Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[jesskayding]

Here here.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Yep, he's been crying for sure.  

 

[Arcadia]

of course we know that John will be involved but logically, they're either going to have to deal more with the personal lives perhaps as much as the cases because John is now going to be a family man.

Oh, I don't know. It's not so hard to leave the family out of the story. Look at Columbo. (Did we ever see his wife? I can't remember.)

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's not so hard to leave the family out of the story. Look at Columbo. (Did we ever see his wife? I can't remember.)

 

 

Nope, we never did.  I was never even entirely sure that he really was married until one of the later episodes had him getting a phone call from her, or something like that where we still didn't see or hear her.

 

I will grudgingly admit that there was a program that started out being called "Mrs. Columbo," which Peter Falk was never in, but where his car was in the driveway and his basset hound, Dog, was in the yard.  Much as I love Kate Mulgrew, I simply could not believe that she was his wife, and apparently a lot of other viewers agreed, because the show's title was soon changed to "Kate Columbo," and then to "Kate Loves a Mystery," and all hints regarding her connection to the Lieutenant were dropped.

 

[Arcadia]

I watched this episode again a couple of nights ago, and had a new thought .... maybe the scene in the hospital where Sherlock's heart stops is not "real life" .... it might be in his mind palace. It's hard to say because they've also started flipping to "definitely real" scenes at that point (such as John finding him in CAM's office) .... but the lighting in the OR scene is surrealistic, and it doesn't make logical sense. (The doctors wouldn't just give up on him like that.) It suddenly dawned on me that it's Sherlock's vision of what's happening, but not what's "really" happening. Rather like the courtroom sequence in TSo3.

 

I'll have to watch it again but this just makes sense to me.

 

This is a really good episode, BTW. I sort of forget because we complain about the plot turns and character developments so much; but it's beautifully put together and really packs an emotional wallop. STILL my fave of S3, I think. Altho the other two are pretty special too. I really love S3. Benedict is just amazing in this season, too; so much range.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I watched this episode again a couple of nights ago, and had a new thought .... maybe the scene in the hospital where Sherlock's heart stops is not "real life" .... it might be in his mind palace. It's hard to say because they've also started flipping to "definitely real" scenes at that point (such as John finding him in CAM's office) .... but the lighting in the OR scene is surrealistic, and it doesn't make logical sense. (The doctors wouldn't just give up on him like that.) It suddenly dawned on me that it's Sherlock's vision of what's happening, but not what's "really" happening.

 

 

Oh, I like that!  And there's another thing that's always bothered me about that scene -- the way they're doing the CPR (just sort of playing patty-cake on his chest).  Admittedly, it seems like CPR is always done that way on television, so I call it "TVR."  Real CPR is a much more energetic affair, likely to crack a few ribs, so obviously you're not going to put even a stunt man through that.  But (as Wellingtongoose pointed out in a meta) they could easily have gotten hold of a CPR-training dummy (they're amazingly lifelike) or even made a Sherlock dummy, and used that for a closeup of Sherlock's chest.  But if the whole thing is still taking place in Sherlock's mind palace, and if he has no experience with CPR (other than apparently having seen it on television!), then that's exactly how he might picture it.

 

[Caya]

And you tell me I am reaching?

 

First it was okay, Mary killed Sherlock, but Sherlock killed people too during his exile (never mind that we've never seen him do that before CAM, or the fact that Many Happy Returns showed him working together with local authorities at all times).

 

Now it's Mary never killed Sherlock, he just imagined that scene in the ER.

 

What's next - it only looked like Mary was trying to kill Sherlock, but in reality she (being a nurse) detected a hepatic tumor and targeted it, thereby saving his life with her bullet?

[sfmpco]

I don't see the CPR scene as mind palace although that's an interesting concept.  To me he goes to the depths of his mind palace, then crawls/fights his way out of that dungeon of despair... until he reaches the front door of 221B, and the he wakes up.  Maybe the CPR wasn't perfect, but he was already going down for the count in the ambulance, and probably flat-lined there and they kept up the CPR right into the operating room.  I'm always wondering why they don't have him cut open to try to stop the internal bleeding, and then later when he's with Janine you just see that one little bandage...and I'm like, really???  You think they just picked the bullet out and everything was fine?  No they would have cut him open to get the bullet out and to repair the damage.  

 

You can see how much he's still hurting and Leinster Gardens and back at 221B.  Because he's bleeding internally BECAUSE he was over-exerting himself without being healed.  Biggest culprit to that would have probably been moving John's chair back in.  Yeah, moving anything that heavy with such an abdominal wound was stupid.  

 

Who knows, maybe the whole episode was a bad dream.  NOT.  Okay, it feels that way to some, but let's hope it scoops up a zillion Emmy awards!

[Carol the Dabbler]

And you tell me I am reaching?

 

First it was okay, Mary killed Sherlock, but Sherlock killed people too during his exile (never mind that we've never seen him do that before CAM, or the fact that Many Happy Returns showed him working together with local authorities at all times).

 

Now it's Mary never killed Sherlock, he just imagined that scene in the ER.

 

What's next - it only looked like Mary was trying to kill Sherlock, but in reality she (being a nurse) detected a hepatic tumor and targeted it, thereby saving his life with her bullet?

 

 

Hmm -- I don't recall saying any of the sort -- do you, Arcadia?

 

Just because we think the scene was portrayed unrealistically doesn't mean we're saying it never happened -- just that we may have been seeing Sherlock's impression of it, rather than the literal truth.

[Caya]

Hmm -- I don't recall saying any of that -- do you, Arcadia?

 

Just because we think the scene was portrayed unrealistically doesn't necessarily mean we're saying it never happened -- just that we may have been seeing Sherlock's impression of it, rather than the literal truth.

 

I watched this episode again a couple of nights ago, and had a new thought .... maybe the scene in the hospital where Sherlock's heart stops is not "real life" .... it might be in his mind palace. [/snip]

 

Emphasis mine.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe the CPR wasn't perfect, ....

What I said was, that was not CPR.  (It was "CPR" as often seen on television, but you do it that way and your patient will either die or else recover on their own.)  It's like "kneading" bread by patting the top of the dough.

 

 

I watched this episode again a couple of nights ago, and had a new thought .... maybe the scene in the hospital where Sherlock's heart stops is not "real life" .... it might be in his mind palace. [/snip]

 

Emphasis mine.

I am not Arcadia, so I can't say for sure precisely what she meant by that. But what I was agreeing with was that we might not have been seeing literally what happened, but rather how Sherlock imagined it. We didn't always see what literally happened in CAM's flat either -- Molly et al. were not really there -- but rather we saw the scene as processed through Sherlock's perception.  That doesn't mean it didn't happen at all.

 

[sfmpco]

I'm definitely not saying John is being left out of the story. That will never happen. He is a partner in the madness BUT I have a feeling that Series 4 may really delve into some dark personal stuff for everyone that has nothing to do with any case at all. Cases will be mixed in but series 4 will get very personal.

[T.o.b.y]

I'm definitely not saying John is being left out of the story. That will never happen. He is a partner in the madness BUT I have a feeling that Series 4 may really delve into some dark personal stuff for everyone that has nothing to do with any case at all. Cases will be mixed in but series 4 will get very personal.

 

What, even more so than series 3? God, I hope not. While I love darkness and drama and character development, I'd still like to see all that firmly embedded in a few really good mysteries.

 

If it's Mary's past we're talking about, that combination shouldn't really be a problem... I bet her backstory could make a ripping good case.

 

[sfmpco]

Yeah the whole CAM thing isn't really resolved. Why would he have info on her in the first place? Why would he care? There is a lot left unsaid about her past. And Janine apparently doesn't know Mary was using her... Yet. Wouldn't mind seeing her again.

[jesskayding]

Yeah. I think the light & the way they were giving CPR was for dramatic effect. When he oPens his eyes he's defied death thru the use of his mind palace.

[Arcadia]

 

It's not so hard to leave the family out of the story. Look at Columbo. (Did we ever see his wife? I can't remember.)

 

 

Nope, we never did.  I was never even entirely sure that he really was married until one of the later episodes had him getting a phone call from her, or something like that where we still didn't see or hear her.

 

I will grudgingly admit that there was a program that started out being called "Mrs. Columbo," which Peter Falk was never in, but where his car was in the driveway and his basset hound, Dog, was in the yard.  Much as I love Kate Mulgrew, I simply could not believe that she was his wife, and apparently a lot of other viewers agreed, because the show's title was soon changed to "Kate Columbo," and then to "Kate Loves a Mystery," and all hints regarding her connection to the Lieutenant were dropped.

 

I seem to remember an episode where they were on a cruise ship and you kept seeing the back of her head in the distance, or something along those lines -- ?? And that was the closest we ever got to seeing her.

 

I forgot about that Kate Mulgrew show! Didn't know that's what happened to it, that's funny.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe I never saw the cruise-ship episode -- that doesn't sound at all familiar.  Now I'll have to see if we have it on our DVDs.

 

But I had a very clear mental image of her, and she sure wasn't Kate Mulgrew!

 

[Arcadia]

 

 

I watched this episode again a couple of nights ago, and had a new thought .... maybe the scene in the hospital where Sherlock's heart stops is not "real life" .... it might be in his mind palace. [/snip]

Emphasis mine.

 

I am not Arcadia, so I can't say for sure precisely what she meant by that. But what I was agreeing with was that we might not have been seeing literally what happened, but rather how Sherlock imagined it. We didn't always see what literally happened in CAM's flat either -- Molly et al. were not really there -- but rather we saw the scene as processed through Sherlock's perception. That doesn't mean it didn't happen at all.

 

Well, I AM Arcadia ... but Carol's done a pretty good job channeling me!

 

Yeh, definitely his heart stopped, but now I think we're not seeing what was "really" going on in the OR at that time .... we're seeing Sherlock's rather poetic interpretation of it. That's pretty neat because it relieves the writers of having to "get the science right" and they can go for the dramatic representation instead. Like most of this season, this is about how Sherlock feels about things, not about the logic of things. At that moment, he's considering giving in to death (because life hurts so much, and not just because he's been shot) and I think this is how they chose to show us that. Pretty darn cool if true.

[jesskayding]

I can actually see that.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I bet if you asked Moftiss whether that's how they intended it, they'd say "Um -- sure!" 

 

Aha!  The Columbo cruise episode is "Troubled Waters."  From Wikipedia's Columbo page (which has a lot of good info): "In the episode "Troubled Waters" (1975) other characters describe meeting and speaking to Mrs. Columbo while they are on a cruise ship, although she remains unseen."

 

[Elementary]

I don't think that Season 4 will continue with CAM and focusing on Mary's story, that would be overkill. They need to move on to mirror the rest of the books, and Moriarty. 

 

What do you guys think of the child Mary is expecting? In the books, there is no mention of her being pregnant. In fact she dies of an unknown death and Watson moves back to Baker Street... what does this mean for BBC's Mary and her kid? I feel like them both dying would be overkill as well, Mary dying and John stuck with the kid is... a bit awkward. 

 

Random, but did you know that Cumberbatch also was taught how to play violin on set?! Pretty impressive. 

[jesskayding]

I didn't know that he was really playing violin. I thought he was mimicking it. Hmmm. He became really good. Where did you find this little fact? Do you have a link?

 

Yeah they do a lot of different things from the books it seems. I've been trying to read them. I see references made, but they seem to take those references sometimes in a totally different direction.

 

Like The Woman not being American, but somehow linking some of her behaviors/activities to America.

 

& Rache meaning Rachel ( in the book one of the detectives were corrected), instead of the German for revenge.

 

It will be interesting to see how they play out/deal with the character of Mary Watson moving forward.

[Arcadia]

I don't think that Season 4 will continue with CAM and focusing on Mary's story, that would be overkill. They need to move on to mirror the rest of the books, and Moriarty. 

 

What do you guys think of the child Mary is expecting? In the books, there is no mention of her being pregnant. In fact she dies of an unknown death and Watson moves back to Baker Street... what does this mean for BBC's Mary and her kid? I feel like them both dying would be overkill as well, Mary dying and John stuck with the kid is... a bit awkward. 

 

Random, but did you know that Cumberbatch also was taught how to play violin on set?! Pretty impressive.

Someone around here theorized that since the real Mary Morstan is dead (stillborn in 1972), that takes care of "canon". I'm willing to bet they're right.

[Carol the Dabbler]

According to something (commentary? documentary?) on the DVDs, he is actually playing the violin, but that is not what we're hearing.  He has indeed taken lessons, so that his movements will match the notes being played, but the sound track used in those scenes is recorded by his teacher.

 

[jesskayding]

Ok. Because I would think it take years to become that skilled. & what I hear of BC... He's not that brilliant. He seems to be a very good actor.