Episode 2.1, "A Scandal In Belgravia"

[Dragonslayer]

What I missed in this chapter was Holmes' admiration for Irene.

In the book, she is The Woman for Sherlock because she really outwitted him there.

In the show we have Irene, literally, beating Sherlock. And that Irene in fact is beaten by Sherlock in tbe end.

not happy with the lost message there ...

[Arcadia]

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I've read very few of the stories, and not that one. Tried, just can't get into them too much. But then, I've never been much for short stories anyway. Tried Study in Scarlet but it was .... oddly structured, shall we say? I suppose I should give Hounds a try.

[Dragonslayer]

Hounds is definitely worth a try.

Though the books are not to everyone's tastes. I have friends who still haven't read it.

 

But even outside the context of the book imo, Holmes admiring Adler because she beat him would be more beluevable than the romantic affection shown in the show. It is just more like Sherlock.

[sfmpco]

Just finished watching this episode for the 4th or 5th time.  I told another Sherlock fan that I was missing some of the dialogue, and she suggested watching it with subtitles.  It helped in some places but the subtitles were obviously inaccurate in others.  

 

I think this episode really shows a growth spurt in Sherlock's emotional character, and we see that Mycroft, as emotionally distant as he tries to be, has genuine concern for his little brother, afraid that Sherlock will relapse into drugs again after Irene's supposed death.  Testing Sherlock's emotional stability with a cigarette was like tempting an alcoholic with a glass of wine.  One cigarette had the potential to put him back into a downward spiral of addiction, so Mycroft already had John and Mrs. Hudson search the apartment from top to bottom for any type of drug paraphernalia.  Sherlock is Mycroft's "pressure point."  

 

As for Irene Adler, I don't think there was any kind of true love but a certain infatuation on both sides, an infatuation that opened up Sherlock ever so slightly.  Clearly he had very caring feelings towards Mrs. Hudson after he freed her, and he cared enough for John not to let him be shot. So in this episode he saves the lives of two people close to him.   With Irene Adler presenting herself completely naked, it catches him off guard to the point where he stumbles over his own words and can't get a reading on her.

 

Did he save Irene in Karachi?  Absolutely he did.  This is part of his lack of response to John's telling him that Irene was tucked away in witness protection in the USA.  He knew John was lying and didn't call him out on it.  He let John carry on with the lie and let him off the hook by letting it slide.  What were Mycroft's words to John just before?  "It would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me, and I don't think he was there, do you?"  Might not be entirely accurate in quote but pretty close.  At any rate, the whole point was that Sherlock has everyone fooled.  

 

One thing Irene has on every other woman - she can claim she was in Sherlock's bed.  And leave at that.

[sfmpco]

Another interesting thing is that he says, almost as a challenge, "I never beg for mercy," and when she determinedly restates, "twice," - keep it mind that it is she who later is the one to beg for mercy - twice.

[Arcadia]

Another interesting thing is that he says, almost as a challenge, "I never beg for mercy," and when she determinedly restates, "twice," - keep it mind that it is she who later is the one to beg for mercy - twice.

That right there is the kind of thing I never catch! Good one, sfmpco.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

One thing Irene has on every other woman - she can claim she was in Sherlock's bed.  And leave at that.

 

  Well....until Janine came along anyway. But then, Irene did it in a more cheeky way then Sherlock trying to seduce her for information that's true.

[sfmpco]

 

 

One thing Irene has on every other woman - she can claim she was in Sherlock's bed.  And leave at that.

 

  Well....until Janine came along anyway. But then, Irene did it in a more cheeky way then Sherlock trying to seduce her for information that's true.

 

 

Hmm... well, it may be implied that they would have shared a bed, but it would be hard to share a bed in a platonic way, especially when Janine was definitely interested in him, but Sherlock clearly says in the hospital that no sex had happened because he was waiting for marriage, so it makes me think they didn't share a bed.  After all, what warm blooded woman could be in bed with Sherlock for untold amount of time without being ready to have her ovaries explode?  Not hormonally realistic.  She would have jumped his bones.  So perhaps she had John's old room.

 

I still say Irene was the only one who was ever in his bed.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Welll....Janine was coming out of Sherlock's room dressed only in a oversized shirt....one of Sherlock's?  If she wasn't in Sherlock's bed...what was she doing there barely dressed while Sherlock was out trying to get himself written up in the paper for drug use? It isn't like there's a lot of furniture for a guest to use in his bedroom but for the bed.

 

 And for the life of me, I don't see Janine as the type of person to blythfully sit on the floor waiting for his return.

[sfmpco]

Welll....Janine was coming out of Sherlock's room dressed only in a oversized shirt....one of Sherlock's?  If she wasn't in Sherlock's bed...what was she doing there barely dressed while Sherlock was out trying to get himself written up in the paper for drug use? It isn't like there's a lot of furniture for a guest to use in his bedroom but for the bed.

 

 And for the life of me, I don't see Janine as the type of person to blythfully sit on the floor waiting for his return.

 

Well, Janine DID have a job to go to.  Still although she may have been in one of Sherlock's shirts, and although he kissed her as if they were in some sort of relationship, it wasn't anything physical, and she would have been trying to make it physical if she were sharing his bed and dressing in only his shirt.

[sfmpco]

Okay, so back to the topic... there are still things in this episode I don't quite get - like after John had been dropped off at that location my Mycroft's assistant to meet Irene, who did the assistant text to "You're right.  He think's it's Mycroft."  Was it Irene?  Or Moriarty?

[Janie]

 

 

Welll....Janine was coming out of Sherlock's room dressed only in a oversized shirt....one of Sherlock's? If she wasn't in Sherlock's bed...what was she doing there barely dressed while Sherlock was out trying to get himself written up in the paper for drug use? It isn't like there's a lot of furniture for a guest to use in his bedroom but for the bed.

 

And for the life of me, I don't see Janine as the type of person to blythfully sit on the floor waiting for his return.

Well, Janine DID have a job to go to. Still although she may have been in one of Sherlock's shirts, and although he kissed her as if they were in some sort of relationship, it wasn't anything physical, and she would have been trying to make it physical if she were sharing his bed and dressing in only his shirt.

Well, where do you think she spent the night? She clearly came out of Sherlock's bedroom in the morning so I suppose she had been there all night. And like Fox said, she was hardly sleeping on the floor

[sfmpco]

 

 

Welll....Janine was coming out of Sherlock's room dressed only in a oversized shirt....one of Sherlock's?  If she wasn't in Sherlock's bed...what was she doing there barely dressed while Sherlock was out trying to get himself written up in the paper for drug use? It isn't like there's a lot of furniture for a guest to use in his bedroom but for the bed.

 

 And for the life of me, I don't see Janine as the type of person to blythfully sit on the floor waiting for his return.

 

Well, Janine DID have a job to go to.  Still although she may have been in one of Sherlock's shirts, and although he kissed her as if they were in some sort of relationship, it wasn't anything physical, and she would have been trying to make it physical if she were sharing his bed and dressing in only his shirt.

 

 

Well, when do you think she spent the night? She clearly came out of Sherlock's bedroom in the morning so I suppose she had been there all night. And like Fox said, she was hardly sleeping on the floor

 

 

[Janie]

Okay, so back to the topic... there are still things in this episode I don't quite get - like after John had been dropped off at that location my Mycroft's assistant to meet Irene, who did the assistant text to "You're right.  He think's it's Mycroft."  Was it Irene?  Or Moriarty?

 

I always thought it was Irene since John met her and not Moriarty. But it's possible that Moriarty somehow helped her. I never really thought of that.

[sfmpco]

 

Okay, so back to the topic... there are still things in this episode I don't quite get - like after John had been dropped off at that location my Mycroft's assistant to meet Irene, who did the assistant text to "You're right.  He think's it's Mycroft."  Was it Irene?  Or Moriarty?

 

I always thought it was Irene since John met her and not Moriarty. But it's possible that Moriarty somehow helped her. I never really thought of that.

 

 

Either way, then Mycroft knows that Irene was never dead because he'd have known what the assistant was up to.  And Sherlock realized something was up because he immediately followed.

 

If Mycroft wasn't involved, why did Irene reach out to the assistant?  And why would the assistant help without informing Mycroft?  

[Carol the Dabbler]

Okay, so back to the topic... there are still things in this episode I don't quite get - like after John had been dropped off at that location my Mycroft's assistant to meet Irene, who did the assistant text to "You're right.  He think's it's Mycroft."  Was it Irene?  Or Moriarty?

 

I don't believe that woman was one of Mycroft's assistants.  She was definitely not "Anthea."  So I assume she was working for Irene, and therefore it was Irene that she phoned.  I don't think Mycroft was involved here at all (except in John's head).

 

Well, Janine DID have a job to go to.  Still although she may have been in one of Sherlock's shirts, and although he kissed her as if they were in some sort of relationship, it wasn't anything physical, and she would have been trying to make it physical if she were sharing his bed and dressing in only his shirt.

 

Well, when do you think she spent the night? She clearly came out of Sherlock's bedroom in the morning so I suppose she had been there all night. And like Fox said, she was hardly sleeping on the floor

 

I think you're both right -- she presumably spent the night in Sherlock's bed -- but not with Sherlock (since he hadn't been home).

[T.o.b.y]

I wonder whether, if Karachi really happened (or rather since I suppose they meant it to have really happened), we're supposed to infer that at some point around that event, Irene did end up in the great detective's bed while it was occupied by him as well. I mean, if he has her running around with no clothes on in his mind palace and fondling his face regularly, one would think he'd have something to go on.

 

On the other hand, if they did meet up after the terrorists were dead, it might just as well have gone the way a favorite scene of mine from a play I read years ago went: A (also very brilliant) man finds himself, through circumstances I cannot recall, in a brothel. He asks one of the ladies who work there what one can do with them, and she says "for the right price - anything you like". So he pays her and then teaches her to play chess, because that is what he really wants to do at that moment. Later, she says he was the first and only man who ever did what he really wanted in her presence. I always thought that was rather sweet.

 

We'll never know in Sherlock's case, thank goodness. At least I hope so.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

The point I was trying to make was that Janine at least slept in Sherlock's bed, as Irene did as well. Whether or not Sherlock was ever in the bed at the time, really to me, is not relevant.

[Arcadia]

 

Okay, so back to the topic... there are still things in this episode I don't quite get - like after John had been dropped off at that location my Mycroft's assistant to meet Irene, who did the assistant text to "You're right.  He think's it's Mycroft."  Was it Irene?  Or Moriarty?

 

I don't believe that woman was one of Mycroft's assistants.  She was definitely not "Anthea."  So I assume she was working for Irene, and therefore it was Irene that she phoned.  I don't think Mycroft was involved here at all (except in John's head).

 

Sfmpco, I was confused by that too; the first 2-3 times I saw this episode, I thought it was Anthea as well. I finally realized it wasn't, just a similar looking woman. So as to be attractive to John, perhaps?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I never did think it was Anthea. John would have known immediately who she was. Anthea is darker complected, if I am remembering right. Taller too, I think.

[Arcadia]

The point I was trying to make was that Janine at least slept in Sherlock's bed, as Irene did as well. Whether or not Sherlock was ever in the bed at the time, really to me, is not relevant.

Bet it was pretty relevant to Irene and Janine tho!  But the script made it pretty clear Sherlock wasn't home that night; he was in the drug den (or in his parlance, "working")

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Since Irene was looking for her phone and considered 221b to be a safe bolt hole.....not sure if she was actually looking for Sherlock to be in it.....er...the bed.... that is.  With Janine, yeah a bit of a different story since Sherlock was supposed to be courting her. But it does seem she had been to the apartment before and spent more then just the one night. She knew that Sherlock liked to take forever when taking a shower.

[sfmpco]

oh hang on... if it wasn't Anthea, then it makes more sense that Irene set up a ruse to make John think Mycroft wanted to see him by the same type of girl and car, and then the whole text message makes sense that Irene would have sent it.

 

Okay, now onto solving the other things in this episode.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

f it wasn't Anthea, then it makes more sense that Irene set up a ruse to make John think Mycroft wanted to see him by the same type of girl and car, and then the whole text message makes sense that Irene would have sent it.

 

  Exactly. Irene needed John to think it was Mycroft because Irene was supposed to be dead. And if John knew it was about seeing Irene he probably wouldn't have gone anyway.

[Arcadia]

Since Irene was looking for her phone and considered 221b to be a safe bolt hole.....not sure if she was actually looking for Sherlock to be in it.....er...the bed.... that is.  With Janine, yeah a bit of a different story since Sherlock was supposed to be courting her. But it does seem she had been to the apartment before and spent more then just the one night. She knew that Sherlock liked to take forever when taking a shower.

I assumed he took long showers so as to avoid her, uh, advances. Long enough until she had to go to work ..... All night long showers, if necessary......