Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[STCooper1]

Series 3 Ep 3 - His Last Vow

 

OK, biggest issue (Without spoiling the show for those who haven't seen it) Where does the video of Watson being burned under the Guy Fawkes bonfire come from?

Watson / Sherlock are shown watching the video at Appledore so it isn't just in Magnusson's head. If we assume what Magnusson says to be true in the episode, Magnusson has no physical or digital files supposedly, everything is in his mind palace, so where does this video come from?

 

 

Second, Magnusson is supposedly a newspaper man and uses his paper to reveal secrets. Okay, given the point above, if he prints something in his paper to reveal a secret and gets sued for libel and / or slander, where is the proof protecting himself? No one has ever called his bluff? 

 

You missed it, I see. After his Mind Palace display, Magnussen openly says to Watson in reply to his comment about the lack of evidence saying "Well, sometimes I send out for something if I really need it, but mostly I just remember it all". He showed evidence this claim was true earlier in the episode when he showed Holmes and Watson the letters from Lord Smallwood to that girl. That reply line confirms the blackmail knowledge in his Mind Palace is still in his possession and safely stored away somewhere else than Appledore where he can send for through trusted underlings should he need anything. Therefore, if he were to be sued for libel or slander, hes got all the proof he'll ever need to win.

[STCooper1]

Wow!!  Saw this Sunday night and loved every minute!  I fall firmly in the 'Mary is a victim' catagory; a victim of Magnusson, victim of her past, a victim of her love for John, and a victim of her terrible decision to shoot Sherlock. 

 

On Mary:   I suspect that most have something in their past that they would rather not share with their most beloved mate.  It isn't necessarly lying to keep it to oneself.  Also not out of the realm of possibility that someone with a dark past would want to change that; experience an epiphany, try to change the course their life had taken to something better.  Why not Mary?  And what if she truly feels that the truth of her past would be the death of her relationship with John?   In the first two episodes it seems clear to me that Mary loves John deeply, and given this would protect their relationship at any cost.

 

All this may have run through her mind in the instant that she is confronted with the man that could reveal all to John, and while she has a gun in her hand.    She came to kill Magnusson because he was blackmailing her...she killed Sherlock because he could also reveal her past, and it was, as she saw it, the only alternative at the time that would buy her time and not implicate John in the proceedings.  What an awful tangle to be confronted with!  A terrible decision with terrible repurcussions, but I pity her instead of hating her.

 

That John would forgive her, and not even read the A.G.R.A thumbdrive, speaks to me of a gift of trust that he gives Mary.  That her past self is not important to him, that her present self is.  That she is Mary Morstan Watson to him, and that is more than enough.

 

I love this love story.  I loved that John seemed more a person than an appendage of Sherlock's.  And of course I loved Sherlock, especially as he clawed his way from death to life.  

 Wrong, Magnussen was not blackmailing Mary and she was going to murder him just because he knew the truth about her. Completely psychotic and unnecessary.

[STCooper1]

Actually, I think Mary was going to kill Magnusson because he could tell John ( and also, because she knew it was him that put John in the fire), not because she might go to jail.  And I guess I believe in the redemptive power of love.  Consider; John was/is a soldier and has killed in his career.  We speculate that Mary's victims were innocent...we know no more than John does about that, and that is nothing. 

 

Wrong, Mary was going to murder Magnussen because he knew the truth about her and she could go to prison for the rest of her life, which she openly admitted to in the episode, and she had NO way of knowing Magnussen put John in the bondfire.

[sfmpco]

If Mary, as an assassin, really wanted to kill Magnussen, she would have been in and out of there quickly.  She would not have tolerated any negotiation from him.  But he was pleading his case and she was not pulling the trigger.  He was attempting to strike a bargain by reminding her that she was married to a good man.   There is something more to Mary's relationship to Magnussen than just him having files on her.  It's hard to know if she actually would have killed him if Sherlock hadn't intervened.  

[sfmpco]

 

Actually, I think Mary was going to kill Magnusson because he could tell John ( and also, because she knew it was him that put John in the fire), not because she might go to jail.  And I guess I believe in the redemptive power of love.  Consider; John was/is a soldier and has killed in his career.  We speculate that Mary's victims were innocent...we know no more than John does about that, and that is nothing. 

 

Wrong, Mary was going to murder Magnussen because he knew thr truth about her and she could go to prison for the rest of her life, which she openly admitted to in the episode, and she had NO way of knowing Magnussen put John in the bondfire.

 

 

Just a note... you are likely responding to people no longer active on the forum.  

[BlackButterfly]

This is the final problem debate now really.

We don't live in an ideal world , evil exists ( Moriarty Magnussen Mary ) , and for evil to triumph all that is required is for good men ( Sherlock John ) to do nothing.

So while the bad guys are out there , good people will have to do bad things to stop them.

It's made very clear that Moriarty@ Magnussen etc are untouchable by the law so we need people like SH until the world becomes 'ideal' or god turns up. I don't see that happening anytime soon.....

 

I think the writers are actually making a rather ironic joke , that by shooting Magnussen , Sherlock does something... and becomes not just the great man but also a good one.

Altho it's rather sad that in managing to avoid a forced fall from grace/sin via Moriartys suicide plan , Magnussen managed to goad @ bully Sherlock into it.

But it does make Sherlock more human..as one of the writers said.

HLV is messed up one hopes it won't be the point people look back at and go...thats when Sherlock went down the pan.

 

Ty for clarifying position ST.

@YaY decent convo and beer! Cheers!

[sfmpco]

BTW, I did go ahead and tweet Gatiss and Vertue about the 4000th HLV thread.... no response yet.

[T.o.b.y]

If Mary, as an assassin, really wanted to kill Magnussen, she would have been in and out of there quickly. She would not have tolerated any negotiation from him. But he was pleading his case and she was not pulling the trigger. He was attempting to strike a bargain by reminding her that she was married to a good man. There is something more to Mary's relationship to Magnussen than just him having files on her. It's hard to know if she actually would have killed him if Sherlock hadn't intervened.

I keep thinking the same thing, that if Mary wanted Magnussen dead, he'd have been half decomposed already by the end of the episode. Perhaps she really was trying to negotiate, or she wanted information from him, like how he found out about her, who else knows, etc.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

If Mary, as an assassin, really wanted to kill Magnussen, she would have been in and out of there quickly. She would not have tolerated any negotiation from him. But he was pleading his case and she was not pulling the trigger. He was attempting to strike a bargain by reminding her that she was married to a good man. There is something more to Mary's relationship to Magnussen than just him having files on her. It's hard to know if she actually would have killed him if Sherlock hadn't intervened.

I keep thinking the same thing, that if Mary wanted Magnussen dead, he'd have been half decomposed already by the end of the episode. Perhaps she really was trying to negotiate, or she wanted information from him, like how he found out about her, who else knows, etc.

I can totally see Mary trying to negotiate the info from CAM then offing him after he gave the info or if he decided to remain being a bully.

[Arcadia]

.... But no, Magnussen was shown to actually be a blackmailer, not legally speaking. He was just called one. Legally, to be a blackmailer you have to make threats and demands that something be met or else you'll expose this information. Magnussen didn't do that, from what we see in the episode. He makes deals yes, but how they come about is unknown......

"From what we see in the episode."

 

There are a lot of things we don't see in every episode, but we can be pretty sure they happened nevertheless. We didn't see John and Mary get married, but I think it's fairly safe to assume they did. We don't see Sherlock buy Janine's ring, but does that mean he must have stolen it? We don't see what Magnussen demanded in return for his silence, but isn't it at least possible it happened anyway? After all, Sherlock -- one of the most observant men in the world -- called him a blackmailer. Where did Sherlock get this idea, unless there was some evidence?

 

I'm just saying ... we can't know for sure. I for one am inclined to take Sherlock Holmes at his word, but of course that doesn't mean you have to.

 

Was he {Sherlock} repentant?  Does he feel any remorse?

 

According to the man who wrote the episode: no. Fortunately for us fans, neither grace nor mercy require that he be.

 

If Mary, as an assassin, really wanted to kill Magnussen, she would have been in and out of there quickly.  She would not have tolerated any negotiation from him.  But he was pleading his case and she was not pulling the trigger.  He was attempting to strike a bargain by reminding her that she was married to a good man.   There is something more to Mary's relationship to Magnussen than just him having files on her.  It's hard to know if she actually would have killed him if Sherlock hadn't intervened.

Or maybe she's not quite the ruthless killer we are (apparently) meant to believe she is? Probably just wishful thinking, but I keep hoping there's something to Mary than "just" an assassin; something a little more believeable, for one thing.

 

I think the writers are actually making a rather ironic joke , that by shooting Magnussen , Sherlock does something... and becomes not just the great man but also a good one.

Altho it's rather sad that in managing to avoid a forced fall from grace/sin via Moriartys suicide plan , Magnussen managed to goad @ bully Sherlock into it.

Aha. That's the crux of it for me; Sherlock let Magnussen win. But then, I think that was one point of HLV; what does Sherlock do when he's beaten? (He cheats, apparently. ;) Reminds me of a certain star ship captain.....) 

 

BTW, I did go ahead and tweet Gatiss and Vertue about the 4000th HLV thread.... no response yet.

Wait til we get to the 5000th post and see if they ignore us then!!!

 

I keep thinking the same thing, that if Mary wanted Magnussen dead, he'd have been half decomposed already by the end of the episode.

Stop it, you, it hurts to laugh!!!!!

[sfmpco]

Definitely Mary took her time cozying up to Janine to get to Magnussen, and then one month after she's married she's ready to take Magnussen down?  I think there's an unexplained clue in CAM's wedding telegram.  Something that startled her enough right then that he knew about her.  Almost saying in a sinister voice, "I know what you do for a living..." So she was feeling pressure even then from him.

[sfmpco]

Look, I'm not saying that there are murders who never deserve a pardon.  Like Charles Manson.  The guy is deranged.  He should have gotten the death penalty, but no, we've been paying his prison room and board for 50 years.  He will never get out and never should get out.  He is not a model citizen, he will never be a model citizen, and if he ever did get out, Roman Polanski would probably hire hit men to take him out.

 

But I don't put what Sherlock did in the same category as Charles Manson.  Sherlock became an assassin in a way.  He finished the job that Mary couldn't.  I'm not condoning how he handled it, but was it premeditated?  Did he leave his parents house planning to kill Magnussen?  I just don't think he did. I really think he thought he could negotiate his way out, just like Mary likely thought.  And btw, it could very well be that Mary was willing to blackmail Magnussen... ie., "I am an assassin, and I will kill you at any time without warning, if you breathe a word of what you know to anyone."  

 

Sherlock couldn't pull the gun on Magnussen inside his house.  John would have talked him out of it.  Plus there were guards everywhere who would have seen it and come to Magnussen's immediate rescue.  So, negotiations have failed.  Sherlock is out-played.  Now, if Mycroft were truly in on the whole setup, Sherlock isn't actually in any trouble with the laptop issue.  He'll simply go through the pretense of being arrested.  But if Mycroft is in on the plan and that plan has backfired PLUS Sherlock now has been outplayed regarding the mind palace, he must take the only and terrible option of destroying Magnussen's brain and ending that Appledore vault once and for all.  

 

I think Sherlock is so over-confident about his abilities that he thought he would get out of the situation by his own brains, and his brains failed him, and then his emotions failed him and he solved the problem with violence.

 

Life is tempering him.

[Inge l-w]

Sherlock's brains will fail him when Hell freezes over, not that we don't have a parallel in ancient Germanic myths ^_^, but not in any kind of fiction, however badly scripted! Taking the easy way out and doing an Indiana Jones imitation is a responsibility resting squarely on Mr Moffat's shoulders, for which improbable ending he has been reaping BAFTA awards these past two years.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me! To think that I coerced the rest of my family and friends to vote for the series so that he could strut up there with his family for his brilliant idea of forcing his creation to shoot someone at point blanc range, and make the viewers like it on top of the pointless deed!

[Shadow Dweller]

Sherlock's brains will fail him when Hell freezes over, not that we don't have a parallel in ancient Germanic myths ^_^, but not in any kind of fiction, however badly scripted!

What a touching faith to Sherlock. Thank goodness BC is so convincing on playing the part of socially awkward & emotionally stunted that is the current incarnation of the famous sleuth. :D

[Inge l-w]

Dear Shadow Dweller, emotionally inept and socially unaware is standard for Sherlock in any form, he was created that way! But his reasoning fails him so little, that when it does, he is the first to acknowledge it in the ACD stories, pretty much the equivalent of "There's always something" in SiP.

[sfmpco]

When I say his brain failed him - it failed to deduce that Magnussen had a mind palace.

[Shadow Dweller]

@Inge: Not in the ACD version. I would say that the Victorian/Edwardian Sherlock is a well-adjusted adult for his time. BBC's Sherlock acknowledged that he feel fear in THoB and he seems bewildered that he's capable for it.

[J.P.]

Re: CAM and Mary: my feeling is that they have a whole "story" hidden in their past. "I wish your parents would live to see this" - this sentence might imply plenty of terrible possibilities.

 

Re: the Tweet - seriously, why should they care?
 

[Shadow Dweller]

Barometer of the fandom from certain angle, J.P.

[Arcadia]

I'm not condoning how he handled it, but was it premeditated?  Did he leave his parents house planning to kill Magnussen?  I just don't think he did. I really think he thought he could negotiate his way out, just like Mary likely thought.  And btw, it could very well be that Mary was willing to blackmail Magnussen... ie., "I am an assassin, and I will kill you at any time without warning, if you breathe a word of what you know to anyone."  

 

Sherlock couldn't pull the gun on Magnussen inside his house.  John would have talked him out of it.  Plus there were guards everywhere who would have seen it and come to Magnussen's immediate rescue.  So, negotiations have failed.  Sherlock is out-played.  Now, if Mycroft were truly in on the whole setup, Sherlock isn't actually in any trouble with the laptop issue.  He'll simply go through the pretense of being arrested.  But if Mycroft is in on the plan and that plan has backfired PLUS Sherlock now has been outplayed regarding the mind palace, he must take the only and terrible option of destroying Magnussen's brain and ending that Appledore vault once and for all.  

 

I think Sherlock is so over-confident about his abilities that he thought he would get out of the situation by his own brains, and his brains failed him, and then his emotions failed him and he solved the problem with violence.

 

Life is tempering him.

That's more or less how I read it as well ... as long as it's a given that Mary must be saved. ;) The more I think about it, the more I think that's why they made her pregnant; whether anyone thinks Mary is worth saving or not, it's hard to suggest that the child should be sacrificed.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Arcadia,

First, we have NO indication that the embryo is the good doctor's; there is at least David and the unknown person hiding behind Cath, who Mary seems to visit regularly.

Second, in such a plot-holed story, we never see Dr Watson even mention that he would be accompanying Mary to a sonogram or other pregnancy-related test, to the point that she may have been faking it all. Perhaps that is what we have all missed, to go back to one entirely untrustworthy creator's comment!

[sfmpco]

I seriously doubt it is as convoluted in the directions you suggest, but please, feel free to continue with your conspiracy theories.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

David tells Sherlock that he and Mary had broken up "ages ago," and by the time we meet Mary, she and John have already been dating for six months, so it seems unlikely that David is the father of her baby.

 

I don't believe there is any "Cath" (regardless of the BBC's subtitles, which have demonstrable errors).  What I heard when that scene in John's office was first released (with no subtitles) as a trailer was "All right, be careful -- see you later."

 

Also, John told Sherlock, "We've had a scan," which suggests (at least to me) that he was on the scene.  He seems like he'd be a conscientious father, so of course he'd want to have a look at the kid!

 

There are lots of other possibilities, of course, but as Sherlock might say, balance of probability....

 

[J.P.]

Inge, I don't think that a child of another father than John is less worth living. Plus: it would be really hard to fake a pregnancy to John, even if their relationship was suffering from her lies. Plus: John in the airport scene: "We've had a scan, we're pretty sure it's a girl."

 

Oops, crosposted with Carol

[Shadow Dweller]

Some fans proposed that the baby is Magnussen's.