What about Sherlock's feelings for Molly?

[sfmpco]

Just found this lovely bit via Twitter #sherlolly:

 

[Arcadia]

I'm curious what you made of Sherlock telling her that she chose her password based on sentiment? I read her character the same way you do, but then how do you reconcile that part of their exchange? Oh and I totally agree about him having several :D

Sorry, somehow I missed seeing this question when you posted it. Not that I have a very good answer. I think I simply sort of dismiss that bit, because I don't really believe either of them has very deep feelings for each other. But I do think they're a bit fascinated with each other, and I guess they could care about each other without caring for each other, if you see what I mean. So I suppose that's a form of sentiment. But really, I think Irene chose "Sherlocked" as her code because she thought he'd never figure it out.

 

The thing about this is to me the way she evaded deduction was a parlour trick situation. Usually Sherlock reads people based on a lot more than clothes- body language, expression, the condition of their fingernails... I would have thought seeing every freckle and scar a person has would give him more to work with? Or was it that he was distracted by both wanting to look and not wanting to look, and that threw him off? What did Moriarty tell her to use against him?

I've always thought it was more than just her being sans clothing ... remember, she spent "ages" getting ready, i.e., removing physical clues. Plus she's just very confident and good at not giving anything away. She'd make a good p0ker player.

 

. But for some reason, overall, the whole scene read to me as Sherlock having woefully underestimated Irene. Then when he was sort of hanging around upstairs and she managed to stab him in the neck, again, I was annoyed at how easy he made it for her, when by then he should have known she wasn't to be trusted.

Oh, I think he knew she couldn't be trusted. But Irene's right, he believes in a higher power -- himself -- and assumes he's in control of the situation. And I think he's being particularly over-confident because she rattled him. Male pride, y'know. ;)

[bedelia1984]

 

 

I've always thought it was more than just her being sans clothing ... remember, she spent "ages" getting ready, i.e., removing physical clues. Plus she's just very confident and good at not giving anything away. She'd make a good p0ker player.

 

 

 

 

Yes that makes more sense, if she was hiding physical clues, instead of just stripping. I clearly was not giving Irene enough credit.

 

Oh, I think he knew she couldn't be trusted. But Irene's right, he believes in a higher power -- himself -- and assumes he's in control of the situation. And I think he's being particularly over-confident because she rattled him. Male pride, y'know.

 

 

I think you're right here, and it also goes to the heart of my own problem with the episode. I am probably reading too much into Sherlock's behaviour, but to me there is something almost sexist into both the way he underestimates her and the way he defines her sentimentality, and apparently uses it to one-up her. And then, the fact that he titles her as 'The Woman'- plus that rescue scene at the end. I think maybe my main issue with this episode is that they portray Irene as a woman, and a sort of ideal, in the world of Sherlock who is supposed to be capable of outsmarting Sherlock- yet her undoing is in both falling for him, and then needing his rescue at the end.

[sfmpco]

This thread is off topic!  

[Arcadia]

This thread is off topic!

How typical of us!

 

 

Oh, I think he knew she couldn't be trusted. But Irene's right, he believes in a higher power -- himself -- and assumes he's in control of the situation. And I think he's being particularly over-confident because she rattled him. Male pride, y'know.

 

I think you're right here, and it also goes to the heart of my own problem with the episode. I am probably reading too much into Sherlock's behaviour, but to me there is something almost sexist into both the way he underestimates her and the way he defines her sentimentality, and apparently uses it to one-up her. And then, the fact that he titles her as 'The Woman'- plus that rescue scene at the end. I think maybe my main issue with this episode is that they portray Irene as a woman, and a sort of ideal, in the world of Sherlock who is supposed to be capable of outsmarting Sherlock- yet her undoing is in both falling for him, and then needing his rescue at the end.

 

Well, to be fair, she calls herself "The Woman," that's not his invention. And in Moffat's eyes, at least (according to a couple interviews) Irene won in the end; he acted like he hated her, but he came to her rescue anyway.

 

But I think Sherlock IS a bit sexist ... not in the sense that he thinks women are inferior, but in the sense that he thinks they are an annoying distraction -- as if that was somehow their fault and not his. :p It's not until Molly "sees" him in the lab in TRF that he takes a step beyond that, I think. See, we ARE on topic! :p

[bedelia1984]

 And in Moffat's eyes, at least (according to a couple interviews) Irene won in the end; he acted like he hated her, but he came to her rescue anyway.

 

 

This is such a weird POV to me, as I thought the game they were playing was who could outsmart the other, not who likes/ wants to rescue who the most. Way to move the goalposts, Moffat.

 

But I think Sherlock IS a bit sexist ... not in the sense that he thinks women are inferior, but in the sense that he thinks they are an annoying distraction -- as if that was somehow their fault and not his.  :P It's not until Molly "sees" him in the lab in TRF that he takes a step beyond that, I think. See, we ARE on topic!

 

 

Nice save! (to continue the football metaphors, whilst knowing nothing of said sport in reality). I'll play devil's advocate here (as really I want to believe that Molly has taught Sherlock to have a newfound respect for women). If you look at how he underestimates Irene in Scandal, versus how he uses Janine in HLV, might one conclude that Sherlock has changed his view of women somewhere along the line from 'annoying distraction' to 'not without their uses'? I mean more, his attitude to women in general here, as I believe he has a deeper respect for the women he is close to (Molly, Mary, Mrs. Hudson). Then again, maybe he views all non-essential people, male and female as annoying distractions?

 

I also thought he got a perverse pleasure from telling Kitty Reilly she repelled him. That's an interesting choice of words for a man who gives little away in general in terms of what attracts him, if anything. But you can't have one without the other, right?

 

In an attempt to get back on topic, it is interesting to me that when Sherlock was insulting Molly, he was also in a sense making observations, of her insecurities about her appearance perhaps more so than his own feelings about them. Does this reflect any sort of insecurities Sherlock has himself? When he compliments Molly, it is about how much she matters to him, and about who she is. I would describe Molly as a person insecure physically, but quite secure and unthinking about being a good person- she just is one. Whereas Sherlock is perhaps almost too secure in his looks and attractiveness, but perhaps more insecure in how good and worthwhile of a person he truly is. I think about this especially in light of the continuing journey we have seen for his character in which he is finding ways to prove and discover his worth in the lives of his friends.

[Arcadia]

 

And in Moffat's eyes, at least (according to a couple interviews) Irene won in the end; he acted like he hated her, but he came to her rescue anyway.

 

This is such a weird POV to me, as I thought the game they were playing was who could outsmart the other, not who likes/ wants to rescue who the most. Way to move the goalposts, Moffat.

 

But part of the game of outsmarting each other included playing with each other's "sentiment", didn't it? Each suggesting with their body language that they might be attracted to the other? Until he appears to reject her at the end, and walks out. Then we find out later that he at least cared enough about her to save her life. That's what makes her the winner. I still haven't decided what Irene felt about him at that point, but she has a triumphant smile on her face. 

 

 

But I think Sherlock IS a bit sexist ... not in the sense that he thinks women are inferior, but in the sense that he thinks they are an annoying distraction -- as if that was somehow their fault and not his. It's not until Molly "sees" him in the lab in TRF that he takes a step beyond that, I think. See, we ARE on topic!

 

Nice save! (to continue the football metaphors, whilst knowing nothing of said sport in reality). I'll play devil's advocate here (as really I want to believe that Molly has taught Sherlock to have a newfound respect for women). If you look at how he underestimates Irene in Scandal, versus how he uses Janine in HLV, might one conclude that Sherlock has changed his view of women somewhere along the line from 'annoying distraction' to 'not without their uses'? I mean more, his attitude to women in general here, as I believe he has a deeper respect for the women he is close to (Molly, Mary, Mrs. Hudson). Then again, maybe he views all non-essential people, male and female as annoying distractions?

 

I favor the latter; it just sounds so Sherlock!

 

I like to think Janine taught him something too; that just because she's a woman doesn't mean she couldn't have been friends with him. Something I hope he'll apply to Molly. And I think he feels safe in accepting Mary into his life because she "belongs" to John; no chance she'll threaten his precious bachelorhood! :D

 

I also thought he got a perverse pleasure from telling Kitty Reilly she repelled him. That's an interesting choice of words for a man who gives little away in general in terms of what attracts him, if anything. But you can't have one without the other, right?

 

In an attempt to get back on topic, it is interesting to me that when Sherlock was insulting Molly, he was also in a sense making observations, of her insecurities about her appearance perhaps more so than his own feelings about them. Does this reflect any sort of insecurities Sherlock has himself? When he compliments Molly, it is about how much she matters to him, and about who she is. I would describe Molly as a person insecure physically, but quite secure and unthinking about being a good person- she just is one. Whereas Sherlock is perhaps almost too secure in his looks and attractiveness, but perhaps more insecure in how good and worthwhile of a person he truly is. I think about this especially in light of the continuing journey we have seen for his character in which he is finding ways to prove and discover his worth in the lives of his friends.

I've never put too much store in what he said to Kitty, because I've always thought that at that point he was deliberately trying to turn the press against him. The fact that she was female just made his nastiness even nastier.

 

I like your final comments there (nice save to you, too! ) and that's pretty much how I see both of them as well. In a way, those two are a lot alike; both somewhat socially awkward, both a bit morbid, a bit studious. But he chooses to hide his insecurities in arrogance, imho, and she chooses not to. Something like that.....

[bedelia1984]

 I still haven't decided what Irene felt about him at that point, but she has a triumphant smile on her face.

 

 

To me, it was totally Sherlock's Knight-In-Shining-Armour moment. I was reminded of it when Mycroft talked about how Sherlock wanted to be out slaying dragons. I wonder if that is the ultimate seduction for Sherlock- giving him the opportunity to save you. In which case, he and John have been seducing each other for years (ahem, wrong thread). But what better way to feed that insecurity we've spoken about?

 

I've never put too much store in what he said to Kitty, because I've always thought that at that point he was deliberately trying to turn the press against him.

 

For some reason, I thought there was the slightest hint of genuine attraction there on both sides in that scene. I think her ruthlessness and dishonesty might have at least given him pause. Sort of like that weird chemistry he has with Moriaty (again, wrong thread). Which, to me, is how he knew just which way to twist the knife. 

 

But he chooses to hide his insecurities in arrogance, imho, and she chooses not to. Something like that.....

 

 

I like that because it acknowledges the fundamental bravery at the heart of Molly's character. At Christmas, at her most crushed, she is still able to say how she feels. It seems so small, but I don't believe many real people have that sort of bravery. Big rescues and so on are easier, somehow.

[Arcadia]

....I wonder if that is the ultimate seduction for Sherlock- giving him the opportunity to save you. In which case, he and John have been seducing each other for years (ahem, wrong thread). But what better way to feed that insecurity we've spoken about?

Wow. Never thought of it that way before but I like it!

 

 

But he chooses to hide his insecurities in arrogance, imho, and she chooses not to. Something like that.....

 

I like that because it acknowledges the fundamental bravery at the heart of Molly's character. At Christmas, at her most crushed, she is still able to say how she feels. It seems so small, but I don't believe many real people have that sort of bravery. Big rescues and so on are easier, somehow.

 

She's honest, which none of the rest of them really are.

[sfmpco]

When he said to Kitty Riley, "You repel me," I have always felt he was repelled by being ambushed by press while in the toilet.  He was likewise repelled by her initial cover story of wanting his autograph while ambushing him in the toilet.  I think he would have said the exact same words to a man who had done the same thing.  Sherlock IS a celebrity of sorts in his London, but intrusive press is a bain him, just as it is to BC.  Anyhow, his words of "You repel me" have absolutely nothing to do with Kitty being female.

[Arcadia]

I agree, it was her status as a reporter that set him off. Although I think in general a man being nasty to a woman is perceived as -- nastier -- than man to man, or woman to man. The balance of power isn't the same. At least, I assume that's why they made the reporter a woman, to increase the level of discomfort with that scene. Although she's pretty creepy all by herself, isn't she?

[bedelia1984]

Although I think in general a man being nasty to a woman is perceived as -- nastier -- than man to man, or woman to man. The balance of power isn't the same. At least, I assume that's why they made the reporter a woman, to increase the level of discomfort with that scene. Although she's pretty creepy all by herself, isn't she? 

 

 

Well, at least Sherlock's not sexist in that regard! I think part of what made the 'you repel me' stand out for me was that it was delivered in such a personal tone, and so close after her attempted flirting (albeit with obvious ulterior motives). To me, the put down was more than just about her profession- though I bet he does hate the tabloid press with a vengeance. I do get the intrusion on his privacy is wrong, but he's not above flirting- or lying- or fake engagements- to get what he wants professionally himself. Of course, if he'd even pretended to be civil with Kitty, she might not have proved so vindictive later, so she was serving the plot well too. It's interesting that Janine's punishment of choice for him was a newspaper story, too, she definitely knew a soft spot to attack there.

 

And just one more thing about Kitty to put her in a Molly context- it kind of bothers me that he does that same head to toe finding fault with her as he does with Molly- though if anything he's less insulting about her (Kitty's) appearance, focusing more on her perceived wealth, which he must think is her button. I think maybe they are the only two women we've seen him do that kind of a take-down to? Which seems rather an unfair club for Molly to be in. But my memory may be failing me.

 

P.S.- and yes, she is creepy, very creepy, which is why I thought he might like her, just a smidge.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Sherlock does scan The Woman as well only to realize he can't deduce a thing on her except for her measurements.  Sherlock definitely didn't treat Molly well when he scanned and deduced her but realized 2 episodes later that she actually is better than all of that and rather useful to him (in a non-manipulative way)

[sfmpco]

Another lovely Sherlolly video:

 

[Arcadia]

I think the opening sequence in that video ... where he's walking away from her ... is one of the saddest things in the whole series.

[bedelia1984]

I think the opening sequence in that video ... where he's walking away from her ... is one of the saddest things in the whole series.

 

 

I was just thinking, watching this, that I have seen that moment in so many videos and yet it is still sad (or maybe more sad after seeing it so many times, and her face just after...) They need to make more episodes with more moments (less heart-wrenching if possible), if only so people can make more peppy videos about them. 

[sittything]

Good grief.  That was a beautifully bittersweet video.  I can't watch too many videos b/c they do nothing to keep me grounded in reality.  lol  

[Arcadia]

Just read this, thought it was a really lovely take on the relationship between Sherlock and Molly. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11586436/1/ This is the closet match I've seen to how I think things went down between them in HLV. As Mr. Moffat said, Sherlock loves Molly; just ... not that way.

[sfmpco]

Just read this, thought it was a really lovely take on the relationship between Sherlock and Molly. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11586436/1/ This is the closet match I've seen to how I think things went down between them in HLV. As Mr. Moffat said, Sherlock loves Molly; just ... not that way.

 

Of course that's true.  It's also true that he loves John; just... not that way.

 

Even so, I do believe that in this modern incarnation, he is at least capable if he chose to be... 

 

And although there is nothing of a romance  to be had with Sherlock and Molly, there is a very deep level of friendship between them as well as a deep level of trust.  For him to use her flat as a bolt hole when he knows how she feels about him - and not just her flat but her bedroom... well, that's a whole different level of friendship.

 

Once in a while a friendship can be so deep that both parties miss the obvious.  In a way, i see them as two ships passing in the night.

[bedelia1984]

Nice little fic Arcadia, I think I've read some others by that writer too.

 

I always find it so surprising that so many fans can make such fine distinctions about what Sherlock feels about people like John or Molly. I think if he were in love with either he'd be perfectly capable of keeping it a total secret- and I include in that the idea of it being a secret from the audience itself. From what I see of the character onscreen, he throws a lot of mixed signals around- which is a great way of concealing what you really feel, and a very handy device for the writers who might want to keep all the fans happy.

 

Even so, I do believe that in this modern incarnation, he is at least capable if he chose to be..

 

 

I was watching a Q and A with the actors and makers, and Benedict Cumberbatch spoke about how HLV was so important because it reminded people that Sherlock was dangerous and not someone you should want to cosy up to. I see his point, but I also think it is interesting that was identified as a need- and I think it's because on some level the people making the show know that theirs is one of the most vulnerable Sherlocks out there. I do think part of it is the actor himself, and the emotional depth he brings to the part- you can't help but believe there are so many other layers underneath the logic.

 

[sfmpco]

He is a dangerous man on one facet, but there are other facets too.  He also can clearly control his need to trump anyone's intelligence and focus on the moment, including the tender scene he shared with Molly at the bottom of the stairs.  He was also gentle with Mary, even when she was about to shoot him.  He's less gentle with John in an overt way, but yet he puts his life on the line twice to save him.  He does the giant, sweeping gestures with John.  But he does have a very tender, very sweet side as well.  Also playful, puppyish.  Just never lie to him, and never cross him, and never hurt any of the people close to him or close to them.  Then he will be very dangerous.  He was even briefly tender and comforting to Sarah in TBB when he rescued her.  Gentle words, gentle touch.  He protects the things that interest John.  He was rougher around the edges in ASIP but by HLV, even though he's done the most dangerous thing of all, he has also done one of the most sacrificial things of all - and revealed his vulnerability of fear by being the young Sherlock crying in fear for help to his older brother.  

[bedelia1984]

He was rougher around the edges in ASIP but by HLV, even though he's done the most dangerous thing of all, he has also done one of the most sacrificial things of all - and revealed his vulnerability of fear by being the young Sherlock crying in fear for help to his older brother.  

 

 

I so agree with this. I can't help but wonder if the writers intended it to come off that way- but I think a lot of the audience were keenly aware of the sacrifice that Sherlock made here, and were also worried about how this will affect him emotionally. 

 

I sometimes feel like they write Sherlock as part superhero- not just when he's surveying London from rooftops (!) but also when Mycroft is sending him off an almost inhuman missions... and yet, somehow, despite this his humanity has been coming increasingly to the forefront. You can see it in his relationship with John, and with Mary, and with Molly too- he came back from 'the fall' much altered, and there still seems to be more layers underneath that, which I really hope they will explore further. I think there is a part of the narrative, where like in (if you forgive the cheesey example) It's A Wonderful Life, he had to leave his life in order to really see and appreciate it, and that has affected him profoundly. I wouldn't like HLV to be an excuse to set him back into the sort of remove he had at the beginning of season one.

 

Also, his actions in HLV have to be seen in the context of the universe of the series and that code of ethics, rather than by our own. We did already see John, in episode one, killing a dangerous man in less that strictly legal means. Not quite as extreme as HLV, but in the world of Sherlock there seem to be two sides (the angels and the other) and the rules of engagement are not necessarily the same as in our own society.

[sfmpco]

Oh they definitely play him as a hero type, and of course, HERO is in his name.  SHERLOCK 

 

Plus they give him the Belstaff which often flaps in the breeze like a superhero cape.  But he does have his own set of ethics, and let's not forget "I'm not the commonweath.."  You get the feeling that no matter what mess he gets into, Mycroft will get him out of it somehow (which is why I think the whole Moriarty thing at the end of HLV is a Mycroft device).  He says he's on the side of the angels but not one of them, but despite all his flaws, he is still one of the good guys, although I think he chafes at the idea of being a good guy because basically hes not in it for doing good but for solving a puzzle to stave off the boredom.

[Arcadia]

I was watching a Q and A with the actors and makers, and Benedict Cumberbatch spoke about how HLV was so important because it reminded people that Sherlock was dangerous and not someone you should want to cosy up to. I see his point, but I also think it is interesting that was identified as a need- and I think it's because on some level the people making the show know that theirs is one of the most vulnerable Sherlocks out there. I do think part of it is the actor himself, and the emotional depth he brings to the part- you can't help but believe there are so many other layers underneath the logic.

And I can only assume that if Moftiss hadn't wanted that emotional depth to their version of this character, they wouldn't have hired a sensitive actor like BC to play him. Or did they get more than they bargained for? Either way, there is something about this Sherlock that brings out the mom in a lot of us, isn't there? And I suspect I for one wouldn't like the show so much if he didn't.

 

By the way, do you still have a link to that Q&A? I don't remember hearing that, I'm wondering if that's one I've missed.

 

He is a dangerous man on one facet, but there are other facets too.  He also can clearly control his need to trump anyone's intelligence and focus on the moment, including the tender scene he shared with Molly at the bottom of the stairs.  He was also gentle with Mary, even when she was about to shoot him.  He's less gentle with John in an overt way....

Men generally are less gentle with each other, don't you think? With each other, they'd rather roughouse and throw verbal jabs, etc. That's how they demonstrate their love for another guy, by jousting with him. It's fun to watch... :D

 

 

Also, his actions in HLV have to be seen in the context of the universe of the series and that code of ethics, rather than by our own. We did already see John, in episode one, killing a dangerous man in less that strictly legal means. Not quite as extreme as HLV, but in the world of Sherlock there seem to be two sides (the angels and the other) and the rules of engagement are not necessarily the same as in our own society.

 

Excellent point, which I would do well to remember ... I tend to take the killing a little too seriously. It helps to be reminded that there's a bit of a fantasy element to Sherlock's world

[bedelia1984]

Arcadia it's this panel at about 19:00 (the comment itself is just after 20:00.

 

Excellent point, which I would do well to remember ... I tend to take the killing a little too seriously. It helps to be reminded that there's a bit of a fantasy element to Sherlock's world

 

 

It's just like you said above this comment, you just want to take care of him- for me, anyway. In the abstract, I see that killing as something he can't ever come back from (which is kind of how BC talks about it in that panel). It's not that I worried about Magnussen for one second, but I did worry for what it would do to Sherlock, to know that he had done this. If you go back earlier in this talk, BC implies that it was almost a moment of childish frustration (at having underestimated an opponent/ lost) that caused him to commit the act, but really I think the motivations were much deeper, and have to be read in the context of the show's ethical world and the narrative.