Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

Plus the goodbye scene. Sherlock's a girl name...

 

 

Indeed. There is so, so much subtle emotions there. Brilliant actings.

[STCooper1]

I suppose it is a tribute to the writing of the show and to this fandom that people can have such differing and interesting opinions on the same show , and air them politely . :-)

 

While I agree Smallwoods suicide does seem a bit wussy? I don't think you can say Magnussen acted lawfully and honestly.

Threatening to print stories unless government officials rule the way you want them to on an official enquiry...as is blackmail in general..illegal.

So is theatening to murder - telling bad guys where Mary is , who want to kill her..

So was having John drugged kidnapped and almost burnt to death...

Several crimes there up to and including conspiracy to murder and those were just a few of the ones we saw happen.

 

 

As to the stolen laptop issue , as mentioned , its possible and likely there wasn't even any important information on it . It was just the excuse for a search of Appledore where other incriminating evidence may be found . ( like the video of Johns kidnapping.)

 

As mentioned here several times , Magnussen was stupid , even after Marys close attempt and seeing his men disarm John of various weapons , he failed to ensure J@S were unarmed . He wasn't smart at all he was just a bully.

 

I think its likely that Sherlock as a MI6 agent had some kind of licence to kill...so While it is a murder..the legalities are more complex.

Looks to me like his boss's at MI6 were prepared to punish him in some kind of...doing unpaid overtime...way...but Mycroft pushed for the E Europe job...which also suggests to me Mycroft had further plans brewing.

 

In exposing the information of Smallwood(if he did), Magnussen did act lawfully and honestly as newspapers can legally expose scandalous information, and Magnussen didn't threaten to expose the information to Lady Smallwood if she didn't rule the inquiry in a certain way. Not at all. All he did was inform her that he had and knew the letter's contents and then bluntly told her she was now his property, licking her face to prove it when she verbally defied him. As gross and arrogant a creep as that made Magnussen, that is not blackmail. As I've said in earlier posts on this site, from what we see of his actions, Magnussen isn't even legally a blackmailer. He didn't threaten to murder Mary, he just used the fact that he could contact people who hated her and tell them her location as a scare tactic to force Watson to let him flick his face. Magnussen NEVER would have done so, as hes aware that if he did and something happened to Mary, he wouldn't just lose her, he'd lose John, Sherlock, and Mycroft right along with her. He NEEDS her alive and well to be able to ultimately own Mycroft. True, Magnussen had John abducted and put in the bond fire, but he didn't have him almost burned to death. He guaranteed John's life was in no fatal danger by putting men nearby to get him out in case Sherlock didn't make it in time, which was proven by his possession of the footage of Sherlock and Mary getting John out. His men filmed it, as anyone else there that might have been filming the fire had most definitely shut their cameras off after Watson started screaming, provided anyone else was filming at the time. Overall, John's abduction was the only actual crime we saw happen by Magnussen's hand, and that was nowhere near as bad as what Sherlock did to him for no reason, or what Mary did in her past life. Magnussen was not stupid as he put his guards out front to search John and Sherlock for weapons at Appledore, just as those with him at Baker Street did. He anticipated they might bring a gun and try to kill him after he'd won the battle of wits, but the only reason his murder was possible was because his guards, despite knowing their jobs and why they were there, forgot to search John and Sherlock for weapons as they'd been hired to do and their boss ended up dead as a result. If anything, they were stupid, not Magnussen. Magnussen had an extraordinary intellect rivaling or equal to that of Mycroft Holmes, so he was a genius, not a fool. Far from it. Yes, he was a bully, but you're factually wrong when you call him a fool. The footage of John being pulled out of the fire may not be incriminating as they have to prove he had that done and that his men filmed it, which the footage alone can't do. For all they know, he could have got that from someone else who was just visiting from another country and happened to film it, and who has now returned home(I know I said anyone normal probably wouldn't have done that, but that would make a good lie to why he has it that the police would have a hard time disproving). And his openly admitting to do it, with Sherlock and Watson as witnesses, won't be enough unless they recorded the conversation at that point as then he can just dispute them and it will be their word against his. Not enough for a conviction. Sherlock isn't an agent for MI6 as far as we know, so his action of committing murder and high treason was completely wrong and illegal, and he deserved to be punished for them. As to Mycroft maybe having more plans brewing, I wouldn't be surprised given who and what he is.

[sfmpco]

 

 

Sherlock isn't an agent for MI6 as far as we know, so his action of committing murder and high treason was completely wrong and illegal, and he deserved to be punished for them. As to Mycroft maybe having more plans brewing, I wouldn't be surprised given who and what he is.

 

Magnussen's file on Sherlock shows that he was/is MI6.  When Mycroft said "MI6.  They want to place you back into Eastern Europe" means that MI6 had placed him there before (probably the 2 years of dismantling Moriarty's network).  So he IS MI6.  For him to be a spy is part of original canon. I don't know why people balk at the MI6 thing. No one is trying to make him into James Bond.

 

His committing murder and high treason (if it really was high treason and not just part of a set-up with Mycroft to nail Magnussen) are, as you stated, completely wrong and illegal.  

 

I do believe Magnussen's guards were not so stupid as not to do their jobs.  But even Magnussen says "It's fine.  They're harmless!" So he probably didn't have them searched. Fatal mistake.

[Boton]

 

(I'm just going to come in here with a totally different topic because I have a feeling this debate could go on for days. Feel free to ignore me and carry on).

 

I know I really like this episode, but I keep rewatching the series right up to HLV and then starting over. I just can't bring myself to watch it again. I don't know why.

It could be interesting to try to analyze why.

Maybe the finality, the direction they take, the storyline?

 

For me, I find TSoT much more difficult to watch and still try to analyze why.

 

 

I'm the same.  I watch HLV over and over, and the entire series in order over and over, but I always skip TSoT.  I just can't handle it.

[sfmpco]

I like TSoT.  It's TBB that I skip over.  I even tend to skip HOB.  But HLV has been watched on my computer probably 40 times.

[BlackButterfly]

@STcooper.

Your reply is contraty and confusing.

Maybe rewatch the smoking convo@christmas .Mycroft - 'they' want to offer you another job -return you to ...'etc and the ending where he is forced to take the job-for MI6.

 

Maybe Check wiki page and the theft act 1968 section21 on blackmail fraud and coercion.

Even if he was bluffing...and fooled everyone...guilty.

 

Mary was just the weakest link...had that way failed, likely he would find another , Lestrade , Hudders , Johns job.....whatever. He didn't necessarily need Mary to get at Sherlock.

 

Sherlock was punished...he now has to do more boring jobs for MI6...one assumes.

[STCooper1]

@STcooper.

Your reply is contraty and confusing.

Maybe rewatch the smoking convo@christmas .Mycroft - 'they' want to offer you another job -return you to ...'etc and the ending where he is forced to take the job-for MI6.

 

Maybe Check wiki page and the theft act 1968 section21 on blackmail fraud and coercion.

Even if he was bluffing...and fooled everyone...guilty.

 

Mary was just the weakest link...had that way failed, likely he would find another , Lestrade , Hudders , Johns job.....whatever. He didn't necessarily need Mary to get at Sherlock.

 

Sherlock was punished...he now has to do more boring jobs for MI6...one assumes.

 

Magnussen wasn't blackmailing Lady Smallwood since all he did was make blunt statements that he owned her. Thats arrogance, not blackmail as blackmail is, legally speaking, to threaten to expose embarrassing or incriminating information on someone unless they meet a demand. He didn't make a threat or a demand to or about Smallwood, and Magnussen was therefore not legally a blackmailer. Wrong, What Mycroft said to Sherlock while they were smoking was "I have a job offer which I would like you to decline" and next he said "MI6. They want to place you back into Eastern Europe." He didn't say Sherlock had worked for MI6 before, but that they had a job offer for him. Mary was John's weakness, therefore he needed her to own her husband. Thats the spectrum Magnussen revealed; by owning Mary through his knowledge of her past, he owns her, by owning her he owns John, by owning John he owns Sherlock, and by owning Sherlock he owns Mycroft, and therefore the entire British government. He NEEDS Mary for it to be possible because Watson cares more about her than Holmes or anyone or thing else. it wasn't just a boring job for MI6 that Sherlock was sent to do. He was punished in the most dishonorable way possible as his own brother exiled him for high treason and murder, and sent him own a suicide mission that he said earlier would prove fatal in about 6 months. Then they made a joke of justice by calling him back in 4 minutes when Moriarty's face pops up everywhere in the country.

[STCooper1]

 

 

 

Sherlock isn't an agent for MI6 as far as we know, so his action of committing murder and high treason was completely wrong and illegal, and he deserved to be punished for them. As to Mycroft maybe having more plans brewing, I wouldn't be surprised given who and what he is.

 

Magnussen's file on Sherlock shows that he was/is MI6.  When Mycroft said "MI6.  They want to place you back into Eastern Europe" means that MI6 had placed him there before (probably the 2 years of dismantling Moriarty's network).  So he IS MI6.  For him to be a spy is part of original canon. I don't know why people balk at the MI6 thing. No one is trying to make him into James Bond.

 

His committing murder and high treason (if it really was high treason and not just part of a set-up with Mycroft to nail Magnussen) are, as you stated, completely wrong and illegal.  

 

I do believe Magnussen's guards were not so stupid as not to do their jobs.  But even Magnussen says "It's fine.  They're harmless!" So he probably didn't have them searched. Fatal mistake.

 

 

Incorrect, the guards were stupid as he put them out there for that reason. He hired them to do a job and they'd been with him a while, so Magnussen shouldn't have to tell them constantly to do their jobs and search the guests for weapons. They should have known to and did it, but they forgot and their boss wound up dead. The fact that he dismissed them after they brought in Holmes and Watson to him and later said " Its fine. They're harmless" proves he thought they were unarmed and that his guards had done the job he paid them for. Also, Magnussen's file on Holmes said nothing about him being MI6 and Mycroft's statement "back into Eastern Europe" doesn't mean he was an agent necessarily. It could have been just a passing reference to the fact Sherlock was there before as much as a statement that hes MI6 and that they had put him there. Its not expressly confirmed either way.

[sfmpco]

 

 

 

 

Sherlock isn't an agent for MI6 as far as we know, so his action of committing murder and high treason was completely wrong and illegal, and he deserved to be punished for them. As to Mycroft maybe having more plans brewing, I wouldn't be surprised given who and what he is.

 

Magnussen's file on Sherlock shows that he was/is MI6.  When Mycroft said "MI6.  They want to place you back into Eastern Europe" means that MI6 had placed him there before (probably the 2 years of dismantling Moriarty's network).  So he IS MI6.  For him to be a spy is part of original canon. I don't know why people balk at the MI6 thing. No one is trying to make him into James Bond.

 

His committing murder and high treason (if it really was high treason and not just part of a set-up with Mycroft to nail Magnussen) are, as you stated, completely wrong and illegal.  

 

I do believe Magnussen's guards were not so stupid as not to do their jobs.  But even Magnussen says "It's fine.  They're harmless!" So he probably didn't have them searched. Fatal mistake.

 

 

Incorrect, the guards were stupid as he put them out there for that reason. He hired them to do a job and they'd been with him a while, so Magnussen shouldn't have to tell them constantly to do their jobs and search the guests for weapons. They should have known to and did it, but they forgot and their boss wound up dead. The fact that he dismissed them after they brought in Holmes and Watson to him and later said " Its fine. They're harmless" proves he thought they were unarmed and that his guards had done the job he paid them for. Also, Magnussen's file on Holmes said nothing about him being MI6 and Mycroft's statement "back into Eastern Europe" doesn't mean he was an agent necessarily. It could have been just a passing reference to the fact Sherlock was there before as much as a statement that hes MI6 and that they had put him there. Its not expressly confirmed either way.

 

 

You need to look at Magnussen's read out on Sherlock again because it very specifically shows MI6.  

 

Also, the guards would have searched them.  That was their job.  Why didn't they?  I don't think they forgot.  Did they forget when they went to Sherlock's flat?  No.  Why would they ever "forget" at Magnussen's place?  They aren't stupid. That's what they are paid to do.  Why didn't they? It's all speculation but Magnussen clearly didn't suspect or feel any threat from them.

 

And yes, MI6 had placed him in Eastern Europe before.

[Arcadia]

..... in which case CAM may be alive, an even more horrifying thought on levels of their personal and national security!

Oh no, that's a possibility I don't even want to consider! :P

 

The end of an era is sad, but there is something else. I think I find it.

 

Mycroft's 'don't get involved'.

As confessed by him, in HoB, Sherlock did what he could to detach himself from feelings. I guess it should have started with Redbeard.

Yet, he got involved, and with that all his fears. For caring about others, their well being, for their safety, and for their happiness. Nothing good would come out from his vow, for him. He paid it dearly with TRF and HLV.

 

It's so true, isn't it. Getting involved, open up one's feeling, make you fragile. If we never care about something, it will never hurt us. Yet, we are not made of stone.

 

And then his doubt about what he believes and what he stands for. He felt he needed someone, he felt lonely, he felt left out.

It's so out of space, fish out of water.

So much so that he called Mycroft. Mycroft! And asked him to come, because he might be the only one that could strengthen what he believed, that he could survive without all those people, that it's still alright being alone, that it's still possible to be detached.

But no.

No turning back. Everything betrayed him. He got involved.

 

There. That's why TSoT is difficult to watch for me.

 

That's also why I think the betrayal of Mary hurt him much more than the bullet.

So TSoT is hard to watch because you know what it is leading to? Yes, I get that. Sherlock's being set up for a fall (by the writers) and all we can do is helplessly watch. And the audience is being set up too ... here we spend 8 episodes watching Sherlock become more human and thinking it was a good thing ... then suddenly we find out how awful the consequences can be. Ouch.

 

Still .... "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." At least, I hope that's what Sherlock will learn from this ... he's better off for having friends, even when it hurts, than to feel nothing at all. CAM felt nothing at all and look what he turned out to be.

 

....I don't know why people balk at the MI6 thing. ....

Well, let's see if I can explain it. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't like the idea because it robs Sherlock of his free agency. I prefer to think he's on no team except whichever one he chooses to be on. And also I guess because I trust Sherlock to make more human decisions if he's not a government spy. And finally, I'm fairly certain MI6 has rules which Sherlock doesn't follow, and I'm offended by the idea of anyone being allowed to follow his own rules with the blessing of a vast government agency. In short, I just prefer to believe Sherlock is on the outside, not the inside. Sorry about that.

 

Is there a place other than CAM's "reading" where it's established that Sherlock is MI6? Because the way CAM sees it seems pretty ambiguous to me:

 

"Brother: Mycroft Holmes

MI6 (see file)"

 

For all we know that could mean Mycroft is MI6, not Sherlock, couldn't it? Or that MI6 has a file on Sherlock, or that Sherlock's had some dealings with MI6 that CAM could use as a pressure point? Just one of a million little things Moftiss has chosen to torture us with by not explaining it... :D

[Boton]

 

Well, let's see if I can explain it. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't like the idea because it robs Sherlock of his free agency. I prefer to think he's on no team except whichever one he chooses to be on. And also I guess because I trust Sherlock to make more human decisions if he's not a government spy. And finally, I'm fairly certain MI6 has rules which Sherlock doesn't follow, and I'm offended by the idea of anyone being allowed to follow his own rules with the blessing of a vast government agency. In short, I just prefer to believe Sherlock is on the outside, not the inside. Sorry about that.

Is there a place other than CAM's "reading" where it's established that Sherlock is MI6? Because the way CAM sees it seems pretty ambiguous to me:

 

"Brother: Mycroft Holmes

MI6 (see file)"

 

For all we know that could mean Mycroft is MI6, not Sherlock, couldn't it? Or that MI6 has a file on Sherlock, or that Sherlock's had some dealings with MI6 that CAM could use as a pressure point? Just one of a million little things Moftiss has chosen to torture us with by not explaining it... :D

 

 

 

I find the CAM "file" on Sherlock confusing too, because my eyes insist on seeing the quoted part above as a reference to Mycroft being in MI6, not Sherlock.  But I see how it could be interpreted otherwise.

 

Personally, I think Sherlock freelances for MI6 on occasion, just like he does for the Met.  He may find it useful to keep that connection active, because he may need their help for situations like Moriarty's network (which I also assume is what is meant by "they want to place you back into Eastern Europe").  

But I think that he remains very much a freelancer/consultant.  The fact that MI6 could want Sherlock for a job and even Mycroft cannot compel him to take it (Mycroft said he wanted Sherlock to decline the job) means that Sherlock is not under the employ of MI6.  He can say yes or no, so he presumably retains his agency and only take the jobs that are up to his standards, whatever they may be at the time.

[sfmpco]

But why is it so difficult to imagine that the writers would work the MI6 thing into the episode when in the original canon Sherlock Holmes did some spy work?    

 

I don't think MI6 would have been wanting to place Sherlock back into Eastern Europe if Sherlock was too much of a wild canon.  Clearly they had a job they thought he was perfect for because of his skill set.  I just don't think Sherlock prefers that type of work.  He prefers being a maverick, and he also prefers more local work.  He's a home-boy.

 

MI6 did not approach Sherlock directly but approached Mycroft first.  Mycroft could have turned it down for Sherlock, but he didn't.  He brought it up to Sherlock while they were having a smoke and asked Sherlock to decline.  That way Mycroft could officially say that Sherlock had declined.  There is a MI6 file on Sherlock.  That whole conversation while they are smoking makes that perfectly clear.  It may have only been the Moriarty dismantling time, but clearly MI6 liked him and wants to work with him again.  The fact that this conversation even takes place further validates Magnussen's MI6 readout on him.

 

Whatever the case was that was offered, even Mycroft didn't think Sherlock would survive it which is why he added, "Your loss would break my heart."

 

In the end, however, he IS being sent on that very MI6 mission.

 

[Arcadia]

Whether CAM was doing anything illegal or not isn't, I think, the point the writers were trying to make. The point is, CAM was ruining lives, and no one could stop him from doing it. No one, that is, until Lady Smallwood found someone who was willing to wind up in Hell if only it meant he could take Magnussen there with him.
 
Sherlock threatened as much when he was on the roof with Moriarty, but I have to admit, I didn't entirely believe him at the time. After CAM, I'm more inclined to believe him. (Although in my heart of hearts, I still don't, not really; in spite of everything, I have to think there are some levels Sherlock won't stoop to.)
 
Was shooting CAM legal? Most assuredly not. Was it justice? Ah, that's a harder one. While we're at it, was justice being done when Sherlock was sent into exile as punishment for murder? Or was justice being done when he was called back to the home he had sacrificed his future for? I think those are the kind of questions at the heart of the story, not questions about laws and legality. I guess that's yet another reason I love this episode; it asks questions that can't really be answered except in your own heart.

[sfmpco]

I have to think how many of us, if in Sherlock's position, might not have done the same thing?  We never really know what we will do until our backs are pressed so firmly to the wall that there seems no way out except to do the unthinkable.

[Arcadia]

I have to think how many of us, if in Sherlock's position, might not have done the same thing?  We never really know what we will do until our backs are pressed so firmly to the wall that there seems no way out except to do the unthinkable.

Well, that is why I use phrases like "I want to believe" and "I like to think." I'm just stating my preferences; I don't KNOW anything. And it seems to me Moftiss works overtime to keep it that way .... :D

 

I missed seeing your previous post while I was busy off typing my previous opus, so here you go ....

 

But why is it so difficult to imagine that the writers would work the MI6 thing into the episode when in the original canon Sherlock Holmes did some spy work?

Oh, it's not difficult to imagine at all; I just don't like the idea.

 

I have a similar response somewhere on this thread to the shooting of CAM. I understand, from a dramatic narrative p.o.v., why shooting CAM was a, um, satisfactory solution. But I still don't LIKE it, because I have my own ideas about the kind of character I would like Sherlock to be. I'd like him to be the kind of character that would NOT shoot an unarmed man in the head, no matter what the provocation. But that's just me .... other solutions are perfectly plausible. Same with MI6; I, personally, would not like it if Sherlock were a sanctioned government agent. But I can see why that would make sense from a storyteller's p.o.v.

 

I don't think MI6 would have been wanting to place Sherlock back into Eastern Europe if Sherlock was too much of a wild canon.

Exactly. I LIKE the idea of Sherlock as a loose cannon; therefore, I don't want him to be in MI6! :D

 

... clearly MI6 liked him and wants to work with him again...

You're probably right. (Occam's Razor seems the appropriate thing to invoke here. ) But I have this little niggling idea ... which is, MI6 doesn't want to work with Sherlock, they want to get rid of him. I have no basis for this idea other than the thought that Sherlock IS a loose cannon, ergo, it makes no sense that MI6 would actually want him to work for them. Therefore, they must have another reason for trying to send him on a suicide mission....

 

And that's about as devious as I get, folks! Clearly, I have spent too much time thinking about this show, it's making me  paranoid...

[sfmpco]

I'd like to think I wouldn't kill, but if it was between me and someone else and one of us was going to kill the other, I'd try to make sure I was the one left standing.  Okay, i know that isn't the CAM situation but Sherlock didn't just save John and Mary.  He saved whole countries and governments and everyone that CAM had ever bullied.

[Arcadia]

No argument from me there.
 
And congratulations to us!!!!        We have hereby started the 200th page of the HLV thread! Is there a prize?

[sfmpco]

I'm still on 199.

[Arcadia]

Rats. Now I'll have to send everyone home from the party.

[sfmpco]

Leave up the party items.  200 is coming quickly!

[Arcadia]

I'll just hang onto them until we reach post #4000, shall I? At the rate we're going, that should be in about ten minutes .... :D

[sfmpco]

Until the thread reaches #4000 post or until I do?  I don't think I'll get there until sometime in the late summer.

[Arcadia]

The thread. We've already pushed it three notches closer! :P

[sfmpco]

Here's another notch in the HLV belt...

[sfmpco]

We can always go back to discussing that deleted Magnussen scene.  Licking Lady Smallwood's face was creepy enough, but practically starting foreplay on a drugged up Sherlock in  hospital was extraordinarily creepy.