Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Boton]

 

(Although, it's always bothered me that they scroll the pressure points on a continuous loop.  There are only 6 of them, and how in the world would you ever use Redbeard against Sherlock realistically?  "Do what I want, or I'll threaten your already-dead dog?")

 

:lol: I think it's more that Sherlock is really embarrassed about Redbeard, the crippling kind of embarrassment that only our childhood follies leave us with. I mean, wasn't the idea that someone fed little Sherlock the story about Redbeard having gone to live in a wonderful place when they'd actually put him down? And our super-sleuth genius believed it?

 

Magnussen later admits that it was very hard finding a pressure point on Sherlock, so that list must have been more a collection of possibilities than anything else.

 

It's hardly complete, either. If all people a person cares about are pressure points, then why weren't the same gang on it whom Moriarty had snipers on? Plus Molly, plus Mary, plus maybe even Janine? And Sherlock's parents?

 

By the way, I can barely believe that series 3 outright called John Watson a damsel in distress and Sherlock Holmes a drama queen. This I should frame and put in the canon references thread. I mean, it's an implicit reference. I've thought the exact same thing sometimes reading those old stories...

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, you may be right.  Magnussen may have been collecting anything that Sherlock might have found embarrassing, and that's why Redbeard makes the list.  But I thought the back story about Redbeard that you mentioned was apocryphal  and not referenced in Sherlock?  

 

Totally agree on the damsel in distress/drama queen thing.  In my Kindle version of ACD, I've highlighted where Holmes says he loves a touch of the dramatic, because that's clearly "drama queen" before the term was invented.  And my husband always knows when I'm reading ACD because periodically he'll hear me yell, "Oh, dial it down, Watson!" every time Watson is a damsel in distress.  

[sittything]

See, the first time I saw that screenshot I posted I was all, "OMG.  There is another brother... he was/is MI6!!!!  Sherrinford!  Hiddles!  It's gonna happen!!!"  But then I had to revisit the screenshot with a touch of sense.

 

 

 

 

[sittything]

I think Mycroft just had a spontaneous emotion, fear for his little brother.  Awwwwww.  As soon as Sherlock shoots CAM, Mycroft starts yelling "Don't fire!  Do not fire on Sherlock Holmes!  Do not fire!"

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I think I'm going to do a marathon on Sherlock on 12/20 starting with SiP. There's some good stuff here for HLV (plus all the other episode discussions). Will need to pause and such as well.

[sittything]

One other interesting thing I noted in HLV is the recurring theme of Sherlock as the hero.   Mycroft alludes to it when he tells Sherlock outside their parents house that he (Sherlock) views himself as a dragon-slayer, when talking about CAM.  CAM again references it at the end at Appledore when he tells Sherlock he won't get to be the hero today.  Sherlock tells CAM as he's about to shoot him that he's not a hero, he's a high-functioning sociopath.  It takes me back to Series 1 when Sherlock tells John to not make him into a hero, that they don't exist, and if they did he certainly wouldn't be one.

 

All of this really makes me want to read the books, to see how Sherlock is portrayed in them, because I feel like this whole Sherlock = not a hero thing is equivalent to Mycroft not having familial sentiment.  Basically, it's rubbish.  Sherlock spends a great deal of time telling everyone (Moriarty, John, CAM, Anderson) that he's not a hero, not an angel, that he's a high-functioning sociopath, and I don't think that's how Sherlock really sees himself at all.  I think Mycroft is spot on when he says that Sherlock sees himself as the dragon-slayer.  He's the righter of injustices (Mrs. Hudson was attacked by an American, I'm restoring balance to the universe).  The more I watch Sherlock, the more I feel like Sherlock is like a great romantic hero.   I also love how he talks of London when he returns in TEH:  "Just put me back in London. I need to get to know the place again, breathe it in – feel every quiver of its beating heart."   Sherlock, your sentiment is showing.  ;)   

[T.o.b.y]

One other interesting thing I noted in HLV is the recurring theme of Sherlock as the hero.   Mycroft alludes to it when he tells Sherlock outside their parents house that he (Sherlock) views himself as a dragon-slayer, when talking about CAM.  CAM again references it at the end at Appledore when he tells Sherlock he won't get to be the hero today.  Sherlock tells CAM as he's about to shoot him that he's not a hero, he's a high-functioning sociopath.  It takes me back to Series 1 when Sherlock tells John to not make him into a hero, that they don't exist, and if they did he certainly wouldn't be one.

 

All of this really makes me want to read the books, to see how Sherlock is portrayed in them, because I feel like this whole Sherlock = not a hero thing is equivalent to Mycroft not having familial sentiment.  Basically, it's rubbish.  Sherlock spends a great deal of time telling everyone (Moriarty, John, CAM, Anderson) that he's not a hero, not an angel, that he's a high-functioning sociopath, and I don't think that's how Sherlock really sees himself at all.  I think Mycroft is spot on when he says that Sherlock sees himself as the dragon-slayer.  He's the righter of injustices (Mrs. Hudson was attacked by an American, I'm restoring balance to the universe).  The more I watch Sherlock, the more I feel like Sherlock is like a great romantic hero.   I also love how he talks of London when he returns in TEH:  "Just put me back in London. I need to get to know the place again, breathe it in – feel every quiver of its beating heart."   Sherlock, your sentiment is showing.   ;)   

 

Go ahead and read them! It's a lot of fun.

 

When I first read "The Hound of the Baskervilles" and "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes", the question of whether Sherlock Holmes was a hero did not even occur to me. Of course he was! He was a hero, and knight on a white horse and a dragon slayer, only he used his brains more than most heroes I knew, had a great sense of humor and a much more interesting personality. The lack of a sappy romance was also a big bonus for 13-year-old me (I didn't get all romantic and fuzzy until I was much older).

 

This whole thing about "I am not a hero" and the high-functioning sociopath and all that is specific to this Sherlock, I think. Sure, you can see it as subtext in the original, I guess, but those stories are told by Dr Watson, and he glorifies his big idol to no end. We never directly get Holmes' view of the matter, apart from a few quotes where he apparently said that his "Boswell" exaggerated his talents.

 

Sherlock just has a lot more depth and complexity as a character than the original Holmes. He's a big improvement, in my opinion. Still, my inner teenager will always be extremely fond of the good old Victorian detective, invincible, indestructible, always right about people. Old Holmes would never have failed to see through Mary. Ever.

 

 

[Boton]

 

 

 

This whole thing about "I am not a hero" and the high-functioning sociopath and all that is specific to this Sherlock, I think. Sure, you can see it as subtext in the original, I guess, but those stories are told by Dr Watson, and he glorifies his big idol to no end. We never directly get Holmes' view of the matter, apart from a few quotes where he apparently said that his "Boswell" exaggerated his talents.

 

Sherlock just has a lot more depth and complexity as a character than the original Holmes. He's a big improvement, in my opinion. Still, my inner teenager will always be extremely fond of the good old Victorian detective, invincible, indestructible, always right about people. Old Holmes would never have failed to see through Mary. Ever.

 

 

 

 

Definitely agree that the "not a hero" and "high functioning sociopath" are Sherlock inventions.  I think most of the modern portrayals of Holmes (even if they are set in the Victorian era) require something added to the Holmes persona to make him a little more lively or engaging to modern sensibilities.  The ACD Holmes strikes me as a much more reserved version of James Bond, but I think part of that lies with the fact that I cannot make my modern mind react to him wholly as a Victorian reader would have.

 

On the other hand, I never really believe ACD Holmes that Watson has exaggerated his talents.  I always think that it's part that Holmes wants Watson to focus on what Holmes finds interesting in a case (like a couple hundred different kinds of tobacco ash) and part a bunch of false modesty.  

[T.o.b.y]

On the other hand, I never really believe ACD Holmes that Watson has exaggerated his talents.  I always think that it's part that Holmes wants Watson to focus on what Holmes finds interesting in a case (like a couple hundred different kinds of tobacco ash) and part a bunch of false modesty.  

 

Oh-h-h-h, he wouldn't like you calling him modest:

 

"My dear Watson,” said he, “I cannot agree with those who rank modesty among the virtues. To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are, and to underestimate one’s self is as much a departure from truth as to exaggerate one’s own powers."

 

(From "The Greek Interpreter")

 

 

[Boton]

At least I called him falsely modest!

 

 

[Arcadia]

Cabbie: You’re too modest, Mr. ’olmes.
Sherlock: I'm really not.

 

 

[sfmpco]

So here's a funny DELETED bit of a scene from HLV:

 

INT:  221B BAKER STREET - MORNING

 

Anderson:  

Sorry, Sherlock.  It's for your own good.

 

Benji

(to Anderson) Oh, that's him, isn't it?

You said he'd be taller. (to Sherlock)

He's a big fan.

 

Sherlock

Who are these people? What are they

doing in my flat? Do I know these ones?

 

Benji

You said he had a photographic memory.

 

Sherlock

I make deletions.

 

Benji

Do you?  That's clever.

 

Sherlock

I'm glad you think so,

I'll be making one shortly.

 

I have to say I laughed out loud when i read that bit of Sherlock snarkiness.  Oh how I have missed it.

[sfmpco]

it would be so nice if, on the DVDs, they released EXTENDED versions of the episodes.  Please, have those directors go back into the editing rooms!!!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

it would be so nice if, on the DVDs, they released EXTENDED versions of the episodes.  Please, have those directors go back into the editing rooms!!!

 

That would be brilliant.  Each episode with any of the deleted scenes included would be fun to watch.  Then we can come back here and discuss if the deletions were good, bad or something else.

[sfmpco]

Apparently the first cut of HLV was like 5-1/2 hours long... so it isn't as if the material isn't there.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I just remebered the scene with the couple where he's having the affair & cleaned out the bank account.  They filmed that twice (with the same people) because it was going to be in a different episode & didn't work.  That could be interesting to see come up twice at different times & compare.

[sfmpco]

Well I got to thinking tonight that Molly says in the mind palace sequence that he has 3 seconds of consciousness to figure out what's going to kill him and how he needs to fall.  So then afterwards he would be unconscious...yet his mind is still working because he's clawing his way out of the dungeon  while he's on the operating table.  And that's probably at least 30-40 minutes later.

[Boton]

Well I got to thinking tonight that Molly says in the mind palace sequence that he has 3 seconds of consciousness to figure out what's going to kill him and how he needs to fall.  So then afterwards he would be unconscious...yet his mind is still working because he's clawing his way out of the dungeon  while he's on the operating table.  And that's probably at least 30-40 minutes later.

 

Yes, I think that's true.  What did you think of that? 

 

I've always sort of assumed that there was some sort of difference for Sherlock between "unconscious" and "not mentally functioning at all."  Just like some people can be in a coma but still hear conversations, I assumed that he "retreated" into his mind palace when he couldn't keep "conscious" as outsiders would interpret it, but that his soul or his intellect or whatever you want to believe it is continued to battle.

[Carol the Dabbler]

it would be so nice if, on the DVDs, they released EXTENDED versions of the episodes.  Please, have those directors go back into the editing rooms!!!

 

Or at least include more deleted scenes in their own section of the DVD, the way they did with that one Magnussen scene.  In fact, I think I prefer it that way.  Thinking back to the first two seasons on  PBS -- having two different versions of an actual episode can be very distracting, especially when you're watching the shorter version after having seen the longer one.

[sfmpco]

Deleted whole scenes, yes.  But sometimes it's not even that but just little quips of dialogue that have been nipped and tucked.  So to have scenes fully restored would be great.

[Carol the Dabbler]

We watched the PBS version of Series 2 after having already memorized the Region 2 DVDs, and I can tell you that having just single lines or even single words omitted can be highly distracting.  You're somewhat anticipating what comes next -- and it doesn't!

 

[T.o.b.y]

Extended editions of Sherlock would be heavenly. And I would certainly watch that 5-hour-version of His Last Vow. I wonder how long The Empty Hearse originally was. Maybe if we got the "full" version of that, it wouldn't feel so rushed and disjointed.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I know that people are saying they cut a lot, and they probably did cut some scenes in the sense of rewriting various drafts of the script.  But sorry -- once they started filming there was apparently very little cutting done on Series 3 -- more like adding, in fact:
 

Steven: “... this [scene] is added later, isn’t it?”
Mark: “Yeah. This whole sequence was.”
Steven: “It’d be really great at this point if I could remember why we added it later.”
Mark: “Well, firstly it was under-running. We had this whole thing with Series 3 that all the scripts were long and then they came in short.”
Sue: “In fact, the only one that didn’t have time problems was ‘Vow’, because Lars is much slower.”
Steven: “Yeah, but ‘His Last Vow’ was a very long script, and I remember it was about 140 pages at one point and you said, Mark, you said, ‘Ah, so it’ll be ten minutes long, then, going by our current record,’ and it was dead easy to get to time. We hardly lost anything.”

 
(Quote from Ariane DeVere's transcript of "The Empty Hearse.")

[Boton]

Extended editions of Sherlock would be heavenly. And I would certainly watch that 5-hour-version of His Last Vow. I wonder how long The Empty Hearse originally was. Maybe if we got the "full" version of that, it wouldn't feel so rushed and disjointed.

 

Part of me would love to see a five-hour HLV; part of me would watch HLV as a five-night miniseries all on its own.

 

But I'm glad they cut if they needed to cut.  Just thinking about the deleted scene with CAM, the re-addition of that single scene would subtly but importantly change the whole character motivation arc of the story.  I hope they sit down once they have a rough edited copy and ask themselves if the product is indeed telling the story they want to tell.  I kind of think they do.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Interesting observation from those guys. An eye opener on perspective.

[Arcadia]

Apparently the first cut of HLV was like 5-1/2 hours long... so it isn't as if the material isn't there.

 

Steven: “Yeah, but ‘His Last Vow’ was a very long script, and I remember it was about 140 pages at one point and you said, Mark, you said, ‘Ah, so it’ll be ten minutes long, then, going by our current record,’ and it was dead easy to get to time. We hardly lost anything.”

This is another one of those brain exploding moments. How can they cut 5.5 hours down to 1.5 hours and "hardly lose anything." ?

 

(Maybe it's another entry for the Moftiss dictionary:

Entry: hardly any. Definition: Only four hours worth. )