Moriarty and is thus bored with life because of it, but who ultimately learns that love/others provide life with meaning ("context") [and it essentially doesn't matter WHO that other is, be it Irene, a hit-woman, etc as John says in The Lying Detective] and is thus saved by it (by his love for, and the Love from, John and the others).

Edited January 18, 2017 by BLS_Pro

[J.P.]

@BLS (THE KEY TO THE FINAL PROBLEM)

This is good. (which means )
 
I always say, as a collective mind we would be better than Eurus :P
 
But I still have a problem with the approach in TFP. It also refers to the Bond-criticism.
 
What I loved about the show was playing with the genres.
How it balanced between comedy and drama, but also between reality and fantasy. There were elements that would be not possible our reality, from the head in the fridge, the Beduin fighting at 221B to Sherlock's jump. It's a bit like the reality of Indiana Jones.
And yes, I've had massive problems with those elements at the beginning, because the rest of the production felt very real, especially the characters. They were too complex, too faceted for an adventure story. But I got used to this, because the briliant parts gave me enough to stay.
 
Now in TST the show seems to lift off from the show's reality (again - the different look doesn't help!), TLD lands it back, but TFP rockets it to the sky.

I don't like Bond movies. And that's not because of fights and fireworks, but because they strain my ability for suspension of disbelief too much, often enough insulting my intelligence and laws of physics. :D

And it's not that I cannot accept fictional framework. I love fantasy, and SF, but I require inner logic.

 

TFP requires much more of said suspension than the other seasons. That's why it feels bondish and fake to me.

 

Please disagree. :)I still haven't re-watched TFP

[Moi2099]

Oh My GOD ! 

This episode litteraly kill me, even if the close area is a little bit "déjà vu", I wouldn't have imagine a such thing 

 

And Molly .. What have they done to you ?!

But I feel that need more, that can be the end, no it definitely can't be.

I'm so lost, I like this episode really but something's wrong and I don't know what yet ..

And Moriarty, I was so happy so see him again and then I saw the "5 years ago" thing and my heart was broken.

[BLS_Pro]

@BLS (THE KEY TO THE FINAL PROBLEM)

This is good. (which means )

 

I always say, as a collective mind we would be better than Eurus :P

 

But I still have a problem with the approach in TFP. It also refers to the Bond-criticism.

 

What I loved about the show was playing with the genres.

How it balanced between comedy and drama, but also between reality and fantasy. There were elements that would be not possible our reality, from the head in the fridge, the Beduin fighting at 221B to Sherlock's jump. It's a bit like the reality of Indiana Jones.

And yes, I've had massive problems with those elements at the beginning, because the rest of the production felt very real, especially the characters. They were too complex, too faceted for an adventure story. But I got used to this, because the briliant parts gave me enough to stay.

 

Now in TST the show seems to lift off from the show's reality (again - the different look doesn't help!), TLD lands it back, but TFP rockets it to the sky.

I don't like Bond movies. And that's not because of fights and fireworks, but because they strain my ability for suspension of disbelief too much, often enough insulting my intelligence and laws of physics. :D

And it's not that I cannot accept fictional framework. I love fantasy, and SF, but I require inner logic.

 

TFP requires much more of said suspension than the other seasons. That's why it feels bondish and fake to me.

 

Please disagree. :)I still haven't re-watched TFP

Thanks.    And I can't disagree with you.  While I now understand the episode (and can now greatly appreciate its overall writing as very good - ie extremely thematically unified), ALL my specific complaints - including those about BAD writing - remain.

 

[J.P.]

It's like it had literally two levels. The psychological one (after a bit of hard work) seems quite consistent and rings true. The story itself - not so much. It's almost like a fairy-tale.

 

Bondish fairytale. A grim one. :P

[BLS_Pro]

It's like it had literally two levels. The psychological one (after a bit of hard work) seems quite consistent and rings true. The story itself - not so much. It's almost like a fairy-tale.

 

Bondish fairytale. A grim one. :P

It's much like Bride in that regard - which I think is brilliant now in all its levels, especially the Sixth Sense one, given this season reveals Bride was all about Eurus.

 

But I now understand why they did the story itself as they did.  And I can't say it doesn't 'ring true' in general.  It just doesn't 'ring' Sherlock.  It isn't HIS story and HE doesn't do anything really.  Again, if the story had been about HIM tearing down all his walls of repression (literally, in his mind palace - where such bond-like explosions would have been perfect) and HIM figuring out what Eurus needed, instead of him simply having to be led around in a maze by Eurus (and Mycroft), the story itself would have rung true AND been good writing AND have been unified thematically with the other levels to the story.

 

[BLS_Pro]

I do have to say, with my analysis of the episode and the series, I think it gives this episode MUCH more finality to it than I previously believed.  The writers have explored and resolved the fundamental issue of the series.  As they say, now we've got the mature Sherlock and Watson going off on their adventures, given they've solved the Final Problem.  Once THAT problem is solved, everything else is 'easy'.  Everything flows FROM it.

:(

[J.P.]

It's much like Bride in that regard - which I think is brilliant now in all its levels, especially the Sixth Sense one, given this season reveals Bride was all about Eurus.

 

But I now understand why they did the story itself as they did.  And I can't say it doesn't 'ring true' in general.  It just doesn't 'ring' Sherlock.  It isn't HIS story and HE doesn't do anything really.  Again, if the story had been about HIM tearing down all his walls of repression (literally, in his mind palace - where such bond-like explosions would have been perfect) and HIM figuring out what Eurus needed, instead of him simply having to be led around in a maze by Eurus (and Mycroft), the story itself would have rung true AND been good writing AND have been unified thematically with the other levels to the story.

 

Do you think it would work as a Mind Palace story? Can it be - it is?

Dang, I need to watch it again.

 

 

Oooh, folks, I'm back. I'm soooo back.

[BLS_Pro]

 

It's much like Bride in that regard - which I think is brilliant now in all its levels, especially the Sixth Sense one, given this season reveals Bride was all about Eurus.

 

But I now understand why they did the story itself as they did.  And I can't say it doesn't 'ring true' in general.  It just doesn't 'ring' Sherlock.  It isn't HIS story and HE doesn't do anything really.  Again, if the story had been about HIM tearing down all his walls of repression (literally, in his mind palace - where such bond-like explosions would have been perfect) and HIM figuring out what Eurus needed, instead of him simply having to be led around in a maze by Eurus (and Mycroft), the story itself would have rung true AND been good writing AND have been unified thematically with the other levels to the story.

 

Do you think it would work as a Mind Palace story? Can it be - it is?

Dang, I need to watch it again.

 

 

Oooh, folks, I'm back. I'm soooo back.

Well, Final IS partially a Mind Palace story - we essentially see a part (the core) of Eurus' mind palace: the plane.

 

And one could argue that Eurus turns Sherrinford INTO a real life version of a Mind Palace.

 

But no, this is not like Bride where most of the story is a Mind Palace story.  Sorry ;)

 

 

[Surelock]

 

It looks like nobody has asked the obvious questions so I may as well:

 

If Euros was feeling lonely and wanted to play then why didn't she just go and say it to Sherlock like any normal kid would? Why did she go to great lengths to put Victor in a well and make this complex puzzle for Sherlock to solve? If Sherlock wasn't listening to her then why didn't Euros just go to her mother and tell her she was lonely?

 

I swear for a genius, she does a lot of things that defy common sense.

Because she wasn't a normal kid.

 

 

She's above normal kids?

 

 

It looks like nobody has asked the obvious questions so I may as well:

 

If Euros was feeling lonely and wanted to play then why didn't she just go and say it to Sherlock like any normal kid would? Why did she go to great lengths to put Victor in a well and make this complex puzzle for Sherlock to solve?  If Sherlock wasn't listening to her then why didn't Euros just go to her mother and tell her she was lonely?

 

I swear for a genius, she does a lot of things that defy common sense.

 

Being a genius doesn't mean you can make sense of yuourself.

 

Her mother surely said go ask Sherlock to play with you.

 

Of course she went and said to Sherlock she wanted to play with him. But he was a boy, wanted boyish games. She probably also scared away all other kids in the neighborhood, they were too stupid, and she might have made them "laugh". Sherlock was the only one who could keep up with her, but he prefered a normal friend, who wasn't smarter than himself, over a manipulative genius without empathy, which was much safer and probably more fun.

 

Please don't put together intelligence and empathy/emotional intelligence/assertiveness. They are different things, they come from different places.

 

 

She could make sense of herself. She clearly said she wanted to play with Sherlock. She knew what she wanted. However she resorted convoluted means rather than the obvious methods.

 

All that stuff of Sherlock wanting to play with someone not as smart would just make Sherlock a hypocrite because he's also a genius and is smarter than everyone.

 

I'm starting to think Sherlock's parents were just terrible. They couldn't even tell when their daughter was lonely.

 

 

If Euros was feeling lonely and wanted to play then why didn't she just go and say it to Sherlock like any normal kid would? 

If Sherlock wasn't listening to her then why didn't Euros just go to her mother and tell her she was lonely?

Who is to say she didn't?  In fact, she probably did - like any normal kid.  And, like any normal kid, it wouldn't have solved her problem.  You can't force other kids to WANT to be your BEST FRIEND.  Your parents can't help your lack of having a best friend. 

 

You can't MAKE someone have a deep connection with you.  You can't FORCE someone to love and want to be with you.  And any pretense at it just amplifies the loneliness.  So 'Sherlock - go play with your sister' wouldn't help.

 

(This is one of the reasons why the "I Love You" scene with Molly is so painful for both of them)

 

 

Why would Sherlock not want to play with his sister if she was lonely? Why wouldn't he want to show her that she was loved? Wasn't Sherlock supposed to be the emotional child?

[Surelock]

 

He doesn't say anything insightful or amazing. He just says cliche things about love and understanding for a few minutes. Then the bad guys who have been bad guys for their entire life decide to become good.

 

When I saw Sherlock talk Euros out of being evil I immediately thought of how Naruto talked Nagato out of being a mass murderer

 

Since this episode is so derivative I wonder if Moffat and Gatiss got inspiration from Naruto.

"Without doubt, she WILL kill again if she has the opportunity."

 

Yup.  You nailed it.  'Sherlock talked Eurus out of being evil'.

 

 

Sherlock to Euros after helping her land:

 

'Help me save my friend.'

 

So yes Sherlock did talk to her out of doing evil if it was just temporarily.

[sherlockandjohn]

Someone help me... Did this happen before or after Eurus met Moriarty:

 

If after, could that be what Moriarty meant? :o

[Surelock]

Someone help me... Did this happen before or after Eurus met Moriarty:

 

If after, could that be what Moriarty meant? :o

 

Probably before and it's referring to what Moriarty was planning to do in The Reichenbach Fall. Moriarty was planning on destroying Sherlock's reputation and forcing him to commit suicide by threatening the three people who were closest to his heart (Mrs. Hudson, Lestrade and John).

[Inge l-w]

Oh, dear! Please don't introduce existentialism in a TFP context! And definitely not Burridan!

They are two average U.K. scriptwriters (didn't say 'English' because both Mr Moffat and besleybean would be up in arms in a twinkling!) who decided to copy-cat everything available from ACD canon down to Sherlock Holmes cartoons, mix it up with a little Bond, a little Batman (Ra'as al Ghul doesn't call him 'Detective' for nothing), a lot of Dr Who and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, stir well and serve chilled to fans. And then they blame an alleged Russian leak for the phenomenal drop in watching public. Yeah, right, as if the ones who found the elusive link could understand anything in its dubbed version! Pull the other one, Moftiss...

P.S. Looks to be after their meeting, since it was a complete agreed-upon plan. As if the Napoleon of crime could be manipulated by a murderous psychopath like himself! Making Moriarty the non-existent Holmes third sibling's pawn was one of those moments when I could have thrown something heavy at the screen and destroyed it!

[BLS_Pro]

They are two average U.K. scriptwriters

They are MANY things, but "average" is not one of them.  That is WHY we love the show, even if we don't love particular episodes. 

[BLS_Pro]

 

 

He doesn't say anything insightful or amazing. He just says cliche things about love and understanding for a few minutes. Then the bad guys who have been bad guys for their entire life decide to become good.

 

When I saw Sherlock talk Euros out of being evil I immediately thought of how Naruto talked Nagato out of being a mass murderer

 

Since this episode is so derivative I wonder if Moffat and Gatiss got inspiration from Naruto.

"Without doubt, she WILL kill again if she has the opportunity."

 

Yup.  You nailed it.  'Sherlock talked Eurus out of being evil'.

 

 

Sherlock to Euros after helping her land:

 

'Help me save my friend.'

 

So yes Sherlock did talk to her out of doing evil if it was just temporarily.

 

You said - and I said - "BEING evil" not "DOING a single evil act".  Nor was that your given (ridiculing) reference either.

 

AND - he played her First and Final Game - and won. Releasing John was what he won.

 

 

Why would Sherlock not want to play with his sister

:facepalm:

I'm done.  Bye.

 

[Inge l-w]

That is why we keep watching the show, we certainly don't have to love it!

[Arcadia]

Someone help me... Did this happen before or after Eurus met Moriarty:

 

If after, could that be what Moriarty meant? :o

I think it was before as well ... after Jim and Sherlock first met (I assume that's why Eurus wanted to meet him, to see what he could tell her about Sherlock) and before, obviously, Reichenbach.

 

I still haven't quite figured out who was the middle child ... Eurus or Sherlock? They said in the script but I still haven't figured out which child they meant, it goes by so fast. Sherlock looks younger to me in those childhood scenes, but then boys often do at that age, don't they? To me it makes sense that he's the youngest, but ....

 

Also relating to the time frame ... they said Eurus seemed to "wake up" after meeting Moriarty, or something to that effect. So I'm guessing that's when she began her takeover of the asylum ... but are we to think she was only able to complete her takeover recently? That's why she's only now "going after" Sherlock? Maybe when she "brain-washed" the governor ... does anyone remember when he said he did his interviews with her?

 

And finally, I just realized last night why the Governor seemed so familiar ... it's Art Malik!! Hari Kumar himself!!! (Anyone besides me remember Jewel in the Crown?) I thought he was excellent, even though it was a small role. I was surprised at how compelling he was, because the minor characters usually aren't.

[BLS_Pro]

Re-watching Fall.  Now I know why Redbeard is the word she says to Moriarty.  Now it can be argued Eurus is the one who gives Moriarty the idea for The Fall (ie the idea that he is a fraud etc). 

Sherlock: "Everybody wants to believe [the false story].  That's what's so clever: a lie that's preferable to the truth." 

 

And, of course, one can argue (especially since they explicitly included it in Final) that she met him before the end of S1.3 and told Moriarty to use the pool, since it wasn't only from Sherlock's remembered past but would be an allusion to his forgotten past.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

I enjoyed this episode more the second time around.

Ha! Another one! I feel so vindicated. Do you think if we watch it often enough, it will become our favorite episode? XD

 

Suuure! :D

If that was the solution, my favorite episode might have been TEH... I think I've seen that one (and TRF and ASIP, but they are among my faves) most times.

 

Well, now I am starting to wonder, because I've just seen it a third time (yes, I know), and it keeps growing on me.

 

I noticed a little detail this time around: There is a glimpse of Mycroft and Mr. and Mrs. Holmes at Sherrinford, in which Mummy covers Mycroft's hand with her own. As if to say that she forgives him. That was sweet

 

[sherlockandjohn]

The ending scene, though... makes me happy and teary at the same time! So love it! Mary's words are so beautiful: "There is a last refuge for the desperate, the unloved, the persecuted. There is a final court of appeal for everyone. When life gets too strange, too impossible, too frightening, there is always one last hope. When all else fails, there are two men sitting, arguing in a scruffy flat like they've always been there, and they always will".

 

Could this get any better? Not for me.

 

[J.P.]

 

And, of course, one can argue (especially since they explicitly included it in Final) that she met him before the end of S1.3 and told Moriarty to use the pool, since it wasn't only from Sherlock's remembered past but would be an allusion to his forgotten past.

Wasn't Sherlock the one who defined the meeting place?

Re: TRF - why would she do this? Killing Sherlock would rob her of the hope for a playmate.

 

Wait: what it Jim was her way to play with Sherlock? There are allusions to playing all over the episode. Now, wasn't it 5 years ago when they met? Would make it 2011-1012. Could work.

[Arcadia]

Arrgh! JP, you just fried my brain......

[Caya]

I thought they met when Mycroft had Moriarty in custody? So unless they only pretended that this was their first meeting, it must've happened sometime in S2.