Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Elementary]

I do agree that CAM was a very, very bad person, and I personally don't have a huge problem with him being dead.  The heroes always take out the villians.  That's what they do in fiction.  It was, however, the way Sherlock did it... just point blank shot him for no other real reasons than he'd been out-played and out-thought and was now owned by CAM as well.  Even if he hadn't shot CAM, his punishment for trying to trade government secrets would have been just as severe.  It never would have solved a host of problems that CAM would have created not the least of which is the ownership deal.  So... 

 

I see it as CAM being out-played by Sherlock! CAM's biggest weakness was that he did not believe that Sherlock would pull the trigger on him. He even said "They pose no threat" as they were being approached, believing that he had won and his mind-palace would survive to do the terrible deeds. If he had been smart about it, he would have made sure John handed over all his weapons. 

 

Hmm. I like the idea of Mycroft putting Moriarty's face all over England. He never really wanted to send his brother on that mission.

 

 

Haha, yes! I have friends who have that theory. However, what would Mycroft do to put some action behind that face? Or was just flashing that and having Sherlock solve other cases enough to get him back? 

 

But yes Mycroft is such a sweet big bro. 

[jesskayding]

I've always said I love that part when CAM shouts out " They're harmless!"... Weeeelllll!

[Carol the Dabbler]

... yes, John could be renting the house, but Mycroft would have had to give him Sherlock's money for that. He was having issues paying for the bills in TBB after all, and GPs are not the best paid doctors out there. Not even when working full time. Seems like quite a pay rise when he suddenly can rent an entire house in the suburbs.

John was having trouble paying his bills at the beginning of "Banker" because he wasn't working then (other than with Sherlock), and that's why he later got the temp job at Sarah's clinic. In S3, he appears to have a permanent full-time job, so he presumably has a real income. I have no idea how much it would cost to rent that house, but it's in the suburbs, so presumably less per square foot than a flat in Central London, at any rate.

 

The car is actually referred to as "Mary's" if I am not mistaken. She says "my car" at some point. And John can't drive, can he? Bit confused. I was rather certain he couldn't, but your question made me realize that I do not specifically remember why I thought so... At least we never saw him drive. And even when he headed out in the beginning of HLV, he walked straight towards the passenger seat. No intention whatsoever to take the driver's seat

It's Martin Freeman who doesn't know how to drive (which is why John hasn't generally been seen behind the wheel). Did he head for the passenger side? I had trouble getting my head straight there, but thought he was planning to drive -- after all, he told Mary she couldn't come. Don't recall her saying "my car," but a lot of people call joint possessions "mine" -- so unless she said that to John, she may not have meant it literally.

 

 

If he had been smart about it, he would have made sure John handed over all his weapons.

 

You know, I've never understand that. CAM had them searched in their own living room. But even though they had found a couple of weapon-like items on John that time, he didn't have them searched again when they arrived at Appledore.

[jesskayding]

And the plot weakens...

[Arcadia]

 

The car is actually referred to as "Mary's" if I am not mistaken. She says "my car" at some point. And John can't drive, can he? Bit confused. I was rather certain he couldn't, but your question made me realize that I do not specifically remember why I thought so... At least we never saw him drive. And even when he headed out in the beginning of HLV, he walked straight towards the passenger seat. No intention whatsoever to take the driver's seat

It's Martin Freeman who doesn't know how to drive (which is why John hasn't generally been seen behind the wheel). Did he head for the passenger side? I had trouble getting my head straight there, but thought he was planning to drive -- after all, he told Mary she couldn't come. Don't recall her saying "my car," but a lot of people call joint possessions "mine" -- so unless she said that to John, she may not have meant it literally.

 

John drove to the drug den. Mary drove to Bart's. I can't find any mention of the car at all, let alone who owns it; it just materialized out of the same thin air Sherlock gets his money from, apparently.

 

Carol, good catch on their home in HLV being the same place John was at during Many Happy Returns. Sharp eyes! I remember thinking after TEH aired that it was probably supposed to be Mary at the door, dropping by for a visit.

[jesskayding]

That makes since, especially if John couldn't bring himself to sleep @ the Bakerstreet address. I didn't see Happy Returns as showing him living as a single man necessarily, just didn't show us Mary yet. What got me,was he seemed to choose the same kind of layout. Look @ the windows & where the main couch & wall paper are located. Just a lot lighter in feel.

 

 

That Sherlock! He could have contacted him within the 1st 3 months of his death.

 

But Marc talks about in the canon, Sherlock showed up out of the blue after being dead for 10 years & Dr. Watson was just pleased to be with his friend again, so it fits. I love how they made Johns resposes angry & appalled. I was feeling that way as soon as he walked into that restaurant, I was like I would kick his butt. So I was thrilled John responded the way I would have.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Under the laws of both the US and Britain it is considered felony murder to force someone to commit suicide. We have clear knowledge of one, Lord Smallwood. Mycroft implied that there had been others. So absolutely CAM was a murderer.

[T.o.b.y]

Under the laws of both the US and Britain it is considered felony murder to force someone to commit suicide. We have clear knowledge of one, Lord Smallwood. Mycroft implied that there had been others. So absolutely CAM was a murderer.

 

I agree. And somehow, I think it is even worse to goad someone into taking his own life while you sit back and not get your own hands dirty, than to kill them yourself.

 

[Zain]

 

John drove to the drug den. Mary drove to Bart's. I can't find any mention of the car at all, let alone who owns it; it just materialized out of the same thin air Sherlock gets his money from, apparently.

 

 

 

 

And you are completely right. I cannot believe I fell prey to cultural misperception. Of course, in England, everything but clocks runs the other way.... 

[Arcadia]

Even time is a little wonky in Greenwich!

[Arcadia]

 

Under the laws of both the US and Britain it is considered felony murder to force someone to commit suicide. We have clear knowledge of one, Lord Smallwood. Mycroft implied that there had been others. So absolutely CAM was a murderer.

I agree. And somehow, I think it is even worse to goad someone into taking his own life while you sit back and not get your own hands dirty, than to kill them yourself.

 

I don't think that means quite what you want it to mean. Jeff the Murdering Cabbie forced people to commit suicide, at gunpoint; either they took the pill, or they got shot. CAM "merely" threatened to reveal Lord Smallwood's secrets, thereby humiliating him. But Lord Smallwood could have chosen to fight back in the press, or admitted he was guilty and taken his punishment, or just weathered the storm ala Bill Clinton. Suicide wasn't his only option.

 

I agree CAM is at least partly responsible for Lord Smallwood's death in the ethical sense. But I doubt if there's a court in the world that would have convicted him of murder.

 

And even if CAM had been found guilty of murder, Sherlock still would be a murderer for killing him. Is the world a better place now that CAM's been removed from it? Yes. But is Sherlock a better man for choosing that method of removal? I have to say no, and I'm hoping S4 will acknowledge that. Otherwise they are condoning vigilante justice.

 

 

How cone Sherlock gets so much flack for shooting CAM, A straight up terrorist in my mind, but everyone seems so quick to forgive Mary for shooting the Heroe of the story, because Sherlock forgave her, so why shouldn't we, right.

 

Well the writers, & the British government have decided to forgive Sherlock, so why shouldn't we? I just don't understand the controversy over this.

What I'm not seeming to get why Sherlock is not to be forgiven for one bad decision in the defense of others and yet Magnuseen can cause all kind of murder and mayhem, blackmail and enslavement....as he said to Lady Smallwood: This isn't blackmail....it's ownership. And yet is to be regarded as an innocent victim? I'm not seeing it.

 

Of course murder is wrong....but if the likes of Mycroft and M16 or the CIA or who ever can protect Magnussen from prosecution, then there is no reason why someone couldn't do the same for Sherlock...

Mmmm.

 

I don't want to see Sherlock punished; I want to see him repent. What the legal system does or doesn't do is irrelevant to me; I'm concerned about his psyche. “[Killing] costs a lot more than your life...It costs everything you are.” -- Suzanne Collins, Mockingjay.

 

Forgiveness? Absolutely, big fan. Mary's victim forgives her, therefore I am content. Sherlock's victim ... is himself, imo. When he forgives himself, I'll know it's okay if I do too.

[Zain]

 

 

Even time is a little wonky in Greenwich!

 

 

 

Yeah, and let's not get started on the calender date until the mid 18th century It's charming, in a way. And I thought it was hilarious in school when I first heard about it. Poor merchants.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think Sherlock did repent, I think he regretted his actions mightily. But at the time he saw no other options. He did what he did and he can't take it back....but I believe that if he could have done something differently he would have. Violence just isn't his way.

 

 According to the laws that I read on line....yes....if you threaten a person it doesn't matter what you say or how you say it if whether it is merely  bullying, threatening that person or his/her family....if that person feels that there is no other out but suicide then you are guilty of a felony crime...namely murder. Each count carries a minimum sentence of 25 years to life.

 

There are kids in the US in jail right now charged with online bullying that caused an other young girl to commit suicide. Because they are in their early teens it has yet to be decided how this will all play out in court. But the system here is not taking these incidents lightly. To much of it has happened in the recent years.

[jesskayding]

Exactly Bakerstreet! Sherlock is quite intelligent that entire time the eyes is going back & forth in his hard drive... Trying to see all of his options. There was only one. That entire time Magnussen is humiliating his friend... Flicking his face... He's trying to figure a way out. Then he confirms that the only way to destroy the Appledor files was to destroy them.

 

I'm sure he will be more thorough and not assume or guess @ things when dealing with something as dangerous as CAM. So he doesn't completely back himself in a corner again.

[Arcadia]

 

I think Sherlock did repent, I think he regretted his actions mightily. But at the time he saw no other options. He did what he did and he can't take it back....but I believe that if he could have done something differently he would have. Violence just isn't his way.

 

According to the laws that I read on line....yes....if you threaten a person it doesn't matter what you say or how you say it if whether it is merely bullying, threatening that person or his/her family....if that person feels that there is no other out but suicide then you are guilty of a felony crime...namely murder. Each count carries a minimum sentence of 25 years to life.

So, does that mean you think Lord Smallwood had no other choice but to kill himself?

 

Regret is not repentance. Sure he feels regret; he's thrown away his life (he thinks.) But would he do it again? When the answer is no, that's repentance.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think we'll ever see repentance because Moffat's already stated that he doesn't think Sherlock felt the least bit remorse. Sigh. I want to love Sherlock but they're sure making it tough for me w/o compromising my own principles..... Good thing it's just fiction! That's what I have to retreat to, but that sort of puts me outside the story; not as much fun. Oh well, I still love the show.

[Arcadia]

I'm sure he will be more thorough and not assume or guess @ things when dealing with something as dangerous as CAM. So he doesn't completely back himself in a corner again.

So maybe he will have learned a little humility from this? That would be a step in the right direction. It would help to ease MY quivering spirit, at least.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Even Lady Smallwood feels that Sherlock should have no regrets...but I can't help but think that he does. He's not a killer. He likes to work within the law.

 

It doesn't matter about logical cool minded choices....what does matter to the law is that he was coerced knowingly and willfully to an act of desperation and it was known by people like Mycroft that it was what CAM was capable of, doing this very thing and had done it a number of times.

[jesskayding]

I don't think he should feel remorse. Afterall he wasn't a very good journalist.

 

I think he should be smarter next time, and feel embarrassed that he's lacking in maturity. When he becomes more mature, he even needs to listen to Mycroft more too. Because Mycroft has an understanding of human nature, that Sherlock does not. If he does these things both he & John could

Set themselves up to deal with villains in a more diplomatic way.

 

Now keep in mind that means no more action, no physical interaction whatsoever with villains. I'm getting depressed the more & more I type, because I realize the introduction of less violence & danger would change the entire tone of my favorite show.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I feel the opposite I think he should listen to Mycroft less. Holmes the elder is in bed with way to many black ops types. (Not to be taken literally)  I was so happy when he forced Mycroft to shut up during the wedding reception and turned to John instead. Sherlock needs to listen to John and Lestrade more, at least that is my point of view.

[jesskayding]

Well I meant @ times like when Sherlock's comes back from the dead. Mycroft was concerned that he hadn't yet given John a heads up to prepare him, but Sherlock assumes he'd be excepted. Nope, he got himself beat up 3 times.

 

Another time he told him that Irene Adler was no longer his concern, he ruined a rouse to fool the terrorists.

 

He warned him about CAM.

 

So it would be good if he didn't see his brother as an adversary.

[Arcadia]

Even Lady Smallwood feels that Sherlock should have no regrets...

I missed that. How do you mean?

[Elementary]

After reading all of your guys' posts I am unsure of what to really think of Sherlock killing CAM. As I have already said, it "seemed" like he had no alternative, but why did the directors set it up that way? In canon, it was another character (a lady actually) who shoots him, not Sherlock. And actually, Sherlock shoots Moriarty in canon, in his only act of deliberate killing. So the canon Sherlock does commit one crime against the final villain - and the producers did this for CAM. The question is, how will this moral dilemma affect the future episodes? And why did they chose Sherlocks (hopefully) one act of violence be for CAM and not Moriarty? 

[Arcadia]

I don't think he should feel remorse. Afterall he wasn't a very good journalist.

He wasn't any kind of journalist, he was the CEO (I assume) of a media empire. A business man, and obviously a VERY successful one. Which might be reason enuff to wish him dead right there, but that's another matter...

 

Now keep in mind that means no more action, no physical interaction whatsoever with villains. I'm getting depressed the more & more I type, because I realize the introduction of less violence & danger would change the entire tone of my favorite show.

I don't know, we managed to get thru 8 previous episodes without Sherlock shooting anyone in the head at point blank range. I think there's still a little room left for action if he never holds a gun again. He'll have to rely on his brain instead, which I find far more exciting. (I know, I know, it's all about MEEEEEE...)

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It comes from "HLV" when Mycroft is standing by the window talking to the other man. Mycroft says something about "As my colleague is fond of remarking, this country sometimes needs a blunt instrument. Equally, sometimes it needs a dagger - a scalpel wielded with precision and without remorse." 

 

 He looks into a room where Lady Smallwood is setting and ...if I am remembering it correctly....and I may not....but ...it seems she leans a little forwards.  So I am thinking....thinking....only...mind you...she may have been that colleague.

 

  I know she does support Sherlock when she says that sending him on the mission into Eastern Europe is no kind of mercy.

[Arcadia]

...it "seemed" like he had no alternative, but why did the directors set it up that way?...

Exactly. Were they making a point about Sherlock, or did they just want us all to go "Ohhhhh, cool!" If it was about Sherlock, what point were they making; that he's capable of murder? Why, so we'll be ready when he does it again? (And again, and again, like most detective shows...) Or is it a stage on his journey from great man to good one?

 

Me dunno, so me worries, like Chinese cat with bone.