Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sfmpco]

Only Donovan's statement didn't quite come true because so far as we know, Magnussen's killer will likely never be known to Scotland Yard.

 

The only true psychopath is Moriarty.  

[Inge l-w]

What's Mycroft there for if not to keep the events at Appledore from the prying eyes of the law secret? Although Mr Moffat's cryptic "missed it" statement may be referring to that sequence of events.

Moriarty is not a Joker rip-off, as such, he's more fun and scarier than the Joker all in one! Unfortunately, both Moriarity and Irene reflect facets of this Sherlock's character, so DI Lestrade's wish may never be fulfilled, of Sherlock becoming a good man as well as a great one.

Sorry, TOBY, and congratulations on being made a moderator, I got caught up on the whole convention frenzy, so I overlooked your question about Mary's baby. It is just possible that the usher was introduced in SoT for more than just light relief, as an example of what we may have missed, and Mary's visits to this mysterious Cath were never followed by even showing two lady friends sharing a quiet moment after a day's hard work, same as how Mary cultivated Janine, but more mysterious, as she meets Cath in the evening.

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

The show also made it a point to show that Magnussen's actions were depraved and inhuman. This neither excuses nor justifies Sherlock's actions, imo, but I find it a bit of a stretch to say that Sherlock was more evil than CAM. But that's just me, of course.

 

 

 

No, not just you.

 

I think HLV deleted scene showing magnussen's visit to hospital explains how despicable how his character is.

 

Note entirely, but it gives very good idea why Sherlock despises him.

 

Blackmailing can be much worse than murder.

[STCooper1]

Yes Sherlock hated him, but he hated the power he used over people's lives.  I think Sherlock did everything he could to resolve the situation with the Lord Smallwood letters in a peaceful manner, and then put himself on the line  by stealing Mycroft's laptop to use it as an exchange for info on Mary (and there are some in this forum who believe perhaps rightly so that Mycroft was in on it).  It was only when he had been outplayed and he saw that the blackmail was going to increase now especially over John and Mary that Sherlock made the decision to shoot Magnussen in the head and destroy that mind palace.  

 

Even though Sherlock asked John to bring his gun, I think that was just in case they ran into trouble.  If the exchange could have been truly made, would Sherlock have shot him?  No, I don't think so.  Because there would have been no mind palace to destroy.  However, I think as soon as the issue was revealed to be the mind palace, Sherlock began to rethink what he had to do to resolve the situation...

 

No, Mycroft wasn't in on it, or Sherlock would not have drugged him and tried to keep him out of it. As to the blackmail increasing, there is no proof that it would have since Magnussen had what he wanted over Mary, John, Sherlock, and Mycroft. He would probably have done nothing at all to anyone but Mycroft, provided there was something he could do for him. I agree with you that he probably just asked John to being the gun for protection or, maybe, to force Magnussen to surrender what he had on Mary should he go back on the deal and refuse to trade it. However, murdering Magnussen did not end the threat of his blackmail since he still had the hard copies somewhere else and would send for them if he needed them. This was confirmed in his reply to Watson after the mind palace display of "Well, sometimes I send out for something if I really need it, but mostly I just remember it all". In the end, the murder was a fruitless act.

[STCooper1]

 

 

The show also made it a point to show that Magnussen's actions were depraved and inhuman. This neither excuses nor justifies Sherlock's actions, imo, but I find it a bit of a stretch to say that Sherlock was more evil than CAM. But that's just me, of course.

 

 

 

Ruining people's reputations is nowhere near as bad as taking their lives. Magnussen's "depraved" actions ultimately didn't have the same permanence that Sherlock's act of murdering him did. Ruining people's reputations means nothing and can be maybe reversed, however, taking their lives can't

[STCooper1]

Somehow, my feeling of what STCooper is trying to say is that by killing Magnussen, Sherlock fulfilled Donovan's statement in Study in Pink "One day we will all be standing around a body and he will have put it there", but motive is another of those huge plotholes in one of my least favourite episodes in the series.

Mary revealed as a cold-blooded assassin, nearly a psychopath herself, John being uncomprehending in the face of his former best friend's actions and suffering, Sherlock admitting he has lost the Game by not thinking things through properly and resorting to violence to solve a problem, all this makes HLV less than an admirable piece of work, regardless of how many awards it has won.

 

Sherlock's resorting to violence didn't solve the problem as Magnussen's blackmail threat is still alive thanks to the hard copies being out there and his trust underlings knowing where there. For all we know, all the darkest secrets of everyone under Magnussen's thumb has been exposed.  Could be why nobody in the British government was cheerful that he was dead. Also, Mary is a complete psychopath and I've lost all respect for her, just as I have Sherlock for murdering Magnussen.

[STCooper1]

Only Donovan's statement didn't quite come true because so far as we know, Magnussen's killer will likely never be known to Scotland Yard.

 

The only true psychopath is Moriarty.  

Except Donovan's statement did come true, as then there were police standing around a body and Sherlock was the one that put it there. We'll doesn't strictly mean Scotland Yard as they aren't the only law enforcement and for all we know, maybe those police at Appledore were from part of Scotland Yard.

[STCooper1]

What's Mycroft there for if not to keep the events at Appledore from the prying eyes of the law secret? Although Mr Moffat's cryptic "missed it" statement may be referring to that sequence of events.

Moriarty is not a Joker rip-off, as such, he's more fun and scarier than the Joker all in one! Unfortunately, both Moriarity and Irene reflect facets of this Sherlock's character, so DI Lestrade's wish may never be fulfilled, of Sherlock becoming a good man as well as a great one.

Sorry, TOBY, and congratulations on being made a moderator, I got caught up on the whole convention frenzy, so I overlooked your question about Mary's baby. It is just possible that the usher was introduced in SoT for more than just light relief, as an example of what we may have missed, and Mary's visits to this mysterious Cath were never followed by even showing two lady friends sharing a quiet moment after a day's hard work, same as how Mary cultivated Janine, but more mysterious, as she meets Cath in the evening.

 

It was Mycroft's laptop that was stolen. He was probably there leading the police in retrieving it, as Sherlock planned for him to be. And yes, Moriarty as characterized in the show is a Joker rip-off. His madness, intellect, and resourcefulness easily rival the Joker, and his relationship with Holmes mirrored that of Joker's relationship with Batman. One of mutual respect, with Moriarty obsessed with Holmes creepily and always wanting to make his life a living Hell. Just like Joker and Batman.

[STCooper1]

 

 

The show also made it a point to show that Magnussen's actions were depraved and inhuman. This neither excuses nor justifies Sherlock's actions, imo, but I find it a bit of a stretch to say that Sherlock was more evil than CAM. But that's just me, of course.

 

 

 

No, not just you.

 

I think HLV deleted scene showing magnussen's visit to hospital explains how despicable how his character is.

 

Note entirely, but it gives very good idea why Sherlock despises him.

 

Blackmailing can be much worse than murder.

 

 

No it can't. Murder is always worse as then something un-replaceable has been taken.

[Arcadia]

Blackmailing can be much worse than murder.

Well, it certainly turned out that way for Lord Smallwood, didn't it? Blackmail was so awful that he murdered himself to avoid the consequences of it.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Arcadia, congratulations on being made a moderator, but "murdered himself" does not make sense according to Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary. Offed himself, committed suicide, possibly?

And what is worse than killing someone is ruining their reputation, which is what Moriarty did to Sherlock in TRF, so there are things out there worse than killing!

[Arcadia]

Thank you!

 

And I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek by saying "murdered himself", but yes, "offed himself" would've been more, um, accurate.

[T.o.b.y]

Ahhh, this episode. The discussion about it will never die down, I think, and it's just as heated as it was in the beginning. I have to respect Steven Moffat for writing something with so much power to move people.

 

I briefly considered just letting it be and not saying anything further, because I don't expect we'll actually get anywhere with this old discussion, but then if I did that, why come here at all? We don't need to get anywhere. Just chatting and happily disagreeing is fun. So:

 

    The fact that overall the murder was completely unnecessary as Magnussen wasn't a threat to anyone's life, just their reputation, which isn't worth killing over, made Sherlock the real villain of the situation as he did something to Magnussen even worse than he had ever done to those under his thumb. Holmes also redeemed the character of Donovan of all the negativity she'd been portrayed with in the show as he fulfilled her prophecy about him in the first episode and proved her completely right about him. Also, Magnussen wasn't pure evil, as he wasn't a murderer or psychopath like Mary is and like Sherlock became when he murdered Magnussen. Magnussen had no desire to see anyone die, as he was horrified when Mary shot Sherlock and put men by the bond-fire to get Watson out in case Sherlock didn't make it in time, so was better morally than Mary and Sherlock were at the end of it all.

 

When did we see Magnussen being horrified by Mary shooting Sherlock? All I caught was surprise - totally understandable, since he probably assumed Mary and Sherlock were allies. Actually, he suggested Mary shoot him, though: "What do you do now? Kill both of us?" Those aren't exactly the words of a man who is horrified by the idea of homicide...

 

As for "I had people standing by (...) I am not a murderer", Magnussen could of course be lying there. Then on the other hand, if he had really let John burn to death, then his whole chain of control would have broken down and he'd have lost Sherlock's biggest pressure point, so he was probably telling the truth. Still, I do think Magnussen was a threat to people's lives. He said he knew people who could bring John's whole life down. It's not improbable that if they were family / friends of Mary's victims, they wouldn't stop at killing her, her baby and possibly also her husband, i.e. John. To me, it is reasonable to think that Sherlock considered Magnussen a threat to Mary's life and her family's, albeit an indirect one.

 

This indirectness reminds me of something Moriarty said at the pool: "Someone else is holding the rifle". Neither Moriarty or Magnussen kill with their own hands. Why should they? But they manipulate / bribe / bully other people into killing / injuring people, and that, I think is much worse. I respect Sherlock for what he did with Magnussen. He looked him straight in the eye, pulled the trigger and then assumed full responsibility for his actions. I have only contempt for people who farm killing out to subordinates and then claim their hands are clean. To my mind, they are doubly guilty: Guilty of the committed murder and guilty of producing a murderer.

 

 Even if Magnussen had revealed that information, Smallwood's suicide wasn't his fault as he killed himself because he couldn't stand the truth being told about him. He was a wuss. Technically, all Magnussen did was his job. The same can't be said for Holmes when he murdered Magnussen on top of committing high treason. He wasn't doing his job and upholding the law, he was breaking it and further proving his hated enemy the better man.

 

Does anybody really know what Sherlock's job is? The conversation between Mycroft and his colleague sounded a bit as if to their minds, Sherlock did exactly what he as supposed to: "This country needs (...) a scalpel, wielded with precision and without remorse". I think Mycroft uses Sherlock to do his dirty work, stuff he'd never ever get away with and can't even openly approve but that needs be done anyway. Another reason for me not to be overly fond of the big brother... I'm just not very enthusiastic about people who delegate bad deeds, I think. Somehow, it seems even worse to me than doing reprehensible things yourself.

 

As for Magnussen, if his job description says "blackmail people", then yup, he was doing it all right, but then I also think he should be fired.

If you mean it is the media's job to expose politician's shady pasts, okay, but then Magnussen should have revealed the truth about Lord Smallwood as soon as he knew it, and he should have done it independently of whether his wife was cooperative or not. The goal would have been to protect other minors, not to put pressure on his wife.

 

Sherlock fulfilled Donovan's statement in Study in Pink "One day we will all be standing around a body and he will have put it there"

 

Yes! I love that! I know it wasn't really foreshadowing since the script for His Last Vow wasn't written yet, but still, I love how it works out that way.

 

Moriarty is not a Joker rip-off, as such, he's more fun and scarier than the Joker all in one!

 

I only saw Heath Ledger's version of The Joker, and I can't say Moriarty particularly reminds me of that... For some strange reason, I felt more sympathy for The Joker. I kind of liked him, in a weird, sick way. But then, I liked nobody else in that film and I couldn't care less about Batman. No, I take that back. I really liked the guy on the boat who threw away the trigger and refused to play the Joker's game. That guy was cool. They should have made a movie about him. He was the real hero.

 

However, murdering Magnussen did not end the threat of his blackmail since he still had the hard copies somewhere else and would send for them if he needed them. This was confirmed in his reply to Watson after the mind palace display of "Well, sometimes I send out for something if I really need it, but mostly I just remember it all". In the end, the murder was a fruitless act.

 

I kind of agree with you that the danger to Mary can't be entirely past just because Magnussen is dead. After all, the people she ran from must still be somewhere out there. Well, at least Magnussen won't be able to help them find her now. I am sure Sherlock bought her time.

 

Ruining people's reputations means nothing

 

Actually, it can mean quite a lot. For Lord Smallwood, the reveal could very well mean the end of his career. He might even have had to go to prison. Loss of a reputation can be loss of income, family, freedom, peace of mind and your life as you knew it. I sincerely wish no power-hungry or simply malicious person ever sets about ruining yours. It is a harrowing experience. I've seen it happen up close, not just in fiction, to a person who was truly blameless, much more so than Smallwood, and I can tell you it means an awful, horrible lot and can and does drive people to commit suicide.

 

 

The word "respect" has been mentioned around here a lot recently. Okay, I respect Sherlock for doing his own dirty work, assuming responsibility and not expecting anybody to applaud him for it ("I am not a hero"). I respect Steven Moffat for writing such a powerful script and the Sherlock team for turning it into such a powerful episode. I respect all of you who are appalled that the title character killed someone, and that in the age of (super) hero franchises where the killing of villains is routinely portrayed as totally normal and laudable. It shows that the world isn't so very bad yet, and neither are the people in it.

 

everyone?

[Arcadia]

The word "respect" has been mentioned around here a lot recently. Okay, I respect Sherlock for doing his own dirty work, assuming responsibility and not expecting anybody to applaud him for it ("I am not a hero"). I respect Steven Moffat for writing such a powerful script and the Sherlock team for turning it into such a powerful episode. I respect all of you who are appalled that the title character killed someone, and that in the age of (super) hero franchises where the killing of villains is routinely portrayed as totally normal and laudable. It shows that the world isn't so very bad yet, and neither are the people in it.

 

everyone?

 

Works for me!

[Van Buren Supernova]

No it can't. Murder is always worse as then something un-replaceable has been taken.

 

 

Blackmailing can be much worse than murder.

 

Well, it certainly turned out that way for Lord Smallwood, didn't it? Blackmail was so awful that he murdered himself to avoid the consequences of it.

And what is worse than killing someone is ruining their reputation, which is what Moriarty did to Sherlock in TRF, so there are things out there worse than killing!

Blackmailing is worse than murder when it reaches certain level; it could drive people into suicide, depression, desperate measure, crime.

It's mental abuse, destroying relationship, reputation and character assasination.

It 'owes' people the way it never should.

 

If I was in Lady Smallwood or Sherlock position,

If it ever happens to my loved ones,

I think it would probably take me everything I have to avoid shooting Magnussen in the face, at least he won't be dragged into long suffering like what he does to others.

 

Pulling the weed from the garden or get rid of cancer from the body.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Inge l-w

 

Posted Today, 01:16 PM

Dear Arcadia, congratulations on being made a moderator, but "murdered himself" does not make sense according to Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary. Offed himself, committed suicide, possibly?

 

 

 

 

What about The Aluminium Crutch?

Can it fits into 'murdered himself?'

I vote yes! 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Arcadia
fixed quote box

[Van Buren Supernova]

Ahhh, this episode. The discussion about it will never die down, I think, and it's just as heated as it was in the beginning. I have to respect Steven Moffat for writing something with so much power to move people.

 

I briefly considered just letting it be and not saying anything further, because I don't expect we'll actually get anywhere with this old discussion, but then if I did that, why come here at all? We don't need to get anywhere. Just chatting and happily disagreeing is fun. So:

 

When did we see Magnussen being horrified by Mary shooting Sherlock? All I caught was surprise - totally understandable, since he probably assumed Mary and Sherlock were allies. Actually, he suggested Mary shoot him, though: "What do you do now? Kill both of us?" Those aren't exactly the words of a man who is horrified by the idea of homicide...

 

As for "I had people standing by (...) I am not a murderer", Magnussen could of course be lying there. Then on the other hand, if he had really let John burn to death, then his whole chain of control would have broken down and he'd have lost Sherlock's biggest pressure point, so he was probably telling the truth. Still, I do think Magnussen was a threat to people's lives. He said he knew people who could bring John's whole life down. It's not improbable that if they were family / friends of Mary's victims, they wouldn't stop at killing her, her baby and possibly also her husband, i.e. John. To me, it is reasonable to think that Sherlock considered Magnussen a threat to Mary's life and her family's, albeit an indirect one.

 

This indirectness reminds me of something Moriarty said at the pool: "Someone else is holding the rifle". Neither Moriarty or Magnussen kill with their own hands. Why should they? But they manipulate / bribe / bully other people into killing / injuring people, and that, I think is much worse. I respect Sherlock for what he did with Magnussen. He looked him straight in the eye, pulled the trigger and then assumed full responsibility for his actions. I have only contempt for people who farm killing out to subordinates and then claim their hands are clean. To my mind, they are doubly guilty: Guilty of the committed murder and guilty of producing a murderer.

 

Does anybody really know what Sherlock's job is? The conversation between Mycroft and his colleague sounded a bit as if to their minds, Sherlock did exactly what he as supposed to: "This country needs (...) a scalpel, wielded with precision and without remorse". I think Mycroft uses Sherlock to do his dirty work, stuff he'd never ever get away with and can't even openly approve but that needs be done anyway. Another reason for me not to be overly fond of the big brother... I'm just not very enthusiastic about people who delegate bad deeds, I think. Somehow, it seems even worse to me than doing reprehensible things yourself.

 

 

 

As for Magnussen, if his job description says "blackmail people", then yup, he was doing it all right, but then I also think he should be fired.

If you mean it is the media's job to expose politician's shady pasts, okay, but then Magnussen should have revealed the truth about Lord Smallwood as soon as he knew it, and he should have done it independently of whether his wife was cooperative or not. The goal would have been to protect other minors, not to put pressure on his wife.

 

 

I kind of agree with you that the danger to Mary can't be entirely past just because Magnussen is dead. After all, the people she ran from must still be somewhere out there. Well, at least Magnussen won't be able to help them find her now. I am sure Sherlock bought her time.

 

 

 

Actually, it can mean quite a lot. For Lord Smallwood, the reveal could very well mean the end of his career. He might even have had to go to prison. Loss of a reputation can be loss of income, family, freedom, peace of mind and your life as you knew it. I sincerely wish no power-hungry or simply malicious person ever sets about ruining yours. It is a harrowing experience. I've seen it happen up close, not just in fiction, to a person who was truly blameless, much more so than Smallwood, and I can tell you it means an awful, horrible lot and can and does drive people to commit suicide.

 

 

The word "respect" has been mentioned around here a lot recently. Okay, I respect Sherlock for doing his own dirty work, assuming responsibility and not expecting anybody to applaud him for it ("I am not a hero"). I respect Steven Moffat for writing such a powerful script and the Sherlock team for turning it into such a powerful episode. I respect all of you who are appalled that the title character killed someone, and that in the age of (super) hero franchises where the killing of villains is routinely portrayed as totally normal and laudable. It shows that the world isn't so very bad yet, and neither are the people in it.

 

everyone?

 

Not 100% agree with you (close)

But it's good take and very well put.

[Arcadia]

 

Inge l-w

Dear Arcadia, congratulations on being made a moderator, but "murdered himself" does not make sense according to Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary. Offed himself, committed suicide, possibly?

What about The Aluminium Crutch?

Can it fits into 'murdered himself?'

I vote yes! 

 

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the story...

[STCooper1]

Dear Arcadia, congratulations on being made a moderator, but "murdered himself" does not make sense according to Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary. Offed himself, committed suicide, possibly?

And what is worse than killing someone is ruining their reputation, which is what Moriarty did to Sherlock in TRF, so there are things out there worse than killing!

 

Actually, thats false. Ruining someone's reputation is not worse than killing them as they cans till live out the rest of their life without it. Taking their life is even worse than killing them as then something truly irreplaceable is lost.

 

[mod soapbox mode on]

Dear STCooper1, I appreciate that you got strong opinions on this subject (Vow can sure be viewed as successful in that regard).

 

I would, however, ask you not to describe a fellow board member's opinion as "false". Please reserve such terms for verifiable facts. You can disagree with Inge's opinion, and we do value a lively discussion, but what she says is no more false than what you say is true. These are opinions, not facts.

[/steps off soapbox]

Edited May 5, 2015 by Carol the Dabbler

[STCooper1]

Ahhh, this episode. The discussion about it will never die down, I think, and it's just as heated as it was in the beginning. I have to respect Steven Moffat for writing something with so much power to move people.

 

I briefly considered just letting it be and not saying anything further, because I don't expect we'll actually get anywhere with this old discussion, but then if I did that, why come here at all? We don't need to get anywhere. Just chatting and happily disagreeing is fun. So:

 

    The fact that overall the murder was completely unnecessary as Magnussen wasn't a threat to anyone's life, just their reputation, which isn't worth killing over, made Sherlock the real villain of the situation as he did something to Magnussen even worse than he had ever done to those under his thumb. Holmes also redeemed the character of Donovan of all the negativity she'd been portrayed with in the show as he fulfilled her prophecy about him in the first episode and proved her completely right about him. Also, Magnussen wasn't pure evil, as he wasn't a murderer or psychopath like Mary is and like Sherlock became when he murdered Magnussen. Magnussen had no desire to see anyone die, as he was horrified when Mary shot Sherlock and put men by the bond-fire to get Watson out in case Sherlock didn't make it in time, so was better morally than Mary and Sherlock were at the end of it all.

 

When did we see Magnussen being horrified by Mary shooting Sherlock? All I caught was surprise - totally understandable, since he probably assumed Mary and Sherlock were allies. Actually, he suggested Mary shoot him, though: "What do you do now? Kill both of us?" Those aren't exactly the words of a man who is horrified by the idea of homicide...

 

As for "I had people standing by (...) I am not a murderer", Magnussen could of course be lying there. Then on the other hand, if he had really let John burn to death, then his whole chain of control would have broken down and he'd have lost Sherlock's biggest pressure point, so he was probably telling the truth. Still, I do think Magnussen was a threat to people's lives. He said he knew people who could bring John's whole life down. It's not improbable that if they were family / friends of Mary's victims, they wouldn't stop at killing her, her baby and possibly also her husband, i.e. John. To me, it is reasonable to think that Sherlock considered Magnussen a threat to Mary's life and her family's, albeit an indirect one.

 

This indirectness reminds me of something Moriarty said at the pool: "Someone else is holding the rifle". Neither Moriarty or Magnussen kill with their own hands. Why should they? But they manipulate / bribe / bully other people into killing / injuring people, and that, I think is much worse. I respect Sherlock for what he did with Magnussen. He looked him straight in the eye, pulled the trigger and then assumed full responsibility for his actions. I have only contempt for people who farm killing out to subordinates and then claim their hands are clean. To my mind, they are doubly guilty: Guilty of the committed murder and guilty of producing a murderer.

 

 Even if Magnussen had revealed that information, Smallwood's suicide wasn't his fault as he killed himself because he couldn't stand the truth being told about him. He was a wuss. Technically, all Magnussen did was his job. The same can't be said for Holmes when he murdered Magnussen on top of committing high treason. He wasn't doing his job and upholding the law, he was breaking it and further proving his hated enemy the better man.

 

Does anybody really know what Sherlock's job is? The conversation between Mycroft and his colleague sounded a bit as if to their minds, Sherlock did exactly what he as supposed to: "This country needs (...) a scalpel, wielded with precision and without remorse". I think Mycroft uses Sherlock to do his dirty work, stuff he'd never ever get away with and can't even openly approve but that needs be done anyway. Another reason for me not to be overly fond of the big brother... I'm just not very enthusiastic about people who delegate bad deeds, I think. Somehow, it seems even worse to me than doing reprehensible things yourself.

 

As for Magnussen, if his job description says "blackmail people", then yup, he was doing it all right, but then I also think he should be fired.

If you mean it is the media's job to expose politician's shady pasts, okay, but then Magnussen should have revealed the truth about Lord Smallwood as soon as he knew it, and he should have done it independently of whether his wife was cooperative or not. The goal would have been to protect other minors, not to put pressure on his wife.

 

Sherlock fulfilled Donovan's statement in Study in Pink "One day we will all be standing around a body and he will have put it there"

 

Yes! I love that! I know it wasn't really foreshadowing since the script for His Last Vow wasn't written yet, but still, I love how it works out that way.

 

Moriarty is not a Joker rip-off, as such, he's more fun and scarier than the Joker all in one!

 

I only saw Heath Ledger's version of The Joker, and I can't say Moriarty particularly reminds me of that... For some strange reason, I felt more sympathy for The Joker. I kind of liked him, in a weird, sick way. But then, I liked nobody else in that film and I couldn't care less about Batman. No, I take that back. I really liked the guy on the boat who threw away the trigger and refused to play the Joker's game. That guy was cool. They should have made a movie about him. He was the real hero.

 

However, murdering Magnussen did not end the threat of his blackmail since he still had the hard copies somewhere else and would send for them if he needed them. This was confirmed in his reply to Watson after the mind palace display of "Well, sometimes I send out for something if I really need it, but mostly I just remember it all". In the end, the murder was a fruitless act.

 

I kind of agree with you that the danger to Mary can't be entirely past just because Magnussen is dead. After all, the people she ran from must still be somewhere out there. Well, at least Magnussen won't be able to help them find her now. I am sure Sherlock bought her time.

 

Ruining people's reputations means nothing

 

Actually, it can mean quite a lot. For Lord Smallwood, the reveal could very well mean the end of his career. He might even have had to go to prison. Loss of a reputation can be loss of income, family, freedom, peace of mind and your life as you knew it. I sincerely wish no power-hungry or simply malicious person ever sets about ruining yours. It is a harrowing experience. I've seen it happen up close, not just in fiction, to a person who was truly blameless, much more so than Smallwood, and I can tell you it means an awful, horrible lot and can and does drive people to commit suicide.

 

 

The word "respect" has been mentioned around here a lot recently. Okay, I respect Sherlock for doing his own dirty work, assuming responsibility and not expecting anybody to applaud him for it ("I am not a hero"). I respect Steven Moffat for writing such a powerful script and the Sherlock team for turning it into such a powerful episode. I respect all of you who are appalled that the title character killed someone, and that in the age of (super) hero franchises where the killing of villains is routinely portrayed as totally normal and laudable. It shows that the world isn't so very bad yet, and neither are the people in it.

 

everyone?

 

You missed that Magnussen also had footage of them pulling John from the fire, and therefore his men were the ones that provided it. They were there. What common citizen is going to keep filming the fire when John started screaming?

[STCooper1]

 

No it can't. Murder is always worse as then something un-replaceable has been taken.

 

 

Blackmailing can be much worse than murder.

Well, it certainly turned out that way for Lord Smallwood, didn't it? Blackmail was so awful that he murdered himself to avoid the consequences of it.

And what is worse than killing someone is ruining their reputation, which is what Moriarty did to Sherlock in TRF, so there are things out there worse than killing!

Blackmailing is worse than murder when it reaches certain level; it could drive people into suicide, depression, desperate measure, crime.

It's mental abuse, destroying relationship, reputation and character assasination.

It 'owes' people the way it never should.

 

If I was in Lady Smallwood or Sherlock position,

If it ever happens to my loved ones,

I think it would probably take me everything I have to avoid shooting Magnussen in the face, at least he won't be dragged into long suffering like what he does to others.

 

Pulling the weed from the garden or get rid of cancer from the body.

 

 

In the end, people who kill themselves because a blackmailer exposed the truth about their dark secrets are wimps who couldn't take the truth. Why'd they ever do those things if they could take responsibility for their actions. What Magnussen did was bad(technically since he makes no threats or demands that we're shown, what he did isn't blackmail), but as he works in news its not technically wrong for him to expose them. Thats his job, he just tries to use knowledge selfishly, which is also wrong.

[STCooper1]

I wanted to address everyone's hatred of Mary. I was myself quite surprised at how much everyone dislikes Mary now. I don't think she's quite so horrible or conniving as everyone seems to think. I'll admit the "surgery" angle was a little hard for me to swallow but I figure is Sherlock said it I can take it. Recall the tunnel scene, Sherlock says 5 years back she became Mary but she couldn't of been involved with John for more than 2 years because she was there for him when Sherlock "died", Conclusion, she decided to leave that life at least 2 probably 3 years before she me John. Also she was former CIA (refer to the vault scene) so undoubtedly she started the path to assassin with at least a little persuasion. Yes she did free lance, not so good, but she did decide to leave it. Possibly she couldn't stomach it anymore. She does love John and that's why she was trying to kill Magnussen because she can't bare the thought of losing him. Her tracking Sherlock alone with a gun, meh, I personally don't see it as planning to kill him but I guess I'm alone on that. Also it took John 1 or 2 (can't remember) months to forgive her. Just because it was the next scene doesn't mean it was that quickly. Mary made a reference to not talking which I took to mean not talking at all not just on "the subject". 

 

Anyhow just my thoughts. There are other points I can agree with the majority on and there are somethings I wouldn't mind being different but although Mary has totally changed for me I don't totally loathe her like most people on here seem to now.

 

Shes still a psychopath and probably did intend to kill Sherlock if he didn't agree to keep quite about what he knew. Openly admitting she do ANYTHING to keep that from happening. Overall, I consider none of her justified or necessary. Not planning to murder Magnussen, not shooting Sherlock. I hate her now.

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

 

Inge l-w

Dear Arcadia, congratulations on being made a moderator, but "murdered himself" does not make sense according to Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary. Offed himself, committed suicide, possibly?

What about The Aluminium Crutch?

Can it fits into 'murdered himself?'

I vote yes!

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the story...

Not to worry, if you are interested to know, it's a very quick catch up.

Not a book reader myself (yet), until I can free some more time from work and life and rewatching Sherlock and all the necessary things needed to keep me alive and reading and posting on this forum.

 

It's from John Watson's blog.

http://www.johnwatsonblog.co.uk/blog/02september

[STCooper1]

 

Mary could have had another choice: kill Magnussen and ask Sherlock not to tell John. This 'surgical shot' is BS in my opinion, Sherlock almost died. I wouldn't forgive that.

 

 

The problem with killing Magnussen was that Janine wasn't dead and Mary wasn't willing to kill her, too. We don't even know if the security guard was dead, Sherlock just said "who cares" if he's alive or not. Janine had let Sherlock into the flat and would certainly tell the police that he was in the flat at the time the murder happened (while it was highly unlikely that Magnuessen would have contacted the police for the stolen letters - that didn't even exist, I suppose - they surely would have been contacted after he was murdered). And I have no doubt the security footage of the entrance of the building would have shown the police that John had been with Sherlock. So shooting CAM would have led to John becoming a murder suspect - along with Sherlock. Certainly not what Mary wanted to happen. 

 

I'm not defending Mary for shooting Sherlock, that was a bad choice. But shooting Magnussen wasn't an option any more in that situation. 

 

 

You got one thing wrong; the letters do exist and are in a secret place only Magnussen and trusted underlings to him know about.

[STCooper1]

 

Autistics are sociopathic after all by their very nature.

 

Actually, this is completely false, as I have Aspergers and am therefore an autistic, yet I am not sociopathic by nature. Don't make assumptions, as this appears to be.