Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[STCooper1]

 

 

No.  Once Sherlock learned of CAM's mental powers in the cafe, Sherlock recognized the 'final solution' likely would have to be the killing of CAM.  That's why he demanded to see the vault - as opposed to simply demanding CAM's files on Mary.  Sherlock needed to confirm his suspicion - as well as give him the time and opportunity to plan on killing CAM.

In this case, the "deal with the devil" was literal - it was not a deal with CAM.  It was a deal Sherlock made with the devil himself - trading his own life for John's life.  And it was a deal he made far before "this point".

 

 

Wrong again, Sherlock did not demand to see the vaults, he demanded to be shown and given the documents Magnussen had on Mary in return for the laptop's password. Magnussen even asked him if what he mean't was the vaults when Sherlock said "Then why don't you show us", and Sherlock answered and I quote "I want...everything you've got...on Mary". So he didn't ask to be shown the vaults or he'd have answered with a simple "Yes" to that question. On top of what I pointed out in my last reply comment to you, all this applies too.
 

 

 

[sfmpco]

Not to dwell on that porn preference thing, but when we see that scroll through Magnussen's mind palace, Sherlock has already been "dating" Janine for a bit.  I'm sure CAM knows every move she makes and would have therefore at least assumed heterosexuality, especially if she was spending the night at 221B (despite Sherlock not being there). This would have been even more confirmed in his mind later when Janine sold her fake stories to the tabloids about his prowess.  CAM didn't buy into the drug thing which Sherlock had been probably working on for a month or so.  

 

Not sure whatever was the result of the phone call Sherlock received after getting his urine tested - the his drug addiction was hitting the papers.  What was the catalyst for that exactly?

[T.o.b.y]

 

Not sure whatever was the result of the phone call Sherlock received after getting his urine tested - the his drug addiction was hitting the papers.  What was the catalyst for that exactly?

 

I think that was put in to let the audience know why Sherlock had been in the drug den in the first place, that he wasn't primarily using for the fun of it, but wanted to give Magnussen an opening for "negotiating" with him.

 

Sherlock's approach isn't that bad, actually. It makes sense that when you're dealing with someone who you know will pounce on your weak spots and use them against you, you feed him something that seems bad on the surface but doesn't really bother you. Unfortunately, Magnussen saw right through that. He was clever, whatever else we may say about him.

 

[Boton]

Not to dwell on that porn preference thing, but when we see that scroll through Magnussen's mind palace, Sherlock has already been "dating" Janine for a bit.  I'm sure CAM knows every move she makes and would have therefore at least assumed heterosexuality, especially if she was spending the night at 221B (despite Sherlock not being there). This would have been even more confirmed in his mind later when Janine sold her fake stories to the tabloids about his prowess.  CAM didn't buy into the drug thing which Sherlock had been probably working on for a month or so.  

 

Not sure whatever was the result of the phone call Sherlock received after getting his urine tested - the his drug addiction was hitting the papers.  What was the catalyst for that exactly?

 

I assume that the Sherlock/Janine relationship served to confirm what Magnussen already knew from getting some information from Sherlock's own computer, and that all we can really assume is that Magnussen knew that he had looked at porn more than once or more than in a concentrated period (as you would with just doing it for a case), and that what he looked at didn't contradict his dating Janine (so, probably heterosexual or predominantly hetero porn).  I'm rubbish at knowing how you track individual computers, but maybe even Janine could help install whatever "bug" would allow Sherlock's specific computer could be tracked.  

 

I don't know what the phone call was either.  There are two possibilities that come to mind.  Either the creators realized a phone call was a better way to convey the information and get Sherlock temporarily out of the room than having him get a Google alert, or members of his "homeless network" are not all homeless and may extend into lower level positions in newsrooms and the like, who would then alert Sherlock.

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

 

Not sure whatever was the result of the phone call Sherlock received after getting his urine tested - the his drug addiction was hitting the papers.  What was the catalyst for that exactly?

 

I assume it is on your signature. 

He was not undercover anymore that morning because John had kicked him out of drug den in a big fuss.  :lol:

[sfmpco]

Yes, but what would be their incentive?

[Arcadia]

That was my take as well; they were recognized, and either a reporter was contacting him for a comment, or it had already been published and was being tweeted, or something like that. He seemed to be taking a call, though, that's what made me think a reporter was calling/texting.

[sfmpco]

I felt like he was taking a call from an informant.

[Arcadia]

Or that, yeah.

 

Didn't I read somewhere that ACD Holmes had a lot of friends among the "less fortunate" -- because he gave them money and did detective work for them free of charge? I hope that's true, I like that idea.

[STCooper1]

 

 

...if Sherlock really wanted to keep John out of any murder charges, he would not have brought him along at all.

No.  His purpose in visiting CAM's residence was to see if the vault existed or not.  To do so required his elaborate ruse, and that ruse required the presence of John.

 

That is why Sherlock then needed the impartial witnesses - to show John was not a party to the killing.

 

 

Also, if everything that happens at "Appledore" (btw, what a stupid name - is Magnussen a Harry Potter fan?) was just what Sherlock planned, his attitude of utter defeat after Magnussen reveals the vaults only exist inside his head makes no sense.

No.  His attitude makes perfect sense.  It just wasn't one of utter defeat.  Nor was it of surprise.  It was of recognition of what he would now have to do - and what it would mean.  This is when the little boy recognized his 'final solution' was unavoidable - as was what it would cost him.

 

 

 

 

Wrong, if the laptop theft was a "ruse", Sherlock didn't need John there for it to serve that purpose, and his attitude was of utter defeat since he had no idea what the vaults were before Magnussen showed him. If he had known what the vaults were and that murdering Magnussen would have to be done, he wouldn't have stolen the laptop and guaranteed he'd be caught red-handed for murder and treason after he'd committed the act. And he surely wouldn't have brought John along then either as that puts his best friend in the same bad position as himself. Even if he made sure he was seen committing the murder, john could still be charge with Accessory to Murder for being the person used to make it possible and, at least, as a party to high treason for going along with Sherlock and doing nothing to prevent him from stealing the laptop or trading it illegally for information on Mary.

[STCooper1]

 

 

 

But the look on Sherlock's face is not one of surprise or defeat.  It is one of unavoidable negative consequences.

 

In point of fact, when Magnussen opened the vault doors and showed him and Watson what was inside, Sherlock was so shocked it took his breath away and had trouble swallowing. So yes, he was surprised and his face read defeat perfectly, especially with that close-up right after Watson follows after Magnussen, where Sherlock closes his eyes in defeat.

[sfmpco]

Yes, he realizes he has just been out-played.

[Van Buren Supernova]

And being someone who also has extensive Mind Palace, he could see how much it makes sense.

[STCooper1]

 

You are free to interpret Sherlock's intentions as you wish - maybe it was to confirm a (thought but unspoken) deduction, maybe he wanted access to material evidence against Mary prior to the arrival of the police to arrest CAM (this is the motive to which CAM refers), or maybe other people have other interpretations. However, what you think a character's motivation might be is nothing more than your personal opinion unless it is stated in the script, which it is not.

Funny that I've pointed to the facts in the script four times now and yet you keep blithely declaring they do not exist.   Sherlock's explicitly stated motivation in the script is to see the vault.  So, contrary to your claim, it is far more than merely "personal opinion".  Nor is it, contrary to your claim, just "personal opinion" that Sherlock recognizes in the cafe that CAM has Appledore in his mind - ie that CAM himself is the "portable Appledore".  That explicit revelation is the entire point of that scripted scene.  And, contrary to your claim, it is not "personal opinion" but fact that the script reveals Sherlock has the entire plan put together right after discovering the vault is mental rather than digital - right down to the day it will occur - months later on Christmas - and down to the explicit motivation for it:  Sherlock's "deal with the devil" is, contrary to your claim, explicitly stated right in the script, to be the betrayal of his brother - not for Mary's files - but to see the vault.

 

Everything I've stated about Sherlock's motivation has, contrary to your claims, been in the script.  In fact, the script virtually beats the viewer over the head with it - especially with Sherlock's discovery that Appledore is in CAM's mind.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to claim all of this doesn't exist in the script, but if it is more "fun" for you that these scripted facts not exist, then far be it for me to stand in the way of your "enjoyment".  If you truly don't want to talk about them further, then I won't discuss them with you any longer either.  Seems fair enough.

 

 

 

 

 

In point of fact, YOU RedCap, are the one who has stated opinions, not Slithytove, as none of those facts you mentioned from the script mean what you say they do. They are OPINIONS only. Just your interpretation of the facts.

[Arcadia]

That's true of everyone, isn't it? Just our interpretations and opinions, no one here has a lock on the truth.

[Inge l-w]

Except when it is a CURLY lock on a specific actor's head, apparently ^_^

[Arcadia]

True, true!! :D

[STCooper1]

Yeah, but is it? Mary made a choice to get away from that lifestyle for whatever reason, and only got pulled back into it because CAM was blackmailing her. She went on that adventure with Sherlock in TEH, but only because John was in danger and she went with Sherlock to save him. I don't think (or at least, we've been given no indication) that she has gone with them on any other outings since Sherlock has been back. And with a baby on the way, is she going to be running off with them for crime fighting? 

 

This is all kind of a moot point I'm making, since I don't expect her to survive season 4 (though I am wrong on quite a few occasions). But I just wonder if we will see any other scenes depicting John running off and not being satisfied with a "normal" life. I think it's the action and adventure he needs... sitting at home with a wife who just happens to be a former assassin might not be enough. 

 

(I realize we did have Mary going with John to the crack house, but that seemed more about making sure he stayed out of trouble, and she didn't leave the car. I don't see her sitting outside crime scenes with a baby seat in the back.) 

 

No, in point of fact Magnussen DIDN'T blackmail Mary. All he did was let her know he knew the truth. Never did she say or was it stated in any way that he blackmailed her.

[STCooper1]

 

 

/> />

You are free to interpret Sherlock's intentions as you wish - maybe it was to confirm a (thought but unspoken) deduction, maybe he wanted access to material evidence against Mary prior to the arrival of the police to arrest CAM (this is the motive to which CAM refers), or maybe other people have other interpretations. However, what you think a character's motivation might be is nothing more than your personal opinion unless it is stated in the script, which it is not.

Funny that I've pointed to the facts in the script four times now and yet you keep blithely declaring they do not exist. Sherlock's explicitly stated motivation in the script is to see the vault. So, contrary to your claim, it is far more than merely "personal opinion". Nor is it, contrary to your claim, just "personal opinion" that Sherlock recognizes in the cafe that CAM has Appledore in his mind - ie that CAM himself is the "portable Appledore". That explicit revelation is the entire point of that scripted scene. And, contrary to your claim, it is not "personal opinion" but fact that the script reveals Sherlock has the entire plan put together right after discovering the vault is mental rather than digital - right down to the day it will occur - months later on Christmas - and down to the explicit motivation for it: Sherlock's "deal with the devil" is, contrary to your claim, explicitly stated right in the script, to be the betrayal of his brother - not for Mary's files - but to see the vault.

 

Everything I've stated about Sherlock's motivation has, contrary to your claims, been in the script. In fact, the script virtually beats the viewer over the head with it - especially with Sherlock's discovery that Appledore is in CAM's mind. I'm not sure why you keep trying to claim all of this doesn't exist in the script, but if it is more "fun" for you that these scripted facts not exist, then far be it for me to stand in the way of your "enjoyment". If you truly don't want to talk about them further, then I won't discuss them with you any longer either. Seems fair enough.

 

 

Please *quote* lines/stage directions - *not* 'he looked like this which meant he was thinking this'. If you can't do that, we're going to have to agree to differ and accept that none of us know except the writers - and if you are one of the writers undercover, i'm sorry but you didn't do a good enough job of conveying what you wanted to get across!

 

I'm sorry my summary of the words and actions of the script are not convincing.  However, I am more than happy to quote the actual words and actions from the script as they occur on-screen, if that is what you truly require (though, for the record, I never said anything like 'he looked like this which meant he was thinking this'.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  I have stated 'He did or saw this, which is why he looked like that'.  If you truly believe otherwise, then I would request you do the same that you request of me: provide my actual words - ie please "quote" me.)

 

Now, here is when Sherlock discovers CAM's vault is in his mind:

 

Sherlock:

"Oh, I think you're a lot more careless than you let on."

 

CAM

"Am I?"

 

Sherlock:

"It's the dead-eye stare that gives it away.  Except it's not dead-eyed, is it?

 

Sherlock takes off CAM's glasses.

 

"You're reading.  Portable Appledore.  How does it work?  Built-in flash drive?  4G wireless?"

 

Sherlock puts the glasses on.  He realizes they are normal glasses.  

 

Sherlock:

"Just ordinary spectacles."

 

CAM:

"Yes. They are."

 

We see CAM's view again - and see the readout we've seen all along, except now without the glasses.  It is thus similar to what we see when Sherlock identifies things in his mind.

 

CAM:

"You underestimate me Mr. Holmes."

 

So, as I've stated numerous times now, in the script Sherlock identifies the fact that CAM is reading. 

 

What is CAM reading though?  The script makes clear he has no papers physically in his hands.  So he's not reading physical files. 

 

The script does have CAM wearing glasses though.  Thus the script has Sherlock conclude that CAM is reading something digitally in the glasses (something akin to an HUD). 

 

The script has Sherlock attempt to confirm his deduction about what CAM is reading by taking the glasses to view the vault himself. 

 

But was CAM reading from the glasses? 

 

No. 

 

So - the script tells us Sherlock knows CAM is reading.  But the script now tells us Sherlock knows CAM was not reading physical files nor digital files.  

 

So what was CAM reading then?

 

In the script, CAM tells Sherlock his deduction - that CAM supposedly requires an external source to be able to read his files - underestimates CAM.  In other words, the script has CAM state to Sherlock that the belief that CAM requires files to be either physical or digital is an underestimation of what CAM is capable.

 

So the script tells us Sherlock knows CAM is reading. 

And the script tells us Sherlock knows CAM is not reading anything physical or digital. 

 

So if the script eliminates for Sherlock the files being physical or digital, what does the script then leave him? 

The mental, of course.  The script leaves for Sherlock only the fact that CAM is reading mental files - files in his mind - the files which the script had Sherlock call the "portable Appledore". 

 

In other words, the script leaves for Sherlock the fact that CAM holds Appledore in his his mind.

 

Pretty simple actually.  And all in the script.  One simply need pay attention to it.  

 

Now, I can provide the verbatim quotes from the script for all the rest of the points I made as well, if you really need them.  Just let me know.  However, since this is the most important point of them all - Sherlock's recognition that the "portable Appledore" is not the glasses but is in fact CAM's mind - it should suffice to prove what I've been stating.  For if the script itself is not enough to convince you, then nothing will.

 

 

 

Wrong, the script confirms that Sherlock THINKS Magnussen is reading because of the dead-eyed stare. That fact that he said "Is it" along with "Except its not dead-eyed" proves that, not that he KNEW Magnussen was.

[STCooper1]

Everytime Magnussen did a 'reading', he put on his glasses. Maybe he was lying about his exceptional memory. Why would he tell the truth? Also Moriarty had an unbelievable story about a computercode, remember?

 

I don't understand why Mary had a exceptional memory too. Anyone?

 

No, Magnussen wasn't lying about having an exceptional memory, as later proved by his Mind Palace's immense size and capacity. He has a EXTRAORDINARY memory.

[sfmpco]

We don't know the extent of Mary's memory abilities, but suffice to say that as a former intelligence agent, she would have needed to possess certain memory skills.

[Boton]

We don't know the extent of Mary's memory abilities, but suffice to say that as a former intelligence agent, she would have needed to possess certain memory skills.

 

Right, and even Sherlock points out in the "addicted to a certain lifestyle" scene that she has an exceptionally retentive memory, with the flashback to her remembering Sholto's room number.  So if Sherlock is impressed with her memory, she must be good.  :-)

[STCooper1]

And CAM does mislead Sherlock by flashing envelopes at the interview at 221b. And it's clear, especially at the end, that Sherlock doesn't  want CAM to have been depending fully on a "mind vault". He wants there to be a paper trial. He did not want to have to kill the man.

 

  Sherlock has a mind palace and can access it easily but he also has a computer and books. He seemingly was hoping CAM had at least real paper.

 

No, CAM didn't mislead Sherlock about the letters and he does have everything in his Mind Palace in physical form elsewhere away from Appledore, as he confirmed after the Mind Palace display. What Sherlock thought as his best educated guess was that they were at Appledore, and that theory was completely wrong.

[STCooper1]

 

/>

Everytime Magnussen did a 'reading', he put on his glasses. Maybe he was lying about his exceptional memory. Why would he tell the truth? Also Moriarty had an unbelievable story about a computercode, remember?

 

I don't understand why Mary had a exceptional memory too. Anyone?

It's interesting,because if there are truly no vaults,he has no evidence,as John points out. He says he doesn't need evidence because he prints it in the papers, and certainly that is enough to destroy someone's reputation whether there is evidence or not. But according to Sherlock at the beginning, Magnusson does do deals with people when he's ready,so what does he give them in the exchange? The promise of his silence wouldn't be particularly reassuring for me....! The thing is he doesn't need to remember that much information, just enough to convince people he has more, surely? - he doesn't seem to be tested on it very often. He said he could call up people who hated Mary, but he doesn't do so because John isn't going to risk it. So how do we know? It is very clever!

 

 

Magnussen did have evidence, as he points out to John right after the Mind Palace display.

[BlackButterfly]

Magnussen didn't really need any evidence in regard to Mary anyway , the threat was to tell people who hated and wanted to kill Mary where she was. Publishing a story in the papers about Mary was never on the cards because Magnussen didn't care at all about Mary the whole thing was about Mycroft and his attempted takeover of the uk government people.

 

It's difficult to believe post SH shooting that Sherlock and Mycroft didn't have plans to cover all contingencies at Appledore as they did for Moriarty on the roof...and all those possible scenarios.

I think the smoking convo SH@MH had at christmas was about framing Magnussen or alternatively killing him and playing the get out jail free , here be dragons , Moriarty alive card.

Of course it doesn't look like that on the surface , Mycroft cannot be seen or heard colluding in Magnussens murder - no matter how necessary.

Just another magic trick where people take their eye off the magician.

Either by collusion or coincidence Sherlock and Mycroft have got what they wanted , and as in TRF , they will claim victory.