Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Interesting. Thanks for posting this. It was a good question, too.

Of course, even the writers and actors may see things from very different points of view and still love what they are doing, so it's not a big surprise to read the above. It's just nice to know that someone on the Sherlock team feels like that.

Hey, girl, where have you been! We don't hear from you enough lately.

 

 

I know; I've been MIA, haven't I? I suppose I needed a break from Sherlock. First break since I got hooked, though - but I can't promise it will be the last.

 

However, I just rewatched His Last Vow and for the first time really felt good about it, so I just had to check this thread again. Glad I did, but it sure is difficult to catch up with everyone's theories, particularly those about Mycroft's potential involvement in Sherlock's plans to frame Magnussen. It's really interesting, and a bit spooky - I mean, those words, "Maybe there was something in the punch," can suddenly take on a different meaning. I always thought it was a funny and brilliant line, since there was actually something in the punch, and Mycroft said those words without knowing it. But if he did know it, the line - and the scene - becomes darker.

[sherlockandjohn]

Actually, for the first time, I can't decide between any of the series 3 episodes as to which I like the best! For sure, I like HLV as well as the other two. At least for the time being

[Arcadia]

I know; I've been MIA, haven't I? I suppose I needed a break from Sherlock. First break since I got hooked, though - but I can't promise it will be the last.

You must have an iron will, I've tried to take a break from Sherlock and it never lasts more than a day. I'm so ashamed. (NOT.)

 

However, I just rewatched His Last Vow and for the first time really felt good about it, so I just had to check this thread again.

That's why we need you, you always find the positive! Not that we don't have lots of other positive people around here (ahem). Anyway, nice to hear from you.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I know; I've been MIA, haven't I? I suppose I needed a break from Sherlock. First break since I got hooked, though - but I can't promise it will be the last.

You must have an iron will, I've tried to take a break from Sherlock and it never lasts more than a day. I'm so ashamed. (NOT.)

 

However, I just rewatched His Last Vow and for the first time really felt good about it, so I just had to check this thread again.

That's why we need you, you always find the positive! Not that we don't have lots of other positive people around here (ahem). Anyway, nice to hear from you.

 

 

Thanks

I wish it was true about the iron will, but really, it just kind of happened. Now, however, I'm in trouble, because I can't seem to leave the forum again, and it's past midnight...   Ah, well.

 

[Arcadia]

I wish it was true about the iron will, but really, it just kind of happened....

Are you saying you went and got a LIFE? Hmmm, maybe I should find me one of those........

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

I wish it was true about the iron will, but really, it just kind of happened....

Are you saying you went and got a LIFE? Hmmm, maybe I should find me one of those........

 

 

Finding a life is no fun   (she says this as she remembers her most recent Saturday being spent mostly offline talking with a band and watching American Football @ her alma mater before the band's concert that night)

 

Actually, for the first time, I can't decide between any of the series 3 episodes as to which I like the best! For sure, I like HLV as well as the other two. At least for the time being

 

 

You should see my profile of the episodes I like.  It is the complete list since only 1 can be picked for each season on the sidebar.

[sherlockandjohn]

That sure is a long list of favorites, SherlockedCAMPer I get you, but I'm fairly certain that my two favorite episodes are still The Reichenbach Fall and A Study in Pink. After that, it gets hard to decide until the very last, which is The Blind Banker. And even that one I enjoy very much.

[jesskayding]

 

 

Interesting. Thanks for posting this. It was a good question, too.

Of course, even the writers and actors may see things from very different points of view and still love what they are doing, so it's not a big surprise to read the above. It's just nice to know that someone on the Sherlock team feels like that.

Hey, girl, where have you been! We don't hear from you enough lately.

 

 

I know; I've been MIA, haven't I? I suppose I needed a break from Sherlock. First break since I got hooked, though - but I can't promise it will be the last.

 

However, I just rewatched His Last Vow and for the first time really felt good about it, so I just had to check this thread again. Glad I did, but it sure is difficult to catch up with everyone's theories, particularly those about Mycroft's potential involvement in Sherlock's plans to frame Magnussen. It's really interesting, and a bit spooky - I mean, those words, "Maybe there was something in the punch," can suddenly take on a different meaning. I always thought it was a funny and brilliant line, since there was actually something in the punch, and Mycroft said those words without knowing it. But if he did know it, the line - and the scene - becomes darker.

 

 

 

Yayyy! Someone else has made it to the dark side! Mwa ha ha ha ha ha!!!

[Slithytove]

Regarding John's gun....isn't it part of the original stories?  It is many years since I read them, but I seem to recall Holmes saying, "Do you have your old service revolver with you, Watson?" on more than one occasion when the game was afoot.  Presumably he was not intending to murder someone but just wanted to know that Watson was armed if the situation became dangerous.  I interpreted Sherlock's remark in this way - not that he planned kill CAM, but rather that he knew they might need to defend themselves if things went wrong.

 

I'm glad to see that Benedict interpreted the shooting as a failure for Sherlock, rather than a victory.  That's the way I see it too.

[T.o.b.y]

Regarding John's gun....isn't it part of the original stories?  It is many years since I read them, but I seem to recall Holmes saying, "Do you have your old service revolver with you, Watson?" on more than one occasion when the game was afoot.  Presumably he was not intending to murder someone but just wanted to know that Watson was armed if the situation became dangerous.  I interpreted Sherlock's remark in this way - not that he planned kill CAM, but rather that he knew they might need to defend themselves if things went wrong.

 

Mhm, the doctor's gun plays an important role in the original. Like almost everything, though, Doyle is pretty inconsistent about the matter. In some stories, Holmes owns a gun of his own, in others, he relies on Watson to do the shooting, or borrows his weapon.

 

Of course in those times, gun use was seen a lot less critically than nowadays.

 

I've had another idea about why Sherlock had John carry the gun: They had been searched at Baker St, and he must have taken into consideration that Magnussen might repeat that procedure at Appledore. Now, if he did and found a gun on Sherlock, that would look a lot more like an attempted assassination than if they found one on John, who probably, in the Sherlock world at least, has some kind of legal justification for carrying one, and who would be a lot more convincing if he claimed he always has it with him and that it had nothing to do with Magnussen specifically in this case.

 

[Zain]

You see it as a premediated murder then?

 

I do not think it was meant as such. To me, it seems more like a convenient interlude to forego claims like "The gun appeared out of nowhere" or the "Oh, what a coincidence, you brought that item with you" theme. I remember a rather bad case in a series I once watched when the female companion remembered from one screen up to another that she had brought a portrait from the cellar. She suddenly pulled it from behind her back and showed it to the other characters...

[T.o.b.y]

You see it as a premediated murder then?

 

Well... yes and no. I think the possibility of murder was premeditated, but I think it was probably something like plan Z if all else failed. In my mind, it is far more likely that Sherlock thought he might need the gun for protection against Magnussen or his staff - or for destroying the vaults!

[BlackButterfly]

I think even if it was premeditated murder it was a brave and heroic and selfless thing Sherlock did.

Sherlock stepped up to the mark and stopped Magnussen in the only possible way.

 

Thats kind of reassuring in an unpleasant way, but it's a little naive to think the people on the front lines taking on people like Magnussen and Moriarty who seem to be beyond the law and the secret services , will be stopped because there are people prepared to sacrifice themselves and stand up to the bully.

 

It is balanced and contrasted quite neatly with Marys story where a government trained agent has gone rogue is out of control and now considers assasinations as a way to solve problems with their love life..

 

We are supposed to judge where the balance is and whats acceptable on our behalf and whats not because it's a fine line.

Probably one of the most real and relevant things on prime time tv in ages.

 

Also reflects how Sherlock himself needs to find the balance between sentiment and logic - in his work.

[Zain]

I think even if it was premeditated murder it was a brave and heroic and selfless thing Sherlock did.

 

 

[...]

 

We are supposed to judge where the balance is and whats acceptable on our behalf and whats not because it's a fine line.

Probably one of the most real and relevant things on prime time tv in ages.

 

 

 

That's nice if you can see something good in his actions, but I cannot. And frankly, I can neither connect with Mary nor with John in HLV. 

John just seems completely spineless to me when he chooses a lie over the truth, and Mary... her actions and behaviour is just too bewildering to me to identify even in the least with her. And I am sick with the "but that's what's reality like" explanations. Yes, maybe people tend to choose lies over the truth. But that's not what I want to see happening on the screen... If I want to be disappointed by people and their decisions, I can just sit in a café or read a history book.

[BlackButterfly]

@Zain .

For the most part I agree with you. Marys storyline was Incredible and at times impossible and John was not just cast as the dummy but mute for most of SO3.

 

There was a lot more style than substance this series and we are not used to that with Sherlock.

 

Saying that though, as mentioned above I did enjoy Sherlock himself this series..there were some great moments with him and Mycroft .

 

I am attempting to keep faith with the writers and hope next series will have enough substance to fill the holes in SO3 along with the style. Not ready to give up on a show I adore yet, S03 I hope , is more transitional than anything and will fit better with the whole after 04 and 05.

Maybe it will even become funny and we will look back at this hiatus and laugh! X

[sfmpco]

Hope this pic shows up. It was posted on Tumbler... deleted scene from HLV

 

http://guillam.co.vu/post/101473907224/sedxctively-dedxctive-guys-someone-sent-me-this

[sfmpco]

I think the important thing to remember about HLV and most (but not all!) of the episodes is what Mark Gatiss has said - it's not a detective show.  It's a show about a detective.  And I think S2 and S3 began to focus more about him (with the exception of Baskerville).  I enjoy seeing more of the "about a detective" than the detective show.  Sherlock is far more interesting than any of the cases he solves.  So I am looking forward very much to S4 because I am fairly certain it's really, really going to be ABOUT Sherlock and his character development.  I anticipate he will go through the wringer even more than he did in HLV... if that's possible.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hope this pic shows up. It was posted on Tumbler... deleted scene from HLV

 

http://guillam.co.vu/post/101473907224/sedxctively-dedxctive-guys-someone-sent-me-this

 

That picture shows up just fine for me (and doesn't look particularly photoshopped).  Eewww!  Just as glad they left it out, I think, but am now curious as to what actually happened in that scene.  Maybe it's on the extended-edition DVD.  Ours is being shipped today from the UK, so we should have it in a few weeks.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think the important thing to remember about HLV and most (but not all!) of the episodes is what Mark Gatiss has said - it's not a detective show.  It's a show about a detective.  And I think S2 and S3 began to focus more about him (with the exception of Baskerville).  I enjoy seeing more of the "about a detective" than the detective show.  Sherlock is far more interesting than any of the cases he solves....

 

I believe you're right, and that's fine with me -- as long as they go for good organic character development rather than sheer shock value.  Maybe the developments in LV were organic and we just don't yet know how they fit in.  Hopefully S4 will enlighten us.

[sittything]

The deleted scene is on YouTube:  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq6WHwHldFk

 

Warning:  What has been seen cannot be unseen  lol

[T.o.b.y]

I think the important thing to remember about HLV and most (but not all!) of the episodes is what Mark Gatiss has said - it's not a detective show.  It's a show about a detective.  And I think S2 and S3 began to focus more about him (with the exception of Baskerville).  I enjoy seeing more of the "about a detective" than the detective show.  Sherlock is far more interesting than any of the cases he solves.

 

Indeed he is. And I am all for character-based narrative anyway. Still, I did like the casework in series 1. I feel that Sherlock is simply at his best when he is working, and I'd like to see more of that.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh boy, Magnassun was a real sleeze......how creepy is that.

[Arcadia]

.... am now curious as to what actually happened in that scene....

Be careful what you wish for....

 

The deleted scene is on YouTube:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq6WHwHldFk

I don't know about you lot but I'm really glad that's a deleted scene.... ew, ew, ew!! Thanks, sittything, curiosity satisfied, now I have to go flush my eyeballs.....

[sfmpco]

 

.... am now curious as to what actually happened in that scene....

Be careful what you wish for....

 

The deleted scene is on YouTube:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq6WHwHldFk

I don't know about you lot but I'm really glad that's a deleted scene.... ew, ew, ew!! Thanks, sittything, curiosity satisfied, now I have to go flush my eyeballs.....

 

 

Because Sherlock is so drugged up in that deleted scene, I suspect it got cut  because it was like him being drugged up when Mary visited him, and ultimately Mary's scene was more important.

 

As for the W on the single rose, I think there's a commentary somewhere by someone who worked on the set that it was supposed to be from "The Woman," but that W would only be a reference for the viewer unless she knew that's what Sherlock called her also.  And how would she have found out so quickly?  Some say it could be W for Watson - and those of the Johnlock bent want to hope it's from John.  But I say if it's Watson, why not from Mary?  It might be The Woman, but the scene never made the final cut, so it is irrelevant... unless it was included as a cut scene as a foreshadowing of something in S4 - that they are still in touch with each other.  Still, irrelevant since it was cut.

 

Also, I think the W is in the same font style as CAM on his building and helicopter, and it could be that the W is simply upsidedown M - for Magnussen. 

 

Magnussen is even creepier in this scene that when he licked Lady Smallwood's face, however, because Sherlock is completely defenseless.  I almost thought for a moment he was going to kiss Sherlock on the mouth which would have been the ultimate creepiness from him.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

Magnussen is even creepier in this scene that when he licked Lady Smallwood's face, however, because Sherlock is completely defenseless.  I almost thought for a moment he was going to kiss Sherlock on the mouth which would have been the ultimate creepiness from him.

 

 

I agree he's creepier in the deleted scene.  I 2nd the almost kiss.  Lars Mikkelsen is a talented actor who just creeps me out.  And so far Netflix only has 1 movie of his and it was not my kind of movie even though he wasn't creepy in it from the 5 minutes that I saw.