Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[Arcadia]

Yep, the girl on the plane, discovering that all the adults were asleep. Then the phone rang, and Jim's voice welcoming her to the final problem. Then Mycroft watching an old movie, which is interrupted with family videos. Then a mysterious girl running up and down the stairs, and then the clown. I know, for a few minutes last night I was beginning to worry that PBS was broadcasting the wrong show. :D

[bedelia1984]

 

  

Yeah, but ... okay, how about this ... it didn't matter whether Molly cared about Sherlock, what mattered was that she had access to him. And I further deduce that Jim was learning about Sherlock's pressure points. He found John, Mrs. H and Lestrade ... but he didn't find Molly because Sherlock never showed her any consideration in front of him. So he still couldn't have revealed their relationshipto Eurus, because he didn't think they had one.

 

What do I win? :P

 

(Oh dear ... now it occurs to me that Jim didn't need to reveal Sherlock's attachment to Molly, he only needed to reveal her crush on Sherlock; and Sherlock's apparent indifference. That allowed Eurus to test how Sherlock dealt with Molly's affection; it didn't matter whether he returned it or not, it only mattered that he was humiliating her, and whether he could bring himself to do it. Drat. Well, heck, I still think I should win something. )

 

 

 

Well, (I hope I've not somehow started to argue against myself here)- but I think Sherlock and how he felt really was who it was all about. The bit about the indifference, for me, is that genuine indifference is usually silent as opposed to articulating at length about how dimissive you feel towards someone's obviously gay- pretending to be heterosexual date. It's the way a friend might talk to another- well, not most friends, but Sherlock would say it to John, too, and on some level it shows concern.

 

I think Eurus' reaction to what he says, when he says he won, is interesting too, her face falls, and I'm not sure if it was genuine or pretend sympathy for his stupidity. She was gambling on something else too- that he would be so worried about Molly being killed that he wouldn't suspect her of tricking him (when he should have maybe guessed it to be likely he could get Molly to say the words, and that the result of the game would be something different).

 

 

 

I think there are going to be cracks deepening if they were to keep to an every-three-years approach- Rosamund's age will be visible, Una Stubbs might well retire, and they lose momentum in some of the stories they are trying to tell too.

 

They can always make changes and incorporate them as story points.  The sort of changes you reference aren't an issue.

 

 

 

I do see what you mean, I guess my problem is I don't want us to miss out on these things- to come back and find Mrs Hudson has moved to Florida and Rosamund is in school... 

[Caya]

Very good suggestion, but 'it is what it is', the spoiler-free thread for discussion! We both got warned off two other threads as being spoilery. Need some more vivisection?

 

That's why I added the caveat above, Inge. The "no spoilers in existing threads", like I explained over at Johnlock's, is because activity in an existing thread is often a spoiler in and of itself (if, say, the Lestrade thread had exploded after ep3, one could reasonably assume something about that episode, spoiler boxes or no, even without entering the thread, and thus be accidentally spoilered). But a title like "Unsolved Mysteries Remaining After Series 4" is no spoiler in and of itself, and anyone going in there presumably does so with their eyes wide open, so it's okay by the modbook rules.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Here's my subthread:

 

http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/3562-the-final-problem-how-do-we-actually-enjoy-this-episode-spoilers-ahead/

 

Have fun!

[BLS_Pro]

 

I agree that a fuller exploration of her character would have 1) been interesting and 2) raised the suspense quotient ... as it is, we have to rely on our stereotypes of what psychopaths are capable of, instead of witnessing what this particular psychopath was capable of (dropping the three Garridebs into the ocean didn't exactly horrify me, because, frankly, I don't know them either.)

 

It's not for purposes of 'being interesting' and all insights into an antagonist should  'raise the suspense quotient' (it's bad writing when it doesn't).  But my point is more basic.  We're shown a character who makes no sense.  As we keep noting, it is as if she has two different personalities (and perhaps she does - its just NOT clear).  This means there is a disconnect somewhere which the writers aren't identifying - one which NEEDS to be identified and rectified, especially when they indicate that both personalities are supposedly somehow working towards a single, planned goal.

 

Basically, if this WERE two different people, we would have to have it explained HOW and WHY they were working together toward their common goal, especially if it doesn't make sense for one of them to BE working towards it and in fact seems to be working against it.

 

THAT's the problem.

 

The fact that it is ONE person just means we need a bit MORE of an explanation than we should get for two people.  My point is that we didn't get the two person version of the explanation we need, let alone the additional explanation required on top of that for it being one person.

 

(Was that last part intelligible?)

 

 

they would have needed to give her more screen time.

No.  They could eliminate everything up to Sherlock's return to the old homestead.  They could re-write that as Sherlock DISCOVERING his mental walls (as a result of his pulling on threads that had been flapping in his face since Bride), pulling them down brick by brick, and the catharsis involved in those things, all occurring while pursuing this woman who is supposedly a sister he didn't know he had (and all occurring BECAUSE -he- is pursuing her).  The whole episode could have exactly the same themes - about Eurus being both the villain and the person who needs saving - and could have been done as DRAMA, as meaningful, plot driven conflict, rather than pointless, Eurus driven "morality" plays.  They didn't need another episode.  They just needed to do BETTER writing - SHOWING, not TELLING.  Drama, NOT exposition dumps.

 

 

I can't find it in me to complain too much about spending most of it with Sherlock rather than his nutso sister.

My point and complaint is that they did NOT spend most of it with Sherlock.  They spent most of it with Eurus, who happened to be dragging Sherlock along on a leash. 

 

BIG difference.

 

 

I also think we could have used an emotional lull between this episode and the last ... most of us were still recovering from the breach in Sherlock and John's friendship, and how that (potentially) was going to affect them. But they had to rush right into the next thing as if TLD had never happened ... notice that none of the events there even get a nod in this one. Again, it would have been nice if they had constructed these episodes in such a way that the continuity felt more natural. But they didn't, and to be honest, I think I understand why. I think they didn't want to drag it out anymore.

I agree they needed to integrate 4.2 and 4.3 much better.  I don't believe that required a lull however.  In fact, the first 20 minutes or so (ie until we go to the island) that was pretty much boring - and useless bangs.  That was too much of a lull).

 

 

There is no hope of cure, only of treatment. It hurts, and the hurting doesn't stop. A lot of people can't take it, and escape the situation through drugs or abandonment or what have you. But not Sherlock effing Holmes; he marches straight into it, and in doing so, exposes his heart over and over.

I don't disagree.  I just don't see the "huge sacrifice" - again, what is he giving up that is supposedly the greater value?  NOT having her in his life?  NOT having her alive? 

 

There is a difference between easier and more valued/valuable.

[Boton]

 

 

 

Having a profoundly mentally ill person in your family is ... well, in some ways, death would be easier to take. (And now I begin to understand why Sherlock seems to have a rather cavalier attitude towards death...) The emotional toll is tremendous. Here we have a man who has avoided sentiment all his life, and now he is marching straight into it, week after week after week. For someone he doesn't remember, and possibly feels guilty about. (Deserved or not, guilt is a common reaction in this situation.) There is no hope of cure, only of treatment. It hurts, and the hurting doesn't stop. A lot of people can't take it, and escape the situation through drugs or abandonment or what have you. But not Sherlock effing Holmes; he marches straight into it, and in doing so, exposes his heart over and over. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he doesn't also feel that he is, in some way, doing penance for not being there for her earlier. Not logical, no, but very heartfelt.

 

 

 

 

I have to wonder if Sherlock doesn't find this therapeutic as well.  He has lived 35-ish years (if he's 40 here) with a repressed memory that is a hole in his own psyche.  He's probably had Mycroft telling him to simply shut down emotion and deal with everything logically, but he hasn't been able to. I'll bet it's part of why he turned to drugs; he thought it was boredom, but it might have been a manic need to stimulate to distract himself from a loss he can't even identify.

 

I like this personal head canon because it also takes some of the pressure off John Watson's character (and, secondarily, Lestrade's). Those two are usually given the "responsibility" for making Sherlock want to stay away from drugs, but what if his real motivation comes from being able to fill in his own blanks and have a family that is truly around him all the time?  (Not just Mummy, Daddy, and Mycroft, but then all of his friends as well.)  

 

No question, it is difficult to deal with a family member who is mentally ill.  But maybe Sherlock can turn this into something that allows him to be that well-rounded human being they are referring to, and any future cases will be back to fun and camaraderie.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

Having a profoundly mentally ill person in your family is ... well, in some ways, death would be easier to take. (And now I begin to understand why Sherlock seems to have a rather cavalier attitude towards death...) The emotional toll is tremendous. Here we have a man who has avoided sentiment all his life, and now he is marching straight into it, week after week after week. For someone he doesn't remember, and possibly feels guilty about. (Deserved or not, guilt is a common reaction in this situation.) There is no hope of cure, only of treatment. It hurts, and the hurting doesn't stop. A lot of people can't take it, and escape the situation through drugs or abandonment or what have you. But not Sherlock effing Holmes; he marches straight into it, and in doing so, exposes his heart over and over. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he doesn't also feel that he is, in some way, doing penance for not being there for her earlier. Not logical, no, but very heartfelt.

 

 

 

Sorry I am bouncing all over the place in reading and replying- and yes the thread is starting to look a bit like the inside of Eurus' head.

 

I've worked in the field of mental health for 9 years, and I think there are gains as well as sacrifices for Sherlock there. The thing I loved the most about it is that he is communicating with her without words- it seems like the perfect way to reach her (and I have a lot of investment in creative therapies myself). 

 

Also- how perfectly does this all echo TAB- a woman neglected and left out by men takes a murderous revenge- I'm not sure what to read into it with relation to how the writers think, but every aspect of that was planned, right down to the gravestones. Of course, I wouldn't like to see Sherlock take too much responsibility for his sister's decline in mental health- I do really wonder what her parents were doing when all this was going on, whilst she was doodling different ways to kill her brother.

[BLS_Pro]

Did i miss something? I recorded the episode to watch later and when i started it, it showed Mycroft being chased by a clown. No opening credits or anything like a start of the show was apparent. What happened before that?

 

You missed about two minutes (plus the credits).

 

We start with the girl on the plane.  She discovers everyone asleep.  She becomes afraid.  She hears a phone ringing, finds it, and asks for help.  Moriarty answers the crying girl, saying "Hello.  My name is Jim Moriarty, welcome to The Final Problem"  Cut to credits.

 

[Arcadia]

Well, (I hope I've not somehow started to argue against myself here)

I know! I'm starting to forget what point I was trying to make. Moftiss would be so pleased. :D

 

- but I think Sherlock and how he felt really was who it was all about.

Oh, I quite agree. So did you persuade me, or did I persuade you? :P

 

I think Sherlock, in his way, loves Molly. I just don't think it's the kind of love she wants from him. And it occurs to me it's often portrayed as very shaming for a man, to receive the love of a woman that he does not return. And shame is something that men in particular do not deal well with. Again, not logical, but this episode isn't about that, is it? Like most of my favorite episodes, it's about the mysteries of the heart.

 

But I digress.

 

I think Eurus' reaction to what he says, when he says he won, is interesting too, her face falls, and I'm not sure if it was genuine or pretend sympathy for his stupidity. She was gambling on something else too- that he would be so worried about Molly being killed that he wouldn't suspect her of tricking him (when he should have maybe guessed it to be likely he could get Molly to say the words, and that the result of the game would be something different).

Yeah, I need to see the ending again. Still processing. Slow hard drive.

[BLS_Pro]

 

 

I think there are gains as well as sacrifices for Sherlock there

I see where I'm having a problem with your statement.  Loss and Sacrifice are NOT synonymous.  While all sacrifice is loss, not all loss is sacrifice (in fact most loss is NOT sacrifice).

It is true that Sherlock loses some things by being in a relationship with Eurus, just as there are gains for him being in a relationship with Eurus.  But ALL trades, all actions, involve loss.  To walk, you have to lose energy, etc.  The question of sacrifice - and profit - is the relationship between the value of what you lose and the value of what you gain.  If you lose something of lesser value to you than that which you gain, that is profit, not sacrifice.  If you lose something of greater value to you than that which you gain, then that is sacrifice.  You have given up the greater value for the lesser value - you've lost a million dollars but gained 100 (for easy example).  That is a sacrifice.  You lose 100 dollars but gain a million.  That is not a sacrifice.  That is a profit.
 

[BLS_Pro]

 

Also- how perfectly does this all echo TAB- a woman neglected and left out by men takes a murderous revenge- I'm not sure what to read into it with relation to how the writers think, but every aspect of that was planned, right down to the gravestones.

This isn't an echo of Bride.  Bride was all ABOUT Eurus.  I was saying that before Final aired.  And they even SHOWED part of Bride in Final.  ALL of it is about Eurus (and Redbeard), right down to the Waterfall.

 

Bride is like Sixth Sense.  Once you know the 'secret', its a completely different film.

 

 

[bedelia1984]

 

Well, (I hope I've not somehow started to argue against myself here)

I know! I'm starting to forget what point I was trying to make. Moftiss would be so pleased. :D

 

- but I think Sherlock and how he felt really was who it was all about.

Oh, I quite agree. So did you persuade me, or did I persuade you? :P

 

I think Sherlock, in his way, loves Molly. I just don't think it's the kind of love she wants from him. And it occurs to me it's often portrayed as very shaming for a man, to receive the love of a woman that he does not return. And shame is something that men in particular do not deal well with. Again, not logical, but this episode isn't about that, is it? Like most of my favorite episodes, it's about the mysteries of the heart.

 

But I digress.

 

I think Eurus' reaction to what he says, when he says he won, is interesting too, her face falls, and I'm not sure if it was genuine or pretend sympathy for his stupidity. She was gambling on something else too- that he would be so worried about Molly being killed that he wouldn't suspect her of tricking him (when he should have maybe guessed it to be likely he could get Molly to say the words, and that the result of the game would be something different).

Yeah, I need to see the ending again. Still processing. Slow hard drive.

 

 

I want a re-watch too, but its also one of those scenes that almost feels too personal, like I feel bad watching it. I felt so bad for Molly that Mycroft (of all people) listening to her. Of all the people to hear you pour your heart out! I mean, Eurus too, of course, but I picture Mycroft being even more eye-rolly (though outwardly he was quite sweet about it).

 

I would veer the other side and say, well yes their feelings for each other are not the same, but he has some more interest in her than as a friend too- but he deliberately won't explore it. I've been so confused by this scene and the whys and wherefores of how and why Molly is there, that I'm not really sure what to think. I also have to wonder does anybody else in the show love as purely as Molly Hooper? I sometimes think Louise is a little bit wasted on this show, they trot her out so rarely, and this season she's been more of a caretaker than anything.

[Arcadia]

Rather than multi-quote ... I see Sherlock's visiting his sister as a "sacrifice" because ... well, for one thing just because he now accepts the value of emotion in his life, it doesn't mean it's going to be easy for him. He's giving up peace of mind in return for helping someone. He's risking his heart. There's a considerable investment of time involved, time devoted to someone other than himself. Stuff like that. Stuff he's not used to doing. It's a disruption in your life, and there's not much return. It wears a person out.

 

But I agree it could also be therapeutic for him as well as her. Which he's also resistant to, don't you think?

[BLS_Pro]

Rather than multi-quote ... I see Sherlock's visiting his sister as a "sacrifice" because ... well, for one thing just because he now accepts the value of emotion in his life, it doesn't mean it's going to be easy for him. He's giving up peace of mind in return for helping someone. He's risking his heart. There's a considerable investment of time involved, time devoted to someone other than himself. Stuff like that. Stuff he's not used to doing. It's a disruption in your life, and there's not much return. It wears a person out.

 

But I agree it could also be therapeutic for him as well as her. Which he's also resistant to, don't you think?

Again, I don't disagree that it will be less "easy for him".  I simply disagree that less easy is synonymous with sacrifice.  And I disagree that there's not much "return" (and that's not including any theraputic side effects).

 

[bedelia1984]

Arcadia- I'll avoid all the quotes too, but your points are along my way of thinking.

 

The sacrifice for Sherlock is about what he is giving up- which is something of his old self. He gives up his distance, his way of living, he gives up a bit of his solitude- and the thing about this is, it is a long game. So when BLS_Pro is saying he may gain more than he loses- that might be true in the future, but the hard work in between is what Arcadia is talking about, I think and that's how I define the sacrifice, too.

 

The way work with a person with mental illness sometimes works is that you keep putting in that time and effort, and you hope there is a payback, but there may not be, and actually their condition might get much worse.

 

As much time as Sherlock puts in, there is no telling that the first time she has the chance she won't kill again- or even become more attached to him and more bent on destroying any people in his life she sees as competition. I think it is a great way for him to learn about love incidentally- as something you give without knowing what you'll get back.

 

 

[BLS_Pro]

Arcadia- I'll avoid all the quotes too, but your points are along my way of thinking.

 

The sacrifice for Sherlock is about what he is giving up- which is something of his old self. He gives up his distance, his way of living, he gives up a bit of his solitude- and the thing about this is, it is a long game. So when BLS_Pro is saying he may gain more than he loses- that might be true in the future, but the hard work in between is what Arcadia is talking about, I think and that's how I define the sacrifice, too.

 

The way work with a person with mental illness sometimes works is that you keep putting in that time and effort, and you hope there is a payback, but there may not be, and actually their condition might get much worse.

 

As much time as Sherlock puts in, there is no telling that the first time she has the chance she won't kill again- or even become more attached to him and more bent on destroying any people in his life she sees as competition. I think it is a great way for him to learn about love incidentally- as something you give without knowing what you'll get back.

So when a person gives up a hundred dollars in the hopes of achieving a million dollars in the future, even if there's a chance he won't see that future, that's a sacrifice?  That makes essentially every act a sacrifice, because there are never guarantees that an expenditure of anything will result in what one hoped for when deciding to lose that expenditure.

 

Again, it is defining loss AS sacrifice.  They ain't the same.

 

Also, I'm not arguing that what he gains is the 'hope' she will get better (though that can certainly be something he would want to gain).  The playing with her, the living life with her, the experience of being with her, is the gain - as it is for him with John.  Not any particular result.  His working with John is NOT a sacrifice if John doesn't achieve some particular goal in the future which Sherlock hopes he will achieve.  One's friendship and love (for her, or John, or anyone else) is not a MEANS to some OTHER end.

 

IT is the value.

 

And it is MORE valuable to Sherlock than his solitude or any thing else he might give up to have that love and friendship. 

 

THAT has been the whole point of the series (what we were saying before about love being the heart of the series).

[Arcadia]

 

I would veer the other side and say, well yes their feelings for each other are not the same, but he has some more interest in her than as a friend too- but he deliberately won't explore it. I've been so confused by this scene and the whys and wherefores of how and why Molly is there, that I'm not really sure what to think. I also have to wonder does anybody else in the show love as purely as Molly Hooper? I sometimes think Louise is a little bit wasted on this show, they trot her out so rarely, and this season she's been more of a caretaker than anything.

 

Oh, yes. The moment John told him to go after Irene, my brain went "Forget Irene, Molly's right there, and she won't betray you the first chance she gets." (I'm afraid I don't have quite the romantic view of Irene that the men seem to.) But he thinks he might love Irene, so he's got to be loyal to her? Ha ha, like she would return the favor.

 

He's made a lot of disparaging comments about marriage and "domesticity", so I assume he thinks that is not what he wants out of life, and that Molly does. He may even be right. At any rate, I'm willing to bet he thinks he's being "honorable" towards Molly. And maybe he is. God forbid he should talk to her about it.

 

[danh19]

i found to be one of the best episodes in the series if not the best one from the writing acting directing everything was spot on it was near perfect entertainment

[T.o.b.y]

Something just occurred to me - one of Sherlock's deductions about "Faith" was correct. Euros cut herself as a child. So she really must have had scars on her forearm!

[Caya]

i found to be one of the best episodes in the series if not the best one from the writing acting directing everything was spot on it was near perfect entertainment

 

Hello danh19 and welcome to the forum!

 

While I'm not sure I can agree with that assessment, I'm happy for you that you loved it so much - if you can, tell us in more detail what exactly you found makes it so exceptional.

[danh19]

anyone else think that mycroft was at his best in the latest episode he seemed to get more to do in this episode and found the character and the acting mark to be at the best in the series history

Edited January 16, 2017 by Caya
Moved here from Mycroft thread because of spoilers bound to follow in discussion

[Arcadia]

Also, I'm not arguing that what he gains is the 'hope' she will get better (though that can certainly be something he would want to gain).  The playing with her, the living life with her, the experience of being with her, is the gain - as it is with John.  Not any particular result.  His working with John is NOT a sacrifice if John doesn't achieve some particular goal in the future.  The friendship and love (for her, or John, or anyone else) is not a MEANS to some OTHER end.

 

IT is the value.

 

And it is MORE valuable to him than his solitude or any thing else he might give up to have that love and friendship.

 

THAT has been the whole point of the series (what we were saying before about love being the heart of the series).

 

That's quite lovely, and I like the thought. But I'm not comparing what he gains and loses, frankly. I'm just thinking about how difficult it is for ordinary people to make such significant changes to their lives. But Sherlock's extraordinary, isn't he?

[bedelia1984]

 

 

I would veer the other side and say, well yes their feelings for each other are not the same, but he has some more interest in her than as a friend too- but he deliberately won't explore it. I've been so confused by this scene and the whys and wherefores of how and why Molly is there, that I'm not really sure what to think. I also have to wonder does anybody else in the show love as purely as Molly Hooper? I sometimes think Louise is a little bit wasted on this show, they trot her out so rarely, and this season she's been more of a caretaker than anything.

 

Oh, yes. The moment John told him to go after Irene, my brain went "Forget Irene, Molly's right there, and she won't betray you the first chance she gets." (I'm afraid I don't have quite the romantic view of Irene that the men seem to.) But he thinks he might love Irene, so he's got to be loyal to her? Ha ha, like she would return the favor.

 

He's made a lot of disparaging comments about marriage and "domesticity", so I assume he thinks that not what he wants out of life, and that Molly does. He may even be right. At any rate, I'm willing to bet he thinks he's being "honorable" towards Molly. And maybe he is. God forbid he should talk to her about it.

 

 

 

I know, right what is wrong with both John and Stephen Moffat?! I do get how Irene has become this sort of romantic ideal for him- and why it would appeal to a man, and why he would be flattered by her interest. But, as you say, I don't picture Irene off pining for Sherlock anywhere- and I don't think he wants her to. Sometimes it's nice to just have an idea of someone you could be with, but to be alone, because you prefer to be alone, with a dream, and I kind of see her as that for Sherlock. I thought he kind of acknowledged that when he brushed aside John's guess so quickly- that he doesn't expect her to still be thinking of him.

 

If he would talk to her, that would be incredible. But that is partly what I mean about what we lose in these gaps. So much time will have gone by the next (I hope, I have to keep saying that or i'll jinx us) series, that little things like that get dropped, or happen offscreen. Then again, it is in character that he would avoid talking to her too.

[Arcadia]

i found to be one of the best episodes in the series if not the best one from the writing acting directing everything was spot on it was near perfect entertainment

 

Greetings, Danh! Welcome! Glad you enjoyed it so much. I'm liking it better all the time myself.

 

What did you think of the other two episodes?

[bedelia1984]

 

 

Also, I'm not arguing that what he gains is the 'hope' she will get better (though that can certainly be something he would want to gain).  The playing with her, the living life with her, the experience of being with her, is the gain - as it is with John.  Not any particular result.  His working with John is NOT a sacrifice if John doesn't achieve some particular goal in the future.  The friendship and love (for her, or John, or anyone else) is not a MEANS to some OTHER end.

 

IT is the value.

 

And it is MORE valuable to him than his solitude or any thing else he might give up to have that love and friendship.

 

THAT has been the whole point of the series (what we were saying before about love being the heart of the series).

 

 

That's quite lovely, and I like the thought. But I'm comparing what he gains and loses, frankly. I'm just thinking about how difficult it is for ordinary people to make such significant changes to their lives. But Sherlock's extraordinary, isn't he?

 

 

And then again, there is the possibility that he's not going for any gains or sacrifices, but rather because Eurus has brainwashed him. I wonder what she'll have him do next...

 

Kidding (mostly).