The Language (and travel) Thread

[Carol the Dabbler]

I really like [John Watson], both in the original novels and short stories and in the TV series. It's also important to say that in the Spanish version Jesús Maniega -undoubtedly my favourite dubbing actor- gives his voice to Martin Freeman and that's maybe a reason why I like the character so much...

 

I understand just a bit of Spanish, so I'd be interested in hearing Jesús Maniega's dubbed version, Rubpe19.  Do you know if there's any of it on YouTube?

 

[Rubpe19]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any cut of the series on Youtube. However, here you have this video ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RbLb51ok5w0) in which the actor explaina his view about dubbing. Besides, I found this ( http://www.antena3.com/series/sherlock/noticias/ivan-muelas-doblar-sherlock-sus-rapidas-conclusiones-resulta-complicado_2012021600073.html) , where Iván Muelas, who dubs Sherlock (also known for his work with Nathan Fillion in 'Castle'), is interviewed.

 

I have to say that I really value their job, although this is not common amongst the rest of Spaniards, having even been proposed its prohibition. Regards!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks, Rubpe19!  Even though he's talking a bit faster than I can listen, I really enjoyed the video of Jesús Maniega.  I can even imagine him playing Watson if there's ever a Spanish movie or  television show about Sherlock Holmes.

 

Unfortunately, the other other video doesn't seem to exist for me.  That's the first time I've ever gotten a "not found" error in Spanish!

 

[Rubpe19]

Maybe I didn't copy the link appropriately. Please, try with this (although it's in Spanish): http://www.antena3.com/series/sherlock/noticias/ivan-muelas-doblar-sherlock-sus-rapidas-conclusiones-resulta-complicado_2012021600073.html

[Carol the Dabbler]

Much better!  Thanks.  And it's a print Q&A, so I can read it at my own speed.  ("Benedict habla a toda velocidad...."  :lol2: )  And that's a nice photo of the voice actor.  I can imagine him playing Sherlock in that future Spanish production.

 

... I really value their job, although this is not common amongst the rest of Spaniards, having even been proposed its prohibition.

 

Most Spaniards don't want foreign movies dubbed into Spanish?  Do they prefer the original soundtrack with Spanish subtitles?

 

[Rubpe19]

There was a time when the debate about it was quite heated (even a political party promised they'd forbid it were they to win the elections). The point is that some of them argue that the voice and how the actor speaks is really, really important, essential, so they think they shouldn't be dubbed. However, I believe that it is a really serious job and that we may have the best dubbing actors and actesses in the world. I personally enjoy with a good dubbing and maybe that's why I appreciate this kind of actors and actresses that much -especially Maniega.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I can see both sides of that argument.  Subtitles preserve the original voices, but distract your eyes from the original faces.  Dubbing lets you concentrate more on what the actors are doing, but deprives you of hearing their voices.

 

In any case, I can't imagine this being a matter for the government to decide.  People who want to see subtitled movies should be free to do so, and likewise people who want to see dubbed movies.  Then the studios can decide which to make available, depending on the expected audience for each.

 

[Rubpe19]

By the way, here you have a short text about it, in case you want to read it: http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/cultura/toni-canto-carlos-saura-piden-que-prohiba-doblaje_2014032700272.html

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks!  I've just skimmed that article (since even reading Spanish is a bit of a challenge for me), and this seems to sum up the debate:

 

Toni Cantó asegura que "cada vez hay más gente que prefiere ver cine en versión original", pero el presidente de la Academia de Cine, Enrique González-Macho, no está de acuerdo: "Si lo consideraran tan importante, irían todos a verla en V.O. y no van".

 

Toni Cantó assures us that "every day there are more people who prefer to see movies in the original version," but the president of the Academy of Cinema, Enrique González-Macho, doesn't agree: "If they considered it so important, everyone would go to see the original version, and they don't."

 

But I am still puzzled as to why this is considered a legitimate matter for government consideration.  Is the Spanish film industry basically a government agency, analogous to the BBC?

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any cut of the series on Youtube....

 

While trying to figure out which thread to move these posts to, I came across this composite video of one scene in six languages:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9mKQ3EI35cg

 

Is that Jesús Maniega (as John) and Iván Muelas in the Spanish version?

 

There's been a good bit of discussion earlier in this thread (as well as elsewhere on the forum, e.g., here) about the German dubbing, wherein Sherlock and John continue to address each other as "Sie" (equivalent to "usted") until midway through Series 3.  I'm glad to hear them using "tu" right away in the Spanish dubbing.  Do you happen to recall whether they immediately used "tu" at Bart's (since they were both friends of Mike Stamford), or did they say "usted" until they met again at Baker Street (and Sherlock asked John to call him "Sherlock" instead of "Mr. Holmes"), or what?

[Rubpe19]

Yes, they are definetely Iván and Jesús... I may be wrong, but, I reckon that during the first moments, they used to refer to each other by using the "usted"-form. Although that isn't really common now — sadly —, it would be the normal: you begin that way and, once you know each other better, you can start calling the other by "tú". Nonetheless, I believe that must be really tough for the people in charge of translating the script into Spanish, since in English there is no concrete way for "usted", is there? Regards!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yes, they are definetely Iván and Jesús...

 

Thanks!

 

I may be wrong, but, I reckon that during the first moments, they used to refer to each other by using the "usted"-form. Although that isn't really common now....

 

I would assume that they did, simply because it matches their behavior in English, with John addressing Sherlock as "Mr. Holmes" until Sherlock asks him to use his first name. And I suppose that little scene was a nod to the Conan Doyle stories, where they always addressed one another as "Holmes" and "Watson." The episode acknowledges that history, but then brings it up to date.

 

... that must be really tough for the people in charge of translating the script into Spanish, since in English there is no concrete way for "usted", is there?

 

Actually, there is. As you're probably aware, the Spanish word "usted" is an abbreviation of the old phrase "vuestra merced," literally your mercy, like addressing someone as "Your Grace" in English. Furthermore, "vuestra" is the plural "your," analogous to the royal "we."

 

English has a similar history to a point. We started using the plural "you" as a sign of respect for a royal or noble person, and ended up using it routinely. In other words, the English word "you" is the old plural. The old singular form "thou" is hardly used nowadays, other than in certain religious contexts.  So yes, there is an English equivalent of "usted" -- but there is no longer an equivalent of "tú."

 

So "usted" is dying out these days as well?

[Inge l-w]

Nope! If I didn't use "usted" with my Spanish colleagues, we'd would have a fight on our hands, because it is the direct translation of "Lei" in Italian and "Sie" in German! Propriety and good manners above all!

[J.P.]

Carol:

English has a similar history to a point. We started using the plural "you" as a sign of respect for a royal or noble person, and ended up using it routinely. In other words, the English word "you" is the old plural. The old singular form "thou" is hardly used nowadays, other than in certain religious contexts.  So yes, there is an English equivalent of "usted" -- but there is no longer an equivalent of "tú."

 

Oh, I didn't know that! Well, that changes things a bit.

[Rubpe19]

I have to say that, among young people -unfortunately- 'usted' is not used much, at least in Spain. However, I think that most people use it in other to talk to older people.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Our teachers taught us all the forms, of course, but in our classroom conversations, we were told to use only "usted," because it would be the most useful form if we traveled to a Spanish-speaking country.  So I don't know the familiar forms well at all.  So of course the few times that I've had occasion to actually use what little Spanish I remember, it's been a "tú" situation.

 

There has been a similar change in American English usage over the past few decades.  When I was a kid, grownups didn't seem to have first names.  We called them Mr. or Mrs. or Miss, and so did our parents most of the time.  Nowadays, people don't even ask if it's OK, they just start right off calling you by your first name.  It's nice in a way, but still feels overly-familar sometimes.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

At the church I grew up in, there were only 2 people we called by a title and their last name.  Neither were the pastor (1 was his uncle and I forget if the other was related to him).  The pastor was title and first name.  However, all of my teachers are still title and last name even if they have given me permission to use their first name, although I do use the first name with one of them to distinguish her from her sister-in-law who teaches at the same school.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Right, church was the only exception to the title+surname rule.  Everyone there was on a first-name basis, regardless of age (except for the pastor, who was always Rev. Whoever).  So the neighbors who went to the same church as us were Herb & Jane, even to us kids, whereas the equally-friendly neighbors who attended a different church (though of the same denomination) were Mr. & Mrs., even to my parents.

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear SherlockedCamper, I do so feel for you! As mentioned several times elsewhere, I teach 18+ students at Technical University, so formal language is a must! In German, like French, it is very, very difficult for a student to address a senior other than by "Sie" , "Vous" in French, but it becomes slightly ridiculous when one of your first students, when you were barely out of university yourself, continues to address you with "Sie" although she is past thirty and expecting her first child ( may all higher powers that be help in that endeavour)!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Here is a brief tour of the history of the English language, focusing on the many reasons that the spelling is so weird.

 

[Arcadia]

It's not weird, it's just ... different!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think one thing that tends to bother people from certain other countries is that there's no "official" English language.

 

I don't know if this is still the case, but I've heard that in France and Germany there are/were government agencies in charge of things like spelling and vocabulary.  So I think people from such countries tend to think of the rule-laden English they learned in school as "correct," meaning of course that the actual language of English-speaking countries must be "incorrect."

 

When a German friend of ours complained about the improper English spoken hereabouts, I explained that most Americans are perfectly capable of speaking standard English (i.e., school English), but we also speak our local dialect.  We're not illiterate, we're bilingual!  Apparently that's also the case back in Germany, so that made sense to her.

 

[Caya]

There is indeed an "official" orthography in German-speaking countries, and it has been established and reformed several times by the affected nations working together - here's the Wikipedia entry on the latest such reform. Of course, that's a lot easier when only a handful of countries are affected, I can't even begin to imagine the effort this would take for English.

 

And yes, of course we have dialects and even rules for writing them out, too, but written German is mostly standard German, unless it's quoting someone or a song text or similar.

 

eta: I should add that, in German, a standard language is quite necessary for understanding. To the best of my knowledge, any given native English speaker will understand any other native English speaker, maybe with difficulties, but they'll be able to converse even speaking their native dialects. In German, that's not so much the case. Someone speaking in one of the more fiendish Swiss dialects won't be understood by a native from Berlin and vice versa, most likely, unless they tone down their dialects. Admittedly, in the era of satellite/cable TV this has become much less pronounced, though, as everybody's watching German channels .

[sittything]

Here is a brief tour of the history of the English language, focusing on the many reasons that the spelling is so weird.

I'm just reading this now, but apparently Canadians retained the original way of pronouncing "out" as "oot."

[sittything]

That's interesting.  I didn't realize that so many English words had their spelling changed to more resemble the Latin root word.  I just assumed the spelling were because of their Latin origins.