What about Sherlock's feelings for Molly?

[Carol the Dabbler]

... for those of you who think it is a terrible pairing, I suggest you try writing a little fan faction with them together. It's not always easy, but they work just fine.

I suspect they work the finest for a writer who already thinks they're a good match.  ;)

 

 

[sfmpco]

Although Sherlock bears a few narcissistic traits, he is not by any clinical definition a true narcissist.  One thing trait narcissists share is that they crave attention and think the world revolves around them, but with Sherlock, I don't see that.  In fact, I think at heart he is a loner.  I'm rather surprised he ever agreed to have a roommate in the first place, because I'm not sure it was a financial issue for him.  After all, he had already moved in before having met John at all, so regardless of having met John, he would have managed to pay the rent.  John maybe eased that burden some for him, but even when they were flatmates, they lived very separate lives except when they were working on cases together.  Sherlock pays little attention to John's whereabouts.  He's used to doing everything on his own which is his fallback mode.

 

I know this has been discussed before, but if Molly is aware in S1 that he is attempting to manipulate her and she goes along with it, it isn't really manipulation anymore.  She has a free will and does it.  And by her giving in, she is manipulating him also - by getting to spend time with him, which is what she wants to do.

 

A narcissist has a very difficult time owning up to poor behavior, and while he might play macho about it with John, he doesn't with Molly, and as soon as he realizes his mistake in ASIB, he is quick to apologize, even sealing it with a kiss to the cheek.  Although he's a little dismissive of her in TRF with "What could I possibly need from you?" which he says so coldly (he's very stressed and not really trying to hurt her), she again corrects him that a thank you would be nice, and he does say it although you can see he's not sure why he was saying it, but when he comes around a bit a few moments later to accept her offer of crisps, she blows him off.  They just keep missing each other.  And then he comes back to her for help.  They connect finally, if only on that level.

 

I do think S3 was a game changer between them, however, and I am anxious to see what happens in S4 with them.  There wasn't really any reason for her to break off with Tom if not to free her up for something more.  As long as she carries any torch for him, no one else stands a chance.

[sfmpco]

 

... for those of you who think it is a terrible pairing, I suggest you try writing a little fan faction with them together. It's not always easy, but they work just fine.

I suspect they work the finest for a writer who already thinks they're a good match.  ;)

 

 

 

 

I actually think they're a very bumpy ride match.  Lots of baggage on both sides.

[bedelia1984]

 

  I'm rather surprised he ever agreed to have a roommate in the first place, because I'm not sure it was a financial issue for him.  After all, he had already moved in before having met John at all, so regardless of having met John, he would have managed to pay the rent.  John maybe eased that burden some for him, but even when they were flatmates, they lived very separate lives except when they were working on cases together.  Sherlock pays little attention to John's whereabouts.  He's used to doing everything on his own which is his fallback mode.

 

 

This is an interesting aspect to Sherlock. I do think on some level John provided a sense of security for him- it is harder to go off the rails (drug-wise) if you've got a flatmate around who notices things. And also, on some level, if one had difficulties forming relationships but still felt some need for human contact, a flatmate would fit the bill in the sense of someone who sort of has to put up with you.  The thing about Sherlock is her portrays himself as a loner, but then you get these flashes of all the connections beneath the surface- he use's Molly's place to crash, he has his network, a quite touching level of fondness for Mrs. Hudson, and whilst he can't seem to quite recall Lestrade's name (if its his own private running gag to forget it, I like that too), you still get the sense he values his friendship.

 

You're forgetting Janine.  I think she's definitely got the moxie to handle Sherlock, and I think he recognizes that and respects her for it.

 

 

I'm still quite taken with the idea of Janine Moriarty that's been floating around. Failing that, there is certainly chemistry there- and something about bee-keeping too. But, If Sherlock and her do get involved, I think he should be prepared for some form of payback- he really treated her badly. Though, in a way their dynamic is like Sherlock and Jim, there is a level of game being played, and a mutual enjoyment of that game, that allows for a lot more foul play than in many a 'normal' relationship.

 

ETA: Now that I think on it, if Janine were a Moriarty- that might almost make her more attractive to Sherlock.

[sittything]

Mark Gatiss has said that Sherlock and Molly's relationship is "touching."   And I think that's the thing I love about it.

 

He is so gentle around her (post S1) when he just isn't with so many other people.  He clearly recognizes when he's hurt her.  Obviously this doesn't mean true love, but he's really not as oblivious to others as he'd like people to think.

 

Oops, I done messed up...

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

There wasn't really any reason for her to break off with Tom if not to free her up for something more.

That may well have been part of her motivation, but I doubt it was all of it. If she finally realized that she wasn't actually in love with Tom himself, but rather with his superficial resemblance to Sherlock, that would have been a plenty good enough reason right there, whether she held out any hope of ever hooking up with the real thing or not.

 

And yes, people sometimes really do fall in love, and even decide to marry, just because of a physical resemblance. Many years ago, I was engaged to a man whose prior fiancee had died while he was overseas. When he showed me her photo, I was a bit shocked by her general resemblance to me -- a slender blonde with curly hair and glasses. Then I found out about some of his interim girlfriends -- all tall slender blondes with curly hair and glasses. He actually married the gal right after me (and you guessed it).

 

He'd carried that photo of the dead woman in his wallet all those years. (By contrast, he'd taken several snapshots of me, but never put any in his wallet.) Because she wasn't legally a close relative, the army hadn't allowed him to attend her funeral. I wonder whether that lack of closure might have been at the root of his obsession.

 

Dunno how much of that might apply to Molly, but she's certainly not alone.

[bedelia1984]

 

There wasn't really any reason for her to break off with Tom if not to free her up for something more.

That may well have been part of her motivation, but I doubt it was all of it. If she finally realized that she wasn't actually in love with Tom himself, but rather with his superficial resemblance to Sherlock, that would have been a plenty good enough reason right there, whether she held out any hope of ever hooking up with the real thing or not.

 

 

 

I do kind of hope they partly broke up Molly and Tom so she can do more detecting with Sherlock, guilt free. If John and Mary are tied up in their own drama, there may be some space for a revisit of the Sherlock/ Molly team.

 

And I agree with both of your points, and would also add, after Sherlock has asked you to go for Fish and Chips, how can you even look at another man, let alone marry him? Seems kinda impossible.  ^_^

[sittything]

That's the thing I just don't get.  At all.   They broke Molly and Tom up for a reason.  Otherwise, why not let her be happy with Tom?

[sittything]

Look I'll disown Sherlolly when one of the creators shuts that down, which they haven't.

 

Even Loo said...

 

"Something happened in the last season, and now we no longer laughed at the idea that yes, something could happen between them."

 

I don't think anything will ever happen between Sherlock and anyone, but if it's gonna be anyone, I'd bet on Molly.

[Arcadia]

That's the thing I just don't get.  At all.   They broke Molly and Tom up for a reason.  Otherwise, why not let her be happy with Tom?

Because they're good storytellers! Given her function in the show (the unrequited love), if they'd married her happily off, there wouldn't be much else to do with her. Her scenes with Sherlock have frisson because you know she wants him to love her. Take that away and she could be any random character. I suppose they could make a side story for her, but the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.) Besides, this way they get to torment the Sherlolly shippers some more. :P

 

I'd like to see her do something really ... big. I don't know what, just something that would knock everyone's socks off. And I'd give a lot to see her and Mary double-team the boys. And I'd like to see her short circuit Sherlock's hard drive again. :D

[Carol the Dabbler]

... the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.)

Really? That's what's wrong with that episode? I'd frankly never noticed, but I'm willing to believe your theory (well, that and all the plot holes). Could you give some examples of what you specifically have in mind?

[sfmpco]

 

That's the thing I just don't get.  At all.   They broke Molly and Tom up for a reason.  Otherwise, why not let her be happy with Tom?

Because they're good storytellers! Given her function in the show (the unrequited love), if they'd married her happily off, there wouldn't be much else to do with her. Her scenes with Sherlock have frisson because you know she wants him to love her. Take that away and she could be any random character. I suppose they could make a side story for her, but the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.) Besides, this way they get to torment the Sherlolly shippers some more. :P

 

I'd like to see her do something really ... big. I don't know what, just something that would knock everyone's socks off. And I'd give a lot to see her and Mary double-team the boys. And I'd like to see her short circuit Sherlock's hard drive again. :D

 

 

Quite frankly, I don't think it takes much to short-circuit Sherlock.  Pretty much anything outside of his areas of expertise especially regarding relationships is a cause for short-cicuiting.  I'm sure if he ever had sex, he'd be down for the count.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Eh apparently some of your idea about Sherlock and Molly's relationship is very different with mine.

 

In my mind, Sherlock is not dominating, he also doesn't manipulate Molly, they had passed that. I see the shifting in the way Sherlock views Molly since I see you in TRF, then slap slap in HLV, and TAB, I think he respects her and knows that she actually knows and understands him a lot better than he thought.

 

So, if they get together, it's not Sherlock Molly SIP anymore, or anything that had been shown, I think it's Sherlock 'surrenders'. He would show Molly who he actually is, without all the attributes and exoskeleton he wears like when he is around other people.

 

And Molly would also 'run' it, or at least equal, she would tell Sherlock to have proper meals and he would listen to her, and he wouldn't mind curling into puppy position and purr, waiting for pancake.

 

To put it simply, I see Sherlock turning into 'normal', normal relationship (which is why I thought their relationship won't happen). He'd be nice, adorable and tame because he finds home.

On the other hand, someone like Irene would totally push him to another direction, I think he would never be able to shed his shell, in fact he would grow more shell. They would be so competitive they'd destroy each other.

 

 

... the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.)

Really? That's what's wrong with that episode? I'd frankly never noticed, but I'm willing to believe your theory (well, that and all the plot holes). Could you give some examples of what you specifically have in mind?

Maybe not the missing of Sherlock and John but the presence of General Shan? XD

[Arcadia]

 

... the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.)

Really? That's what's wrong with that episode? I'd frankly never noticed, but I'm willing to believe your theory (well, that and all the plot holes). Could you give some examples of what you specifically have in mind?

 

 

Sure.

 

Now of course, this is just me, but .... I think ASIP drags through the introductory matter, from the credits until John reappears in the park.

 

Banker's worse ...  It starts with Soo Lin, who turns out to be brave, but otherwise has a colorless personality. Once again John comes to the rescue by arguing with the chip and pin, then the story zips along nicely for a while. Lots of sass and laughs. Either Sherlock or John or both are on screen during this entire section. A little pause for the sweet but equally colorless Andy, then some more fun with the boys, then ... gah, more Andy! Then more banter and snark, Sherlock gets strangled (!) the great bit with John showing up Sherlock by taking a picture of the lettering, the clues are starting to fold together .... and the momentum screeches to a halt so we can listen to Soo Lin slllllllowwwwwwly reveal the secret. Okay, so the boys are on screen during this, but she holds the floor. I'm surprised Sherlock didn't grab her and shake her.

 

Then we're okay for awhile, until we get to the Chinese Circus of Tedium. We have to listen to Shan (also a slow speaker) drone some nonsense, there's a truly monotonous escape trick ... again, the boys are there, but not active. Not driving the story. Then some fun bits .... and so it goes. The parts featuring the boys are funny, fast and snarky, everything else just slogs along, because the characters aren't interesting. No quirks, no color, definitely no funny lines. (To be fair, both Raz and Sarah are great. Dimmock's just a sterotype, but it works because he's always playing off the rambunctious Sherlock.) It even ends with Shan, of all people ... someone we have no reason to give a hoot about. Go ahead and kill her, mysterious stranger, see if I care.

 

Hounds has a similar problem ... Henry's quirky enough, I rather like him, but again, no funny lines, and the scenes with him alone struggle to maintain momentum. Who cares if he's going crazy, let's find out what nonsense Sherlock has gotten up to now!

 

Or so I thinks. Maybe I just have a short attention span. Or an obsession with The Coat.

[sittything]

 

 

That's the thing I just don't get.  At all.   They broke Molly and Tom up for a reason.  Otherwise, why not let her be happy with Tom?

Because they're good storytellers! Given her function in the show (the unrequited love), if they'd married her happily off, there wouldn't be much else to do with her. Her scenes with Sherlock have frisson because you know she wants him to love her. Take that away and she could be any random character. I suppose they could make a side story for her, but the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.) Besides, this way they get to torment the Sherlolly shippers some more. :P

 

I'd like to see her do something really ... big. I don't know what, just something that would knock everyone's socks off. And I'd give a lot to see her and Mary double-team the boys. And I'd like to see her short circuit Sherlock's hard drive again. :D

 

 

Quite frankly, I don't think it takes much to short-circuit Sherlock.  Pretty much anything outside of his areas of expertise especially regarding relationships is a cause for short-cicuiting.  I'm sure if he ever had sex, he'd be down for the count.

 

 

I keep reading this and cracking up.

[sittything]

 

That's the thing I just don't get.  At all.   They broke Molly and Tom up for a reason.  Otherwise, why not let her be happy with Tom?

Because they're good storytellers! Given her function in the show (the unrequited love), if they'd married her happily off, there wouldn't be much else to do with her. Her scenes with Sherlock have frisson because you know she wants him to love her. Take that away and she could be any random character. I suppose they could make a side story for her, but the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.) Besides, this way they get to torment the Sherlolly shippers some more. :P

 

I'd like to see her do something really ... big. I don't know what, just something that would knock everyone's socks off. And I'd give a lot to see her and Mary double-team the boys. And I'd like to see her short circuit Sherlock's hard drive again. :D

 

 

So basically, they're keeping her single to torture me, and her, with the prospect of a Sherlock/Molly relationship that isn't happening.  lol   Rude.

[Arcadia]

You got it, kid!

[J.P.]

Maybe you should write to Mofftiss and DEMAND that it happens. And that in S4 already. The heteros are feeling left out!

[sittything]

Maybe you should write to Mofftiss and DEMAND that it happens. And that in S4 already. The heteros are feeling left out!

 

Too much work.  Maybe I'll just tweet Mark that if it doesn't happen in S4 I'm gonna die.  Then he can tweet back RIP.  <3

[sfmpco]

 

Maybe you should write to Mofftiss and DEMAND that it happens. And that in S4 already. The heteros are feeling left out!

 

Too much work.  Maybe I'll just tweet Mark that if it doesn't happen in S4 I'm gonna die.  Then he can tweet back RIP.  <3

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... the show always slows down if either John or Sherlock isn't on screen (I'm looking at you, Blind Banker.)

Really? That's what's wrong with that episode? I'd frankly never noticed, but I'm willing to believe your theory (well, that and all the plot holes). Could you give some examples of what you specifically have in mind?

 

Sure.

 

Now of course, this is just me, but .... I think ASIP drags through the introductory matter, from the credits until John reappears in the park.

 

Banker's worse ...  It starts with Soo Lin, who turns out to be brave, but otherwise has a colorless personality. Once again John comes to the rescue by arguing with the chip and pin, then the story zips along nicely for a while. Lots of sass and laughs. Either Sherlock or John or both are on screen during this entire section. A little pause for the sweet but equally colorless Andy, then some more fun with the boys, then ... gah, more Andy! Then more banter and snark, Sherlock gets strangled (!) the great bit with John showing up Sherlock by taking a picture of the lettering, the clues are starting to fold together .... and the momentum screeches to a halt so we can listen to Soo Lin slllllllowwwwwwly reveal the secret. Okay, so the boys are on screen during this, but she holds the floor. I'm surprised Sherlock didn't grab her and shake her.

 

Then we're okay for awhile, until we get to the Chinese Circus of Tedium. We have to listen to Shan (also a slow speaker) drone some nonsense, there's a truly monotonous escape trick ... again, the boys are there, but not active. Not driving the story. Then some fun bits .... and so it goes. The parts featuring the boys are funny, fast and snarky, everything else just slogs along, because the characters aren't interesting. No quirks, no color, definitely no funny lines. (To be fair, both Raz and Sarah are great. Dimmock's just a sterotype, but it works because he's always playing off the rambunctious Sherlock.) It even ends with Shan, of all people ... someone we have no reason to give a hoot about. Go ahead and kill her, mysterious stranger, see if I care.

 

Hounds has a similar problem ... Henry's quirky enough, I rather like him, but again, no funny lines, and the scenes with him alone struggle to maintain momentum. Who cares if he's going crazy, let's find out what nonsense Sherlock has gotten up to now!

 

Or so I thinks. Maybe I just have a short attention span. Or an obsession with The Coat.

 

 

Hmm, I must admit that you have a point there.  (I do like Andy, but other than that....)  There is just something different about TBB, and I suspect that the plot holes and the dragginess are both merely symptoms of an overlying problem.

 

Come to think of it, it's got a lot in common with Star Trek: The Motionless Picture.  Both have a kinda thrown-together feel to them, despite some fancy bells & whistles.  Maybe Moftiss put all their energies into working out the (admittedly nicely done) plots for ASiP and TGG, and so didn't have the outline ready for Thompson till the last minute?

[Arcadia]

Star Trek: The Motionless Picture. I hadn't heard that one before!
 
But yeah, good comparison; too much time spent on bland characters that we have no reason to care about, when you have a whole cast of beloved figures standing by just waiting for a line. It might have been a decent story, but it wasn't good storytelling.
 
Maybe Thompson didn't get an outline? "Here, go write a Sherlock script. Have fun."
 
I think another problem with TBB is that it's stylistically different ... the Chinatown setting and the exotic villains make it seem more like a campy old Charlie Chan movie than what we now know as Sherlock. I just think they hadn't quite finalized their direction yet.
 
From what I've read, McGuigan was a huge influence on the feel of the show too, and they didn't have him around for Banker. Four in a row with one director, with one in the middle by someone else ... it wouldn't be surprising if that one stood out. It just stood out the wrong way!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Star Trek: The Motionless Picture. I hadn't heard that one before!

 

Actually, the full title (according to a fellow I knew in Iowa) was Star Trek: The Motionless Picture -- Where Nomad Has Gone Before.

 

From what I've read, McGuigan was a huge influence on the feel of the show too, and they didn't have him around for Banker. Four in a row with one director, with one in the middle by someone else ... it wouldn't be surprising if that one stood out. It just stood out the wrong way!

Oh, now that's a point -- sort of like that one Harry Potter movie (the one with the shrunken head -- OK, had to look it up, Prisoner of Azkaban).  But I dunno, seems like it'd be kinda hard for a director to introduce plot holes and sidetrack major characters.

 

[LadyCumberBunny]

The Blind Banker is probably my least favorite episode...closely followed by Hounds of Baskerville. I just feel as if neither one really contributes to the overall story arc. In SIP, it introduces everyone and then ends with the mention of Moriarty. Then TBB has a kind of put in at the last minute scene at the end with the general talking to Moriarty. In TGG we see and hear a lot more from Moriarty. In ASIB Irene is working WITH Moriarty. But there is barely a throw away mention of him THB, just the small bit where Sherlock sees him in his altered state on the moor. Then it's back to all the Moriarty action in TRF. So, like I said, I feel like TBB and THB do nothing to add the the overall story arc. The only reason I like THB just a wee bit more than TBB is because it's adapted from one of my favorite original Doyle stories of Holmes.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I think that's a common analysis around here. For whatever reason, TBB and Hounds just don't work as well as the others. But hey, something has to occupy the bottom spots! :d