Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Carol the Dabbler]

Apparently the 5-1/2 hour initial cut is some sort of fan myth.  I assume Moftiss would know how long their episodes were, and I see no reason why they'd fudge something like that.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Maybe it was the initial edit where the flubs were taken out leaving 5.5 hrs of footage to go from, then it was a matter of which take to use to get what they wanted for the final edition.

[Boton]

And even if there's a kernal of truth there, maybe it wasn't five hours of usable footage.  So, not just including the flubs, but maybe that counts lines filmed from a variety of different angles or a number of takes of things where Freeman said the lines differently and they had to pick the one with the intent they desired.  So five hours may  not really be five hours.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

Where did the "five-and-a-half hours" info come from?  Does anyone know the original source?

 

[Shadow Dweller]

Sherlock is a tragic figure here. He does not have to kill Magnussen but he did it anyway to fulfil his promise to John and Mary Watson at their wedding.

 

Why he did it? My take is, outside the altruistic motivation, for Sherlock it is clear that he cannot depend on Mycroft to do it (the latter already stated that going against Magnussen means going against him).

 

Why Mycroft did not deal with CAM? Probably because CAM was useful to keep certain people in check and thus make his job easier. Fear is a good motivation to make people behave. It is unfortunate that Mycroft cannot convince Sherlock to look at the problem his way. 

 

Sherlock, a lonely figure with nothing to lose, decide to sacrifice himself for the future of few people he can call friends.

[sfmpco]

Well, I've read Benedict's take on it which was that being outsmarted and outplayed, Sherlock's emotions overruled his head and he resorted to violence to solve his problem.

 

My take on it is similar, but what I find more interesting is what happens afterwards...that he basically goes into shock and the child in him - the same child who in his mind palace had been called stupid by Mycroft - that same child now looked up to Mycroft with tears of fear over what he had done.  I see a very scared little boy.  

 

 

[Shadow Dweller]

Well, I've read Benedict's take on it which was that being outsmarted and outplayed, Sherlock's emotions overruled his head and he resorted to violence to solve his problem.

 

My take on it is similar, but what I find more interesting is what happens afterwards...that he basically goes into shock and the child in him - the same child who in his mind palace had been called stupid by Mycroft - that same child now looked up to Mycroft with tears of fear over what he had done.  I see a very little boy.  

 

In shock and still managed to say to John to give his regard to Mary, that she is safe now. That's so sweet. :hug Sherlock:  :lol:

 

It is a logical decision (to kill CAM immediately) if we think one step ahead but goes further than that then major problems begins to rear their ugly heads.

 

Oh Sherlock.... you are so lucky that this case did not turn into a media circus else your sacrifice for Mary and John will be for naught as everyone around you would be put under the media spotlight anyway. However, that Gryffindor-ish decision makes Sherlock really 'human' and certainly echoes with many people's basic instinct of fight or flight.

 

That frightened child certainly aroused hidden maternal instinct in me, it shouted, "Protect Sherlock!" in all capitalized letters.  :lol:

 

With Magnussen gone, Mary Watson has a little more time to enjoy domestic bliss. However, I am not sure it could end in 'happily ever after' because John Watson is a public figure and around him are people who tends to attract troubles of the worst kind (yoohoo... Sherlock and Mycroft, do you copy?). She can run but for how long before AGRA's past come to bite her back?

[sfmpco]

yes, he said "Give my love to Mary.  Tell her she's safe now" - which was right before the shock set in.  But once he sank to his knees, his face went blank from the shock as he retreated into his mind palace for a frame of reference... he returned to a time when he was a scared little brother looking to big brother for help.

 

It will be interesting how Mary's story arcs.  Whatever happens with her is definitely going to shake Sherlock and especially John, and Sherlock is going to have to step up his compassion a bit to help John deal with stuff.

[Shadow Dweller]

yes, he said "Give my love to Mary.  Tell her she's safe now" - which was right before the shock set in.  But once he sank to his knees, his face went blank from the shock as he retreated into his mind palace for a frame of reference... he returned to a time when he was a scared little brother looking to big brother for help.

 

It will be interesting how Mary's story arcs.  Whatever happens with her is definitely going to shake Sherlock and especially John, and Sherlock is going to have to step up his compassion a bit to help John deal with stuff.

 

Eh? It is before the shock set in?  :o  I thought that the child Sherlock is from Mycroft's POV. I definitely needs to watch HLV again. 

[sfmpco]

 

yes, he said "Give my love to Mary.  Tell her she's safe now" - which was right before the shock set in.  But once he sank to his knees, his face went blank from the shock as he retreated into his mind palace for a frame of reference... he returned to a time when he was a scared little brother looking to big brother for help.

 

It will be interesting how Mary's story arcs.  Whatever happens with her is definitely going to shake Sherlock and especially John, and Sherlock is going to have to step up his compassion a bit to help John deal with stuff.

 

Eh? It is before the shock set in?  :o  I thought that the child Sherlock is from Mycroft's POV. I definitely needs to watch HLV again. 

 

 

There is some debate about that, but since the first two instances of young Sherlock are in the mind palace, it only follows suit that the third instance is also in the mind palace.  Young Sherlock is only from Sherlock's point of view.  

[Shadow Dweller]

With CAM dead, immediate, first line of danger removed. However, should CAM actually have backup plans in case of untimely demise at the hands of less than cooperative victim......

 

He better have a dead man's switch or two, least his rating as a villain would drop to a mere 'creepy dimwit'.  :P  

[Carol the Dabbler]

I hadn't thought of that, but that's certainly a possibility.  Why should Moriarty be the only one with a network?  Come to think of it, CAM literally has a (television) network, though I suppose that's just a verbal coincidence.

 

For Mary and John's sake, we can only hope that CAM didn't care what happened if he was dead -- or assumed that he was going to live forever.

 

[T.o.b.y]

With CAM dead, immediate, first line of danger removed. However, should CAM actually have backup plans in case of untimely demise at the hands of less than cooperative victim......

 

He better have a dead man's switch or two, least his rating as a villain would drop to a mere 'creepy dimwit'.  :P  

 

In my eyes, Magnussen was a creepy dimwit. I mean, he wasn't really particularly clever, was he? He'd mastered the mind palace thing, but a good memory alone does not make you actually intelligent, at least not in my book. You've got to be able to put all that information to good use, and I haven't seen Magnussen do that, have I. Bullying people isn't exactly the work of a genius.

 

Come to think of it, Magnussen was pretty pathetic.

 

[Arcadia]

In my eyes, Magnussen was a creepy dimwit. I mean, he wasn't really particularly clever, was he? He'd mastered the mind palace thing, but a good memory alone does not make you actually intelligent, at least not in my book. You've got to be able to put all that information to good use, and I haven't seen Magnussen do that, have I. Bullying people isn't exactly the work of a genius.

 

Come to think of it, Magnussen was pretty pathetic.

I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the problems I had with HLV; CAM just never really seemed like that much of a menace to me. Icky, but so is a cockroach. But not very menacing.

[Shadow Dweller]

 

With CAM dead, immediate, first line of danger removed. However, should CAM actually have backup plans in case of untimely demise at the hands of less than cooperative victim......

 

He better have a dead man's switch or two, least his rating as a villain would drop to a mere 'creepy dimwit'.  :P  

 

In my eyes, Magnussen was a creepy dimwit. I mean, he wasn't really particularly clever, was he? He'd mastered the mind palace thing, but a good memory alone does not make you actually intelligent, at least not in my book. You've got to be able to put all that information to good use, and I haven't seen Magnussen do that, have I. Bullying people isn't exactly the work of a genius.

 

Come to think of it, Magnussen was pretty pathetic.

 

 

 

I agree that memory palace alone is not a mark of intelligence, it is merely part of the arsenal that someone must be able to use in order to be considered as 'smart'. A tool and nothing more, to mould people and circumstances in order to reach the next step of the game.

 

However, if we want to boil down everything to the basic, bar a few, most of the evidence of intelligence in the series are circumstantial and are based on speculation / societal expectation. CAM, a media Mogul, to be able to stay on top and be a feared person by politicians, he must have a considerable intelligence and street-smart. Moriarty, to be able to stay as mastermind criminal, he must be intelligent enough to be able to navigate 'the underworld' in order to manoeuvre resources. However, as a fruit of perception, a notion of intelligence itself is subject to personal standard, aka everyone have their own idea about it. 

 

'Of course they would not kill Moriarty easily, he is the original and the true counterpart of Sherlock Holmes', 'CAM is not intelligent or smart because so far what he did does not need such thing to be to pull off'. Those are example of our own perception in action. Notice that I never refer CAM as a smart character and yet it seems that it is? That is called Confirmation Bias, yet another useful tool to remember if you are someone who must to be able to direct mass perception to certain direction. 'CAM is a threatening character but not in physical way, therefore he must be scarily smart'. Producers Moffat and Gatiss have been playing with the audience's minds for so long, it is practically their bread and butter.

 

Everything is subject to change, whether it is growth, decline or merely horizontal move. When a character needed to do certain thing then that's where, when and what they will do. Caring is not an advantage, neither it is a disadvantage; it is just another product of our perception and wishful thinking and it is itself is subject to change according to circumstances. 

[T.o.b.y]

 

In my eyes, Magnussen was a creepy dimwit. I mean, he wasn't really particularly clever, was he? He'd mastered the mind palace thing, but a good memory alone does not make you actually intelligent, at least not in my book. You've got to be able to put all that information to good use, and I haven't seen Magnussen do that, have I. Bullying people isn't exactly the work of a genius.

 

Come to think of it, Magnussen was pretty pathetic.

I couldn't agree more. I think that's one of the problems I had with HLV; CAM just never really seemed like that much of a menace to me. Icky, but so is a cockroach. But not very menacing.

 

 

Oh, I find him menacing enough. Because he had power. He had power but neither morals nor brains nor some kind of meaningful purpose to use it wisely. So he was left with bothering people for the sheer heck of it. It's as if someone gave your average schoolyard bully a huge media corporation, a ton of money and an unlimited memory. Disaster. 

 

[sfmpco]

I think blackmail can be quite menacing because it's a form of bullying taken to a whole different level.  And then there's the whole ICK factor on top of it that goes with CAM.  

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I think blackmail can be quite menacing because it's a form of bullying taken to a whole different level.  And then there's the whole ICK factor on top of it that goes with CAM.  

 

I totally agree. CAM new how to use his brain to a point and he used it in the worst way possible without doing anything that was technically illegal.

[Boton]

I'm watching HLV right now while I work, and I love when I get to see a favorite scene with fresh eyes and burst out laughing.  Today's scene:

 

The part at the drug den where Sherlock slides into the back seat of John and Mary's car next to Isaac Whitney, then Billy Wiggins gets in next.  For just a second, those long legs come up and his knees come into view as we see Sherlock having to sit on the hump.  And I just died -- here are a couple of really young druggies bracketing Sherlock freakin' Holmes, as John and Mary haul them all off for a variety of stern talkings-to.  Parenting him, indeed.  Bwah!  

[sfmpco]

I'm watching HLV right now while I work, and I love when I get to see a favorite scene with fresh eyes and burst out laughing.  Today's scene:

 

The part at the drug den where Sherlock slides into the back seat of John and Mary's car next to Isaac Whitney, then Billy Wiggins gets in next.  For just a second, those long legs come up and his knees come into view as we see Sherlock having to sit on the hump.  And I just died -- here are a couple of really young druggies bracketing Sherlock freakin' Holmes, as John and Mary haul them all off for a variety of stern talkings-to.  Parenting him, indeed.  Bwah!  

 

laughing so hard I am almost crying!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

I'm watching HLV right now while I work, and I love when I get to see a favorite scene with fresh eyes and burst out laughing.  Today's scene:

 

The part at the drug den where Sherlock slides into the back seat of John and Mary's car next to Isaac Whitney, then Billy Wiggins gets in next.  For just a second, those long legs come up and his knees come into view as we see Sherlock having to sit on the hump.  And I just died -- here are a couple of really young druggies bracketing Sherlock freakin' Holmes, as John and Mary haul them all off for a variety of stern talkings-to.  Parenting him, indeed.  Bwah!  

 

laughing so hard I am almost crying!

 

 

Must grab disc and re-watch.  Laughing at the description of that scene.

[sfmpco]

This roughly translates to: "I will slap you until two and two makes an odd number" - which means she will slap all she wants. hehehehehe

 

[sfmpco]

I keep thinking when Sherlock makes the "4G wireless" comment about Magnussen's glasses that one day in the very near future, that will seem incredibly antiquated for power.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I keep thinking when Sherlock makes the "4G wireless" comment about Magnussen's glasses that one day in the very near future, that will seem incredibly antiquated for power.

 

Most probably true.  But I assume it's appropriate for right now, which is what counts.

 

I remember watching The Day the Earth Stood Still at a college movie night, and when they try to cut into Klaatu's spaceship using a diamond bit, some jerk in the back of the room loudly jeered at them for not using the state of the art material instead -- not taking into account that diamond WAS state of the art for 1951 (when the movie was made, and more importantly when the story was set).  He kept up with that sort of intermittent noise until finally a fellow in the front of the room stood up, turned to face him, and bellowed, "SHUT UP!  AIN'T YOU GOT NO RESPECK!!!"  The entire rest of the audience cheered, and the jerk in the back was not heard from again.  :D

 

Hopefully, future Sherlock audiences will show some "respeck"!

 

[Arcadia]

That jerk is probably the (overpaid) CEO of some tech start up today. :P