Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

(There's been fights between the Johnlockers and Sherlollypops because one thinks their ship is better and the other's is going to sink. Some parts of the Sherlock fandom I've encountered fight a lot -- Mary haters and Mary 'stans', Gay!John supporters and Gay!John refuters, the Johnlock Conspirators vs the Johnlock Refuters, just to name a few historial conflicts.)

Yes, I've heard those horror stories. Some of our "discussions" here are quite spirited enough for my taste, thank you very much!

 

OK, I'm ignorant -- what are Mary 'stans'?  Google brings up a bunch of hits, but everyone seems to assume that I already know what they're talking about.

 

 

'Stan' is a portmanteau of 'stalker fan', meaning people with an obsessive love of someone/thing to the point where they stalk that person/thing.

[Janie]

God, that's scary. I'm so glad that this forum is so civilized. 

[Zain]

 

 

I'm sorry, but there is nothing mainstream about BBC Sherlock... Nothing... 

 

Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I consider the solution of HLV rather mainstream. If I want to watch a series where it's about action and solving problems with guns, then I'd go for one of those acronym detective investigation series. They are mostly interchangeable... I fell in love with Sherlock, because it was different from all those. I quite like riddles and complications, and I am not opposed to drama at all. But just like with the doctor genre a few years back, investigation series are sort of in a stalemate. It seems that the only way people can make the new ones interesting to the audience is to make them even bloodier, even more violent instead of making a brilliant script. But that's just my impression. I probably should add that this is in no way meant to look down on import movies and series. We basically import everything, because our own programmes are not good, unless it's documentary, news or political discussions.

Ed: Sorry, somehow the system threw out the content of the quote between posting and publishing. I cannot restore it, thus I decided the content was more important than the citing Something that would not be acceptable in academic environment lol

 

I wouldn't call it mainstream, Series 3. More fanservice-y, e.g. Sherlock LITERALLY popping up and saying "Not dead", Sherlock taking Molly on a case in lieu of John, John hugging Sherlock, the outrageous stag night (evening, really -- "You couldn't even make it to closing time"), Molly slapping Sherlock out of tough love, and some other things I don't remember off the top of my head right now. But I can say for sure that the Johnlockers and the Sherlollypops (is that what they're called? There's no general consensus.) were partying.

 

(There's been fights between the Johnlockers and Sherlollypops because one thinks their ship is better and the other's is going to sink. Some parts of the Sherlock fandom I've encountered fight a lot -- Mary haters and Mary 'stans', Gay!John supporters and Gay!John refuters, the Johnlock Conspirators vs the Johnlock Refuters, just to name a few historial conflicts.)

 

Yes, there was a lot of fanservice, wasn't there? I actually liked the references in TEH, especially because it was directed at the "longterm" fans, the ones that gather in forums like us. Maybe it was a bit much overall, but I can't get my heart into complaining about it.

And, oh my, Sherlollypops? I know the term Sherlolly, but I have never heard that expression. Gosh, that sounds horrible You made my day, I can't stop grinning, because I can't stop imagining someone introducing themselves as a Sherlollypop to Cumberbatch.

Concerning the in-fandom fights... well, they are rather benign in nature, compared to other fandoms. At least, I haven't encountered severe bashing in a lot of places yet.

 

 

The creators have denied often enough to interact in any way with their fans or being influenced by fan works, but it does seem to me as if there's been quite a lot of market research on somebody's part between series 2 and 3. Luckily, it hasn't spoiled the story (yet). But I do wish they'd ignore their audience even more than they allegedly do and go back to the style and tone of series 1.

 

 

Yes, I loved that unique approach. Sure, season 1 had its flaws, just like any other series. And it was rather small-budgeted. But there was something very refreshing about it. You could feel how the writers spread their wings and dared to write something different. 

[Redbeard]

"Merry Christmas" was kind of disappointing to me.  I mean, I loved it, it was so dark and the scene was great, etc. etc...but sometimes when I watch it just sounds so "Dirty Harry", or "Die Hard" you know one of those action movies with the one-liners as they kill people (Yipee Ki Yay, etc.)  I sometimes wish he had said something clever, something deep that would still have the same dark effect.  I have no idea what, because I am not clever myself.  Merry Christmas just seemed like too obvious a choice.  Minor quibble though. 

[Arcadia]

 

I'm sorry, but there is nothing mainstream about BBC Sherlock... Nothing... 

 

 

Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I consider the solution of HLV rather mainstream. If I want to watch a series where it's about action and solving problems with guns, then I'd go for one of those acronym detective investigation series. They are mostly interchangeable... I fell in love with Sherlock, because it was different from all those. I quite like riddles and complications, and I am not opposed to drama at all. But just like with the doctor genre a few years back, investigation series are sort of in a stalemate. It seems that the only way people can make the new ones interesting to the audience is to make them even bloodier, even more violent instead of making a brilliant script. But that's just my impression. I probably should add that this is in no way meant to look down on import movies and series. We basically import everything, because our own programmes are not good, unless it's documentary, news or political discussions.

...

 

Yes, there was a lot of fanservice, wasn't there? I actually liked the references in TEH, especially because it was directed at the "longterm" fans, the ones that gather in forums like us. Maybe it was a bit much overall, but I can't get my heart into complaining about it.

"Merry Christmas" was kind of disappointing to me.  I mean, I loved it, it was so dark and the scene was great, etc. etc...but sometimes when I watch it just sounds so "Dirty Harry", or "Die Hard" you know one of those action movies with the one-liners as they kill people (Yipee Ki Yay, etc.)  I sometimes wish he had said something clever, something deep that would still have the same dark effect.  I have no idea what, because I am not clever myself.  Merry Christmas just seemed like too obvious a choice.  Minor quibble though.

Thank you, you two, you both helped clarify to myself why I don't find the "Merry Christmas" line in any way funny. And this coming from a fan of the first two "Die Hard" movies; I rather enjoyed their subversiveness! But it's a cliche, now, as is the "solution of HLV" (as Zain succinctly put it). I guess I'd hoped for something newer and fresher.

 

I loved the "fanservice" in TEH! And at the time I first saw it, I didn't even know that's what it was supposed to be. I had no idea there was the kind of fandom there is (I still barely know anyone who's even heard of the show.) I knew there were theories about how Sherlock pulled it off, that's all. And I thought all the misleading scenarios were an absolute blast. I wonder, though, if I had known more of the "in-jokes" (like "Not dead." and the Sherlolly stuff), if I would have felt the same. I suspect I would have, because that's the kind of sense of humor I tend to have.  And quite frankly, that kiss was one of the most electrifying things I've ever seen......

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I didn't find Sherlock's "Merry Christmas" neither simplistic nor cliche.  He had promised Mycroft to Magnussen as a Christmas present, only to learn that Mycroft had been looking for some way of getting the goods on Magnussen for some time and Sherlock was looking right at the helicopter when he shouted it and shot Magnussen. This was Sherlock giving Magnussen to Mycroft. At  least that has always been my take on it. 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

Um... I'm sorry to tell you this, but I find the "Merry Christmas" bit funny, yes. Very much so.

I started clapping after he shot CAM.

Me too. Well, not literally but I was sooo relieved when he finally shot him! Does that make me a psychopath too? 

And yes, I do believe that "Merry Christmas" is supposed to be funny, but certainly not in a lighthearted way.  It's dark, bitter humor.

Also agree that the Merry Christmas was meant in the dark humor way (& yes I do find it slightly amusing)

Wow. Well, I'm glad to see that violence on TV hasn't desensitized this crowd, at least!

 

I just had the weirdest experience; came home, flipped on the boob tube and there was David Tennant ... with an American accent. In a remake of a British show. Which he also starred in. I think I'm in the Twilight Zone.

 

(It looked pretty good, by the way. Not a single gunshot, though, you lot might not like it. )

 

 

You mean Gracepoint? I was watching Gotham with my dad when the commercial played and then I thought, Who the heck's that guy? I swear, I know h -- IT'S THE DOCTOR.

[Arcadia]

You mean Gracepoint? I was watching Gotham with my dad when the commercial played and then I thought, Who the heck's that guy? I swear, I know h -- IT'S THE DOCTOR.

Thank you!!! That was it. I was trying my darnedest to remember the name of that show yesterday and failed.

[Arcadia]

I didn't find Sherlock's "Merry Christmas" neither simplistic nor cliche.  He had promised Mycroft to Magnussen as a Christmas present, only to learn that Mycroft had been looking for some way of getting the goods on Magnussen for some time and Sherlock was looking right at the helicopter when he shouted it and shot Magnussen. This was Sherlock giving Magnussen to Mycroft. At  least that has always been my take on it.

No, I wouldn't call it simplistic either, and I like your reading of the scene. I agree with Zain, though, that it's pretty mainstream. That's what I meant by cliche. Perhaps "commonplace" would have been a better term.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I don't look at it as being so mainstream as realistic. Even in canon Sherlock Holmes often failed. He often accused Watson as making him seem far more cerebral, genius and clever then he really was. He will always be the hero, the dragon slayer...but even super heroes with all their smarts and ulranatural powers sometimes have to resort to the mundane, down and dirty fist a cuffs to accomplish their goals. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Fox, it took me a while to be sure, but I think they're talking more about Sherlock's choice of phrase for a change, rather than his brute-force solution.  I agree with what you say -- and I loved your interpretation of his "Merry Christmas!"

 

[Boton]

 

 

I don't look at it as being so mainstream as realistic. Even in canon Sherlock Holmes often failed. He often accused Watson as making him seem far more cerebral, genius and clever then he really was. He will always be the hero, the dragon slayer...but even super heroes with all their smarts and ulranatural powers sometimes have to resort to the mundane, down and dirty fist a cuffs to accomplish their goals. 

 

I totally agree, and this is underlined by Mycroft's speech later about how sometimes you need a blunt instrument and sometimes you need a scalpel.  I really do see the shooting of CAM itself as a scalpel-type move:  remove just that one cancer, and a whole body could live.  

 

As far as the triteness of "Merry Christmas," it doesn't bother me.  Once you have written a scene like that, the protagonist has to say something before pulling the trigger, and everything pithy has already been taken and used in other non-Sherlock shows.  (Things like "see you in hell," or "hasta la vista.")  Plus, Merry Christmas has the advantage of closing the loop nicely on the conversation that already existed between Sherlock and CAM.  Sherlock offered to "give" CAM his brother for Christmas (in the restaurant scene), and he attempted to do so, albeit with Mycroft's help using the GPS tracker and calling in Mycroft's governmental muscle.  When that didn't work, Sherlock wound up saying something that would convey the idea "I said I'd give you a Christmas present, but I'm not holding up my end of the deal any more."

[Carol the Dabbler]

Or, as Fox said, he "gave" CAM to Mycroft for Christmas.  Still not sure how to interpret that line, but at least I've got some interesting ideas to ponder.

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

As far as the triteness of "Merry Christmas," it doesn't bother me.  Once you have written a scene like that, the protagonist has to say something before pulling the trigger, and everything pithy has already been taken and used in other non-Sherlock shows.  (Things like "see you in hell," or "hasta la vista.")  Plus, Merry Christmas has the advantage of closing the loop nicely on the conversation that already existed between Sherlock and CAM.  Sherlock offered to "give" CAM his brother for Christmas (in the restaurant scene), and he attempted to do so, albeit with Mycroft's help using the GPS tracker and calling in Mycroft's governmental muscle.  When that didn't work, Sherlock wound up saying something that would convey the idea "I said I'd give you a Christmas present, but I'm not holding up my end of the deal any more."

 

For me, it's just wonderful black humor. I just love that little moment.

 

[Zain]

Would you then, if you argue that Sherlock gave Magnussen to Mycroft as a Christmas present,  also argue that Sherlock knows Mycroft is not truly in league with Magnussen? Sure, Magnussen stated before that Mycroft wasn't terribly pleased with him, but apart from that, the episode seems to put emphasis on how Mycroft does not really mind Magnussen. Personally, I do think Mycroft and Sherlock were working together to some degree, but there's no evidence, thus I am neglecting that theory.

If you do not think Mycroft entrusted Sherlock with the knowledge that he would like Magnussen to be removed while they were having a discussion off-screen, do you think he kills Magnussen out of spite and he is handing Mycroft that present, which he knows is not what Mycroft truly wants? That seems to me even darker a reading than the fact that he considered a life expendable like this.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't think Mycroft liked Magnussen, he just felt that it was politically unwise to cross him.  And it's my feeling that Mycroft was at least aware of Sherlock's overall plan against Magnussen (which did not necessarily include shooting him), did nothing to stop him, and may even have been a participant of sorts -- so I assume that even though Mycroft is unhappy about how Magnussen died, he's relieved that he's no longer a player.

 

I admit that's pretty convoluted, but it's the only way I can make sense of things.

 

[Arcadia]

Fox, it took me a while to be sure, but I think they're talking more about Sherlock's choice of phrase for a change, rather than his brute-force solution.  I agree with what you say -- and I loved your interpretation of his "Merry Christmas!"

Umm.... yes and no. I can't speak for the others, but I think I was conflating the two at that point.

 

Let's see if I can explain myself this way: when I was younger, the protagonist in a TV show would no more have killed an unarmed man -- no matter how evil -- than he would have poked out his own eyeballs just to see if he could. To me that was a normal -- "commonplace" -- attitude. The cliche, if you will.

 

That changed over time, as things are wont to do. In TV now, it's my perception that the new normal is what we term "realism;" choices are no longer depicted as black and white, and neither are heroes and villians.

 

I don't find that "bad;" a lot can be said about people and mores and the complexity of life in such stories. But I do find it "commonplace", or better, in Zain's words, "mainstream".

 

Now add to that the success of morbidly humorous, supremely unrealistic but graphically violent films like Die Hard or Bond. They seemed pretty fresh at the time they came out. I enjoyed, and laughed at, many of them. But now they've been copied so much, it's another new normal; another section of the mainstream. And frankly, I'm bored with it, I've seen it too often; for me, the joke's worn off.

 

So yeah, I mostly meant that I found the "Merry Christmas" line unfunny partly (but not solely) because I found it hackneyed. But I also find "Sherlock's solution" rather commonplace by today's standards. However, that wasn't my main point.

 

I like Fox's interpretation of the "Christmas" line too, I just -- sorry folks -- do not find the line remotely humorous. And ... if I may note ... neither did the audience's representative, John Watson. For whatever reason, my response mirrored his. So perhaps if John had laughed, I might have too? It's possible, I've said before that I have little will of my own where these characters are concerned.

 

Added: just listened to the soundtrack for this scene. I'd have to say the composers didn't find anything funny about it either. Gorgeous soundtrack, BTW. Best of the 3, imo.

[Arcadia]

Would you then, if you argue that Sherlock gave Magnussen to Mycroft as a Christmas present,  also argue that Sherlock knows Mycroft is not truly in league with Magnussen? Sure, Magnussen stated before that Mycroft wasn't terribly pleased with him, but apart from that, the episode seems to put emphasis on how Mycroft does not really mind Magnussen. Personally, I do think Mycroft and Sherlock were working together to some degree, but there's no evidence, thus I am neglecting that theory.

If you do not think Mycroft entrusted Sherlock with the knowledge that he would like Magnussen to be removed while they were having a discussion off-screen, do you think he kills Magnussen out of spite and he is handing Mycroft that present, which he knows is not what Mycroft truly wants? That seems to me even darker a reading than the fact that he considered a life expendable like this.

It wasn't my impression that Sherlock thought Mycroft was in league with CAM so much as he thought Mycroft was afraid or powerless to go against CAM. ("I consider you under his thumb." -- Which is yet another statement that could use some explanation, actually ... why does Sherlock think that? Or did he say it merely to annoy Mycroft?) So, no, I can't see that he killed CAM to spite Mycroft. I think it was genuinely done for John, and just for John.

 

I could see the "Merry Christmas" line as a bitter remark directed at Mycroft, tho -- meaning "Thanks a heap, brother. If you'd done your job, I wouldn't have had to do this." And Fox's interpretation also feels "right" to me.

 

Although I can't be sure, Fox, that Sherlock was looking at the helicopter when he said his line. I would have said he was looking directly at CAM the whole time, with perhaps a brief glance for John. No way of really knowing, I suppose.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I like Fox's interpretation of the "Christmas" line too, I just -- sorry folks -- do not find the line remotely humorous. And ... if I may note ... neither did the audience's representative, John Watson. For whatever reason, my response mirrored his. So perhaps if John had laughed, I might have too? It's possible, I've said before that I have little will of my own where these characters are concerned.

If you're counting me in the "funny" camp, let me point out that all I've said on the subject is that I suspect Moffat intended it to be a touch of bitter dark humor. And I guess that's how I think Sherlock meant it -- not as funny ha-ha, but somewhere between sarcastic and ironic. My personal reaction is that the scene is very dramatic, but mostly I'm in agony over John's shock and despair.

  

Although I can't be sure, Fox, that Sherlock was looking at the helicopter when he said his line. I would have said he was looking directly at CAM the whole time, with perhaps a brief glance for John. No way of really knowing, I suppose.

As I recall, that's a very wide-angle shot, so it's hard to tell the details with any precision. In fact, the first time I saw it, I wasn't sure what had happened, maybe Sherlock had merely punched CAM. I certainly was NOT expecting him to shoot the guy.

[Arcadia]

 

I like Fox's interpretation of the "Christmas" line too, I just -- sorry folks -- do not find the line remotely humorous. And ... if I may note ... neither did the audience's representative, John Watson. For whatever reason, my response mirrored his. So perhaps if John had laughed, I might have too? It's possible, I've said before that I have little will of my own where these characters are concerned.

If you're counting me in the "funny" camp, let me point out that all I've said on the subject is that I suspect Moffat intended it to be a touch of bitter dark humor. And I guess that's how I think Sherlock meant it -- not as funny ha-ha, but somewhere between sarcastic and ironic. My personal reaction is that the scene is very dramatic, but mostly I'm in agony over John's shock and despair.

 

Well, I'm not counting who said what! I'm just aware that I'm a bit out of step on this particular point. As I usually am when violence is the topic. I don't know why I still fight it, but I always do. Urk.

 

And yeh, I see the dark and bitter all right. I'm just not sure who it's directed at: CAM? Mycroft? Himself? Fate?

  

.... I wasn't sure what had happened, maybe Sherlock had merely punched CAM......

Now THAT would have made me laugh!!  Oh, I wish Moftiss had thought of that, that would have been priceless. If rather useless.

[Zain]

That'd would have been hilariously funny. Just imagine how Magnussen lies on the ground - without glasses, they broke - and splutters, because he didn't see that coming. Then there's John whose entire world has been upturned: Sherlock just resorted to violence like a school boy on the playground who has been outwitted in a verbal fight with another child. Then Sherlock who is all puffed up and sulking, while simultaneously being all too pleased with himself. And Mycroft just slaps his hand against the face: "Sherlock, what have you done... That is going to upset mommy. Again."

 

Just imagining the aftermath... I think that could have been brilliant. I definitely would have enjoyed the comedy that has got to result out of that development. No matter which direction they would have taken afterwards.

[T.o.b.y]

I don't think Mycroft liked Magnussen, he just felt that it was politically unwise to cross him.  And it's my feeling that Mycroft was at least aware of Sherlock's overall plan against Magnussen (which did not necessarily include shooting him), did nothing to stop him, and may even have been a participant of sorts -- so I assume that even though Mycroft is unhappy about how Magnussen died, he's relieved that he's no longer a player.

 

I admit that's pretty convoluted, but it's the only way I can make sense of things.

 

Well, Mycroft must know Sherlock well enough to know that if he really wanted to stop him from going after Magnussen, he'd have to choose a different strategy. Remember Irene? Mycroft told Sherlock several times to stay away from her case, that she was "no longer any concern" of his. And later, on the airplane, Mycroft admits "I drove you into her path".

 

I always suspected that something very similar happened with Magnussen. Mycroft, while pretending to order his brother off, knew perfectly well that contrary little Sherlock would only take that as a challenge to get involved all the more - he drove him into this villain's path as well, with similarly unlooked for and unwelcome results. And, again, it's the "human" factor, the "human error" of feelings on Sherlock's part, that mar Mycroft's plan. When will he learn that love and hate are factors to consider, even with his own flesh and blood?

 

[Zain]

 

Well, Mycroft must know Sherlock well enough to know that if he really wanted to stop him from going after Magnussen, he'd have to choose a different strategy. Remember Irene? Mycroft told Sherlock several times to stay away from her case, that she was "no longer any concern" of his. And later, on the airplane, Mycroft admits "I drove you into her path".

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting take on SiB. So far, I thought (arguing from a text-oriented approach) that Mycroft meant that he drove Sherlock into her path, because it was him who first ordered Sherlock to get into contact with Irene. Otherwise Sherlock would have been blissfully ignorant of her existence (well, from his perspective, he wasn't aware of the fact that she was working with Moriarty until Irene  told him about their alliance). From that perspective, Mycroft's insistence that Sherlock leave Magnussen be would not be a mirrored incident. However, your logic is sound, I think it's a fine interpretation. Thanks for sharing it I think theories like these enrich the entire experience. The next time I'll re-watch SIB or HLV, I'll be contemplating that theory.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm still suspicious that Mycroft left his laptop on the kitchen table on purpose -- make of that what you will.

 

[Zain]

And don't forget the non-existing glass from which he drank