Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Maybe if Sherlock had collapsed before the paramedics had arrived he would have, but no it's no surprise to me since he had filled the dispatcher in on what was going on and the paramedics came prepared to treat a gunshot victim.

[sfmpco]

Well, he was down for the count for 5-6 months.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Relapses are usually far more complicated and serious then the original event.

[T.o.b.y]

 

So no, I don't have evidence that John is having trouble settling down and adjusting to domestic life, but I think I have pretty good indicators that the story is trying to tell us he does.

 

Similar to telling us how to feel about Mary?  Yeah, I guess I understand people's irritation with that a lot better all of a sudden!

 

I've never felt obligated to look at a story the way the author tells me I should.  So I've got my own opinion of John, just as I would if he were someone I knew in real life.  I wouldn't change my opinion of him just because some mutual friends had a different opinion of him.  I'd listen to their reasons, of course, but would then continue to make up my own mind.

 

 

Hmmm, can't say I feel obligated to agree with the messages I (think I'm) getting, either, but I do always wonder, now why did they just show us that? I think one of the many reasons I love fiction so is that everything has meaning (if it's well written).

 

That doesn't mean I don't form my own opinions. I seriously doubt they meant for us to dislike Mycroft, but that doesn't mean I'll stop any time soon. I cannot forgive a man who sits around with his feet on the table and enjoys the sight of his little brother being brutally tortured, I just can't. It's like some people can't forgive Mary for the shooting. A line has been crossed there, for me.

 

Or John and Mary making up. I don't think that scene was supposed to affect the audience the way it did me; I assume I get the message, but I just don't agree with it.

[sfmpco]

So I've been reading through the transcripts and comments of HLV, and one of the comments was about who Molly was talking to when she confessed that Sherlock used her flat as a bolt hole.  Because we don't see that person.  But it is Mary.  Mary and only Mary knows this little Sherlock/Molly secret.  I'm not implying anything else is going on, just that this is something that John, Mycroft and Lestrade don't know.  But Mary has this information.  Oh yes indeed.  

 

Another thing that I totally missed was Sherlock waking up on the operating table as it fades to Mary coming into the hospital is his voice whispering...MARY.  It's definitely there.

 

I do not, however, clearly hear Sherlock say "John" twice - once when just leaving the dungeon, and the other time climbing up the stairs.  I can maybe accept that he says "John" when leaving the dungeon but not the other time.   

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I did catch Sherlock saying Mary in sync with her walking through the hospital but only on the second or third viewing.

[sfmpco]

I am just goldfish slow, I guess!

[sherlockandjohn]

I'm definitely not saying John is being left out of the story. That will never happen. He is a partner in the madness BUT I have a feeling that Series 4 may really delve into some dark personal stuff for everyone that has nothing to do with any case at all. Cases will be mixed in but series 4 will get very personal.

 

I know this is weeks since posted, but summer holidays have thrown me out of the loop for a while.

 

I could see the above happening. Mofftiss have promised us darker stories/themes for s4, but I hope it will be in connection with mysteries and crime solving. The character stuff is always the best part in any episode, but Sherlock is more unique, more original, when the character drama is developed during, and through, cases. It works wonderfully in series 1 and 2.

[sherlockandjohn]

The classic villain indeed. Totally ruthless without scruple or a shred of moral fiber. No wonder Mycroft didn't want this to go to trial. I don't even want to begin to think about his duplicity in protecting and "using" people like CAM and all of that would have come out. Mycroft was under CAM's thumb just like Sherlock said. He could be seen as an accessory to at least some of CAM's crimes.  Especially if those crimes resulted in death, like Lord Smallwood.

 

Dear, dear. Mr. Holmes. You should be happy your baby brother put an end to CAM. He put an end to your troubles as well. You better be prepared to protect Sherlock with everything you have in your arsenal of tricks.

 

His Last Vow was Mycroft's real low point, in my eyes. Saying to his brother, "If you go against Magnussen, you will find yourself going against me", and later expressing that Magnussen never does any real harm to people of importance... He really comes off as a coward. I think he just might be, actually. The government keeps Mycroft safe, but Sherlock fends for himself (okay, Mycroft comes to his aid, but if it hadn't been for John and for his own skills, he would have died long ago). Mycroft seriously needs to be put in his place.

[sherlockandjohn]

I am just goldfish slow, I guess!

 

You're not the only one. I had to watch it about 8 times, before I caught Sherlock saying "Mary" when he wakes up after surgery.

[sherlockandjohn]

Sorry, I didn't mean why she didn't want him to read it -- but rather why she had done whatever was on that flash drive.  (Just as he wanted to know why Sherlock hadn't let him know that he was alive.)  Seems like he's assuming that she had no good reason, i.e., that he doesn't trust her judgement, which seems like an odd attitude toward a wife.  (Yes, I know, but I'd expect better from John.)

 

They don't really talk things through, and that bothers me, just as it does with Sherlock and John in The Empty Hearse. So much is left unsaid. Then again, this is a detective show, not just a drama, and I actually don't want any more emphasis on the drama than we got in s3. But if you do write a big dramatic story like TRF and HLV, I think it's important to resolve the issues raised. Or maybe that's just me and my need for a harmonious "ending".

[T.o.b.y]

They don't really talk things through, and that bothers me, just as it does with Sherlock and John in The Empty Hearse. So much is left unsaid. Then again, this is a detective show, not just a drama, and I actually don't want any more emphasis on the drama than we got in s3. But if you do write a big dramatic story like TRF and HLV, I think it's important to resolve the issues raised. Or maybe that's just me and my need for a harmonious "ending".

 

Nope, it's not just you. I like to have my stories tied up neatly as well. It doesn't all have to end in harmony for me, but some kind of resolution is in order. If they just raise questions and problems and then never answer them, I feel like I'm being asked to do an unfair amount of the storytelling myself. No wonder Sherlock has inspired such a load of fan fiction...

 

But I should really stop complaining. The series isn't over, there's more to come and maybe it will all make sense eventually. And the most important story arch (for me), Sherlock's development, has been very, very beautifully told so far. The show is called Sherlock, and it's about Sherlock, and in the end, that is what I really want.

 

Actually, "so much is left unsaid" is very appropriate for Sherlock and John. It is just like them to never really talk things through, especially not stuff like The Fall and all that belongs to that. John needs a bomb threat to just admit he missed his friend and forgive him, and I have a feeling that in hindsight, Sherlock probably realizes he made a big mistake and that he wouldn't be too keen on discussing the details. I guess that's a very male attitude, to go "oh F***, this is all way too complicated, lets just forget it and move on". I'd have the same tolerance for how John decides to deal with Mary, if it was just a matter of things she did in her past. But in her case, it's just as much about the presence and future, if you ask me. With Mary, we're talking not only of what she did, but who she is, for god's sake, and I do think a husband should show some marginal interest in that.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

His Last Vow was Mycroft's real low point, in my eyes. Saying to his brother, "If you go against Magnussen, you will find yourself going against me", and later expressing that Magnussen never does any real harm to people of importance... He really comes off as a coward. I think he just might be, actually. The government keeps Mycroft safe, but Sherlock fends for himself (okay, Mycroft comes to his aid, but if it hadn't been for John and for his own skills, he would have died long ago). Mycroft seriously needs to be put in his place.

 

  I never thought Mycroft as a coward, but a bully.....yeah, he did bully Sherlock, probably why Sherlock always sees himself as a child next to Mycroft or Mycroft in a position above him in his mind palace...and yes, usually bullies are cowards underneath it all. Maybe Mycroft was belittled by "The Other One" and turned his frustration and pain onto Sherlock. But yes, I  agree Mycroft does need to be taken down a peg or two and I do hope it's Sherlock who does the taking down.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Although Sherlock kinda snaps back in his own way a few times.

 

"I'm not lonely, Sherlock."

"But how would you know?"

 

 

"Don't be smart, Sherlock."

"That takes me back. (imitates Mycroft) 'Don't be smart, Sherlock; I'm the smart one'.

 

 

"Why are you out of breath?"

"Filing."

"Either I’ve caught you in a compromising position or you’ve been working out again. I favour the latter."

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh yes, without a doubt Sherlock has learned to stand up for himself. He did so with taking on not only Moriarty but his whole network.  But Mycroft still has the ability to make Sherlock feel small....less confident and sure of himself. Sherlock has got to show Mycroft that he is on at least equal footing with his older sibling.

[T.o.b.y]

  I never thought Mycroft as a coward, but a bully.....yeah, he did bully Sherlock, probably why Sherlock always sees himself as a child next to Mycroft or Mycroft in a position above him in his mind palace...and yes, usually bullies are cowards underneath it all. Maybe Mycroft was belittled by "The Other One" and turned his frustration and pain onto Sherlock. But yes, I  agree Mycroft does need to be taken down a peg or two and I do hope it's Sherlock who does the taking down.

 

 

Oh yes please. Lets get up a petition. Where do I sign? And while we're at it, lets also request more Lestrade...

[Carol the Dabbler]

So I've been reading through the transcripts and comments of HLV, and one of the comments was about who Molly was talking to when she confessed that Sherlock used her flat as a bolt hole.  Because we don't see that person.  But it is Mary.  Mary and only Mary knows this little Sherlock/Molly secret.  I'm not implying anything else is going on, just that this is something that John, Mycroft and Lestrade don't know.  But Mary has this information.  Oh yes indeed.

Presumably it's Mary. But we also see John questioning people about the bolt holes. We seem to be expected to believe that the unseen person is Mary, but then again....

 

They don't really talk things through, and that bothers me, just as it does with Sherlock and John in The Empty Hearse. So much is left unsaid. Then again, this is a detective show, not just a drama, and I actually don't want any more emphasis on the drama than we got in s3. But if you do write a big dramatic story like TRF and HLV, I think it's important to resolve the issues raised. Or maybe that's just me and my need for a harmonious "ending".

I too am all in favor of endings. In this case, not a "the end" kind of ending (heaven forbid!), but just wrapping up the loose ends as they go along. Unfortunately, Moftiss have said that this is not a detective show, it's a show about a detective -- so who knows where things are going.

  

With Mary, we're talking not only of what she did, but who she is, for god's sake, and I do think a husband should show some marginal interest in that.

Even some casual curiosity would be nice!

[Arcadia]

Patience, grasshoppers, patience.....

[sfmpco]

Well, i didn't move fast enough on the tickets for the "His Last Vow" screening in Hertford with Abbington and Freeman Q&A, so oh well... it's all sold out, natch!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Patience, grasshoppers, patience.....

 

 

If you're talking about Mary (as good a guess as any, considering how scattered the discussion has been lately), we just watched an interview with Amanda Abbington (aw shoot, I knew I shoulda saved the URL -- sorry!) wherein she promised that Mary's story arc was going in a completely unexpected direction.  So apparently they are NOT planning to just let her be an at-home mom.  I'm hoping they'll reveal some redeeming incidents from her past -- for John's sake if not for my own.

[sfmpco]

Interesting review from The Guardian on HLV

 

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2014/jan/12/sherlock-recap-series-three-episode-three-his-last-vow

[Arcadia]

 

Patience, grasshoppers, patience.....

 

 

If you're talking about Mary (as good a guess as any, considering how scattered the discussion has been lately), we just watched an interview with Amanda Abbington (aw shoot, I knew I shoulda saved the URL -- sorry!) wherein she promised that Mary's story arc was going in a completely unexpected direction.  So apparently they are NOT planning to just let her be an at-home mom.  I'm hoping they'll reveal some redeeming incidents from her past -- for John's sake if not for my own.

 

I can't think of anything more unexpected than having her be just an at-home mom ....!

[Arcadia]

Interesting review from The Guardian on HLV

 

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2014/jan/12/sherlock-recap-series-three-episode-three-his-last-vow

I think a lot of people have changed their mind about TSo3 since it aired, at least if this forum is anything to go by.

 

I'm all in favor of playing with the format, go for it! Keeps the show fresh.

[Carol the Dabbler]

The article asks:

 

... can you turn a BBC crown jewel series, with an episode on New Year's Day, into an exercise in audience manipulation just for a better payoff at the end of the series?

 

... and the author seems to agree with you, Arcadia.  I'm not so sure.  I do like being surprised.  But maybe that's not quite the same thing as being manipulated.

 

I'll see where they go with Series 4, though.

 

[sfmpco]

Well, the thing we'll all have to keep in mind when S4 airs is not to take any episode too much by itself but that they go together as an arc... even this one-off Christmas special will get tied in somehow as part of the S4 arc.  We'll all no doubt have it studied to death by the time the other 3 from S4 airs, and then we'll be able to put together the next bits of the puzzle.