The Ice Man and The Virgin

[jesskayding]

Just a little. You put men & women living together while abstinent. They may be abstaining from intercourse, but they are certainly having sex. They'd truly have to be super human.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Maybe not. The Celts were not so hung up on sex. And religious communities were always open....more like schools and universities then cloistered nunneries or monasteries. Nor did they try to separate themselves from the people or the communities around them. They often....when taking vows declared all men and women as their brothers and sisters and so putting the ban of incest on all future relationships. But then Celtic priests and lay people could marry.....so forced celibacy wasn't a problem.

[jesskayding]

Are you certain there's not a reason they began separating men from women.

[sfmpco]

Whether Sherlock is a virgin or not, I still say there are a few of big clues about -

 

#1 - That Irene sees him as either a virgin or extremely inexperienced, and in her line of work she would be able to spot that.

 

#2 - When Sherlock says "Sex doesn't alarm me," Mycroft's response is, "How would you know?"

 

#3 - Moriarty has labeled him a virgin.

 

There are things that Sherlock can do, of course, without Mycroft ever knowing - like rescuing Irene and disappearing into bolt holes if needed.  Although Moftiss has wondered how it would be possible for SH to be a virgin, I am going to stick with the idea that maybe he is.  Because it just adds an extra dimension to him if he is.  But the thing is, Mycroft is better at deducing that Sherlock, and even though his comments are a jab at his little brother, I still think there's truth behind them.

 

I'm voting for virgin.

[jesskayding]

Yeah.. Now after reviewing the whole Janine thing. I think he's sort of a virgin. I'm sure they did other things.

[sfmpco]

I do not make this stuff up.

[T.o.b.y]

I don't know. It's one of those things where I think "oh dear, this is all none of my business", even though Sherlock is entirely fictional and it doesn't really make sense to feel uncomfortable about invading a fictional character's privacy.

 

I can't imagine he has much experience. Maybe some experimental fumbling as a teen or at university, who knows. Can't have been too satisfying, at any rate, or he'd not have ruled out a sex life in favor of cases - hey, if he was that determined to avoid distractions from work and keep his brain focused on crimes, he'd have left the drugs alone.

 

Maybe he got up to something fun with Irene after he rescued her from the terrorists in Karachi. It certainly wouldn't be her fault if he didn't. A part of me hopes she got him into bed - for her sake, not necessarily his. Just so she had another little triumph in the end. And if so, I hope she wasn't disappointed and it didn't feel like work for her.

 

Why didn't Sherlock sleep with Janine? I can think of several possible reasons:

 

- He didn't fancy her (enough). I wouldn't...

 

- He was being a gentleman in his own bizarre way and thought that having sex with her when he was only playing at being in love for the sake of getting into her boss's office would be crossing a line even he wasn't willing to overstep. Sherlock is a fairly honorable person. And old-fashioned, too. It probably never occurred to him that Janine would have been quite contented with a bit of casual sex and that the emotional betrayal hurt her far more.

 

- Sex does alarm him. After all, it involves pretty strong emotions and a loss of control over one's feelings and impulses, and while it may be one thing to be swept off one's feet by a professional dominatrix he'll never have to see again in the afterglow of an adrenaline high from fighting terrorists, it's an entirely different can of worms to let a woman get that close to him whom he'll have to deal with further. What if he fell in love with her? I think for Sherlock, that would be a serious problem.

[jesskayding]

Now I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him seeing Irene again. Uhmmm I think its time they have dinner.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Not sure it actually alarms him....bothers  him for the distraction and mayhem it causes?  Yes, without question. But BC does think that they had a romantic interlude after the Karachi event. He knows it's mostly biological and the mechanics of it. He did say "sex did not alarm him"  true, fall in love....heart felt emotions and consequences ....that is probably what alarms him more.

[jesskayding]

Yeah I can see that.

[Boton]

Kind of late to the game on this thread, but I'm reading character threads while I work today.

 

 

 

He was being a gentleman in his own bizarre way and thought that having sex with her when he was only playing at being in love for the sake of getting into her boss's office would be crossing a line even he wasn't willing to overstep. Sherlock is a fairly honorable person. And old-fashioned, too. It probably never occurred to him that Janine would have been quite contented with a bit of casual sex and that the emotional betrayal hurt her far more.

 

This is my husband's theory, and I must admit, I quite like it.  Sherlock knew the relationship was going nowhere, and therefore he drew a line beyond which he would not take advantage of Janine.  

 

 

 

Not sure it actually alarms him....bothers  him for the distraction and mayhem it causes?  Yes, without question. But BC does think that they had a romantic interlude after the Karachi event. He knows it's mostly biological and the mechanics of it. He did say "sex did not alarm him"  true, fall in love....heart felt emotions and consequences ....that is probably what alarms him more.

 

I have absolutely never given any credence to Mycroft's jab about sex alarming Sherlock.  Those two have a contentious enough relationship that they are not above using hurtful jabs that are based on things from their childhood.  Heck, the last time Mycroft knew anything substantive about Sherlock's sex life could have been when Sherlock was about 15.  (Just based on a theorized 7 year age difference and assuming Mycroft stopped living at home at all once he graduated university.)

 

My own head canon says that Sherlock has had sexual experiences, but that he never saw them as particularly engaging (and, therefore, they were pure biochemistry) if they weren't linked to emotion.  There are a lot of reasons to elect to forego casual relations, ranging from concern about disease and pregnancy to a knowledge of how disruptive emotion, relationships, and potential spouse/children can be to one's career.  And, as I believe BC has said in an interview, not every man needs his sexual urges attended to at all times.

 

Once you get into your 30s, if you are unmarried, many people start dating more to find a potential mate and less for recreation (of any kind).  So, it's easy for me to conjecture that Sherlock could easily drop the casual dating side of things, to the extent that it went on in his 20s, in favor of a focus on his career. By the time we see him in SiB, he might be a little rusty, but I don't think he's a virgin in any meaningful sense of the word.

 

I think that sets him up to be profoundly sexually attracted to Irene because she is his mirror image, someone who uses sexuality to guard her emotions just like Sherlock uses intellect.  They are a match for one another, and that equality would be extremely attractive to someone like Sherlock.  I quite like the idea that everything culminated after Karachi in a very intense interlude between the two.  

[avoca]

I adore the Brother Cadfael mysteries! Wonder if they would allow women to join at this late date?

 

my dad used to love them. I never read one. perhaps I should give it a try 

 

Yeah.. Now after reviewing the whole Janine thing. I think he's sort of a virgin. I'm sure they did other things.

 

"sort of virgin".. LMAO   I know what you mean, but the expresison makes me giggle.

 

 

 

Why didn't Sherlock sleep with Janine? I can think of several possible reasons:

 

 

- He was being a gentleman in his own bizarre way and thought that having sex with her when he was only playing at being in love for the sake of getting into her boss's office would be crossing a line even he wasn't willing to overstep. Sherlock is a fairly honorable person. And old-fashioned, too. It probably never occurred to him that Janine would have been quite contented with a bit of casual sex and that the emotional betrayal hurt her far more.

 

- Sex does alarm him. After all, it involves pretty strong emotions and a loss of control over one's feelings and impulses, and while it may be one thing to be swept off one's feet by a professional dominatrix he'll never have to see again in the afterglow of an adrenaline high from fighting terrorists, it's an entirely different can of worms to let a woman get that close to him whom he'll have to deal with further. What if he fell in love with her? I think for Sherlock, that would be a serious problem.

 

interesting hypothesis. I like both of them: they can actually both be true.

 

I stick to the idea sherlock is a "sort of virgin"  cause his whole approach to life applies to love and sex too, of course.

 

sex is a complication to him: he's extremely self controlled (when we meet him first), though he's several rage outbursts, so it'd be interesting to understand why is rage a "licit" emotion and lust or love aren't..

 

being as emotionally inhibited as he is, sex causes sherlock other problems. when he "plays" janine's boyfriend, he's playing a part, like he does in other circumstances. he's acting.

 

 

when it comes to irene, I guess he finds her very attractive   , but I also think just the fact she's a dominatrix fascinates him.

being the control freak that he is, he sees an equal in irene and moreover, he might be attracted to the idea of leaving someone else in control..

 

my take is they don't end up in bed together, after karachi (might be later on the the series, though), but o.c. it's pure speculation, as always.

[Arcadia]

sex is a complication to him: he's extremely self controlled (when we meet him first), though he's several rage outbursts, so it'd be interesting to understand why is rage a "licit" emotion and lust or love aren't...

Oooo, good point, I hadn't thought of that.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe he tells himself that he's still in control when he's angry (though I suspect he isn't entirely), but would necessarily lose control if he gave in to love (and/or lust).

[Boton]

Both rage and drug use are essentially solo behaviors that are under the "control" of the person doing the behavior.  Love and lust involve other people, and they often involve temporarily or more permanently losing control to another person.  I don't necessarily see Sherlock as being a particularly controlled individual, but I do think that he avoids ceding control to another person.  Even if you take out the potential complications created by potential disease, pregnancy, and emotion, Sherlock could have decided to forego intimacy so that other people can't hurt him.  Saying "no" to intimacy would allow him to exercise control over the situation by not letting it get started.

 

That said, I will stand by the idea that there are, indeed, logical and positive reasons to embrace periods of celibacy, and Sherlock may indeed have done so.

[sittything]

Both rage and drug use are essentially solo behaviors that are under the "control" of the person doing the behavior.  Love and lust involve other people, and they often involve temporarily or more permanently losing control to another person.  I don't necessarily see Sherlock as being a particularly controlled individual, but I do think that he avoids ceding control to another person.  Even if you take out the potential complications created by potential disease, pregnancy, and emotion, Sherlock could have decided to forego intimacy so that other people can't hurt him.  Saying "no" to intimacy would allow him to exercise control over the situation by not letting it get started.

 

That said, I will stand by the idea that there are, indeed, logical and positive reasons to embrace periods of celibacy, and Sherlock may indeed have done so.

 

I'm glad you said that because I've always felt that of the two, Mycroft has far more self-control and is much better at keeping his emotions in check than Sherlock.  I think Sherlock tries to always maintain control, and has probably always tried to be like Mycroft in that respect, or maybe Mycroft encouraged him to be more like him to avoid what he perceived as weakness in his little brother?  

[Boton]

 

 

I think Sherlock tries to always maintain control, and has probably always tried to be like Mycroft in that respect, or maybe Mycroft encouraged him to be more like him to avoid what he perceived as weakness in his little brother?

 

Yes, I think maintaining self-control in all things sits more comfortably with Mycroft's personality, and there is some aspect of their upbringing that intensified Sherlock's admiration of his big brother and Mycroft's sense of responsibility for Sherlock.  I've read some pretty dramatic theories about how this could have come about (everything from Holmes family going on foreign service to Mummy or Daddy having an affair to Mummy having a mental illness), and really any of them could be true at the moment and fit what we know "factually."  But it also could be something as simple as Mycroft being a particularly intense child and taking very seriously a conversation with Mummy that "now you're going to be a big brother, and it's your job to look out for your little brother."  

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

I'm glad you said that because I've always felt that of the two, Mycroft has far more self-control and is much better at keeping his emotions in check than Sherlock.  I think Sherlock tries to always maintain control, and has probably always tried to be like Mycroft in that respect, or maybe Mycroft encouraged him to be more like him to avoid what he perceived as weakness in his little brother?  

 

My interpretation is a bit less charitable, as I simply do not believe Mycroft has much to control, at least not emotions-wise. He seems like a genuinely cold fish to me. Sure, he's got some feelings for his brother that might border on affection (but take a pretty warped shape once in a while), and we've seen him worry about "I am the government" situations gone wrong, but as far as passion of any kind goes, I think Mycroft just doesn't experience it, and doesn't understand it, either. The few times we've seen him slip up, it was because he had not taken into account that his little brother, the one who is supposed to be "better" than the ordinary "goldfish", more like him, is very capable of very strong feelings, like love (Irene) and hate (Magnussen).

 

 

[sittything]

 

I'm glad you said that because I've always felt that of the two, Mycroft has far more self-control and is much better at keeping his emotions in check than Sherlock.  I think Sherlock tries to always maintain control, and has probably always tried to be like Mycroft in that respect, or maybe Mycroft encouraged him to be more like him to avoid what he perceived as weakness in his little brother?  

 

My interpretation is a bit less charitable, as I simply do not believe Mycroft has much to control, at least not emotions-wise. He seems like a genuinely cold fish to me. Sure, he's got some feelings for his brother that might border on affection (but take a pretty warped shape once in a while), and we've seen him worry about "I am the government" situations gone wrong, but as far as passion of any kind goes, I think Mycroft just doesn't experience it, and doesn't understand it, either. The few times we've seen him slip up, it was because he had not taken into account that his little brother, the one who is supposed to be "better" than the ordinary "goldfish", more like him, is very capable of very strong feelings, like love (Irene) and hate (Magnussen).

 

 

 

 

Oh, I definitely agree with you that Mycroft doesn't nearly have the depth of emotion that Sherlock does ,but I don't think he's as cold fish as he comes across.  I don't think he has anywhere the depth of emotion that Sherlock does, but he does seem to spend a good deal of time checking up on his little brother, and I think it's out of concern that he does so.  I'm not entirely sure that Mycroft doesn't take into account that his little brother is capable of strong emotions, though. Sometimes I wonder if Mycroft saw in Sherlock as a child that he could be very emotional at times, and has tried to drive it out of him in a sense.  Clearly Mycroft is not a very emotional person, and while maybe he can't directly understand because he's not emotional himself, he can recognize it and sees it as a detriment and a weakness that he felt needed to be fixed in Sherlock.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

... it also could be something as simple as Mycroft being a particularly intense child and taking very seriously a conversation with Mummy that "now you're going to be a big brother, and it's your job to look out for your little brother."

I suspect that's at least a big part of it. I've known elder siblings who still blame themselves when a younger (but now middle-aged) sibling makes a poor decision. 

 

Oh, I definitely agree with you that Mycroft doesn't nearly have the depth of emotion that Sherlock does, but I don't think he's as cold fish as he comes across.  I don't think he has anywhere the depth of emotion that Sherlock does, but he does seem to spend a good deal of time checking up on his little brother, and I think it's out of concern that he does so.

I think it's partly concern, yes, at least in the sense that Mycroft understands the concept. But I think it's also partly (perhaps largely) a sense of duty. Just doing his job, so to speak.

[avoca]

I think this interview with benedict pretty much answers many questions about sherlock (virginity, porn, sex and being a control freak) LOL   (off Elle UK)

http://www.elleuk.com/now-trending/benedict-cumberbatch-talks-sherlock-and-sex

[avoca]

at this link you find the rest oft he ELLE UK article: very good actually.

 

http://www.elleuk.com/commercial/benedict-cumberbatch/

 

about sherlock's asexuality, I quote "And of course his sherlock abstains from sex, although Benedict does insist: He's asexual for a purpose, not because he doesn't have a sex drive, but because it's suppressed to do his work. cold showers, looking at a lot of dead bodies... that'll do it for you". 

[Tunguska]

Thank you for sharing that, both the long interview and the first person sex bit. It made me laugh out loud!

[Shadow Dweller]

 

 

I'm glad you said that because I've always felt that of the two, Mycroft has far more self-control and is much better at keeping his emotions in check than Sherlock.  I think Sherlock tries to always maintain control, and has probably always tried to be like Mycroft in that respect, or maybe Mycroft encouraged him to be more like him to avoid what he perceived as weakness in his little brother?  

 

My interpretation is a bit less charitable, as I simply do not believe Mycroft has much to control, at least not emotions-wise. He seems like a genuinely cold fish to me. Sure, he's got some feelings for his brother that might border on affection (but take a pretty warped shape once in a while), and we've seen him worry about "I am the government" situations gone wrong, but as far as passion of any kind goes, I think Mycroft just doesn't experience it, and doesn't understand it, either. The few times we've seen him slip up, it was because he had not taken into account that his little brother, the one who is supposed to be "better" than the ordinary "goldfish", more like him, is very capable of very strong feelings, like love (Irene) and hate (Magnussen).

 

 

 

 

Oh, I definitely agree with you that Mycroft doesn't nearly have the depth of emotion that Sherlock does ,but I don't think he's as cold fish as he comes across.  I don't think he has anywhere the depth of emotion that Sherlock does, but he does seem to spend a good deal of time checking up on his little brother, and I think it's out of concern that he does so.  I'm not entirely sure that Mycroft doesn't take into account that his little brother is capable of strong emotions, though. Sometimes I wonder if Mycroft saw in Sherlock as a child that he could be very emotional at times, and has tried to drive it out of him in a sense.  Clearly Mycroft is not a very emotional person, and while maybe he can't directly understand because he's not emotional himself, he can recognize it and sees it as a detriment and a weakness that he felt needed to be fixed in Sherlock.  

 

 

I think it is more about choice than the depth of passion & emotion. One chooses to 'share' in raw form what he feels with the world while the other did not, perhaps because he thinks that it will be detrimental and or inappropriate to make innocent people into target for it (in case of negative emotion, did not want to share the burden). Of course as the case of the latter, no matter how excellent someone's self-control is, sooner or later the dam will get an occasional leak (SiB, scenes in the Bond Air).

 

If we think about ice, what would immediately appear in mind is clear, hard substance with low temperature that can give us painful 'burn' should it handled wrong. The ice man might point to Mycroft's exceptional self-control in public and private life but also coming from Jim Moriarty, the nickname itself could mean more than that.

 

In Mycroft's world, a place where the alliance is likely based on (temporary) mutual interest, someone who show his emotions (heart) clearly like Sherlock at times is like bait for sharks. He tried to teach Sherlock the only way he knows how to survive and thrive, without really considering that Sherlock's situation is different from his own and the latter might actually have more freedom to follow his heart than himself. 

 

Pgymalion project is  a risky and even dangerous business, parent-child relationship like the Holmes brothers' interactions tends to be is especially prone to such thing.

 

 

Poem from Kahlil Gibran:

 

“Your children are not your children.

 


They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.

 


They come through you but not from you,

 


And though they are with you yet they belong not to you

 

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,

 


For they have their own thoughts.

 

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

 

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,

 


which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

 

You may strive to be like them, 
but seek not to make them like you.

 


For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.”

[Shadow Dweller]

Another idea popped out last night. Sherlock Holmes, in his current formative years, has not yet acquired the wisdom of ACD's version. Moriarty's nickname for him, 'the virgin', is not about his sexual prowess but rather about lack of experience and general attitude about cloak and dagger business.