The Hobbit (the Jackson films)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Reading your reviews I feel a bit... odd. Because my main complaint about this film is that there was not a single scene that moved me emotionally.

Although I did cry over some of the sad scenes, more of my tears were probably for nostalgia -- end of an era, farewell to Middle Earth, goodbye to Bilbo Baggins, etc. Also,

 

 

... I think I felt sadder for Bilbo losing Thorin than I did for Thorin himself.

 

 

Something I've been pondering on today:

 

Did any of the dwarves except for Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin and Dwalin have a single line in the movie? I can't remember any, but then I've only seen it once and may just have forgotten their lines?

 

Yes, I'm reasonably certain that they did.

 

 

I seem to recall Nori saying something, and also Bofur.

 

But (having seen the movie only once myself) I can't say for sure, and I can't actually quote any of them.

 

And I was sad that there was no post-credit-scene. Somehow I was sure there would be some short message from Peter Jackson.

I think Jackson intended for the closing-credit song by Billy Boyd to serve that purpose.

 

Well, all in all I think the film is okay, definitely better than the second one but I think it could have been better than it was.

Well, they could all have been better, as in "more like I was hoping they'd be." But on the other hand, some parts were better than I would have come up with myself. And hopefully everything was just the way Peter Jackson was hoping it'd turn out. Besides, I still have hopes for the extended cut.

[Schlauer Fuchs]

 

I think Jackson intended for the closing-credit song by Billy Boyd to serve that purpose.

 

You're probably right. And it's beautiful. But still... *stubborn* ;)

 

 

 

Well, they could all have been better, as in "more like I was hoping they'd be." But on the other hand, some parts were better than I would have come up with myself.

 

 

very true! I do feel a bit guilty to complain about the film not being as good as it could have been because I could never do any film that people'd want to see. Actually when I wrote that complaint in my last post I had also written that I, as an amateur, have hardly any right to say something could have been done better when I couldn't to it half as well as PJ has done. But I obviously deleted that part because I still think it's true that PJ could have done it better. *even more stubborn*

 

Hmm, I'm feeling so self-conscious about me being German when I read my posts that seem to contain nothing but criticism and complaint. So let me say this: I thought Thranduil was awesome in this film. I didn't really like him in the second film (I was constantly overly aware of his undyed eyebrows ), but he as a character convinced me in this one. Man, what an elf  :P

[T.o.b.y]

Hmm, I'm feeling so self-conscious about me being German when I read my posts that seem to contain nothing but criticism and complaint. So let me say this: I thought Thranduil was awesome in this film. I didn't really like him in the second film (I was constantly overly aware of his undyed eyebrows ), but he as a character convinced me in this one. Man, what an elf  :P

 

Awww...

 

But honestly, how does being German play a role here? You went to see a film and didn't like it as well as you expected to or as you have liked other works by the same creator. So? Why feel bad about criticizing it? Films and books and so on are made to entertain, and just because we couldn't produce anything anyone would pay to be exposed to, that does not mean we have to enjoy everything on the market, do we? (Please, please, please do not tell me I have to like Shades of Grey and Transformers...)

 

Maybe it's just my German blood coming through as well, but I love to complain. And I certainly did not like the two Hobbit films I saw half as much as Lord of the Rings. So there.

 

Also, what you're saying is not necessarily that anyone's work is bad, just that you don't like it. That's fine! At least I think that's fine...

[Schlauer Fuchs]

 

But honestly, how does being German play a role here? You went to see a film and didn't like it as well as you expected to or as you have liked other works by the same creator. So? Why feel bad about criticizing it? Films and books and so on are made to entertain, and just because we couldn't produce anything anyone would pay to be exposed to, that does not mean we have to enjoy everything on the market, do we?

 

This is funny because I chose to delete my comment in my first "review" here exactly because I agree that I as part of the audience am entitled to criticise a film that I see even though I couldn't do it better myself :D  Carol and you just reproduced my train of thoughts perfectly in your replies :D

 

 

Maybe it's just my German blood coming through as well, but I love to complain.

 

That made me slap my thighs :lol:  Yeah, it's just so typical for Germans to complain about everything and stress the negative side of things rather than the positive. Well, other people do it as well, yet complaining seems to be a traditional German virtue and I sometimes think I should try to more stress the positive aspects of things. Which isn't easy for me. I'm afraid I really focus on negative aspects a lot.

 

But sorry, I didn't plan to kick off a discussion on national stereotypes!

 

 

Oh, and no, you don't have to like either Shades of Grey nor Transformers, I'm glad there are other people who don't!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I thought Thranduil was awesome in this film. I didn't really like him in the second film (I was constantly overly aware of his undyed eyebrows ), but he as a character convinced me in this one. Man, what an elf  :P

I liked him better this time as well -- he seemed more real, whereas in the first two films I didn't get much sense of Thranduil as a person.

 

Were those Lee Pace's natural eyebrows? Somehow it came across (to me) more like Thranduil's eyebrows were dyed black, despite his hair being blond -- though I'm fully aware that Pace himself is not a blond. If it's any help to you, I'll point out that my father was a towhead (very pale blond) as a kid, but as he grew up, his hair got much darker, almost black -- except for his eyebrows, which remained almost white. Sort of an anti-Thanduil!

 

Maybe it's just my German blood coming through as well, but I love to complain.

 

That made me slap my thighs :lol:  Yeah, it's just so typical for Germans to complain about everything and stress the negative side of things rather than the positive. Well, other people do it as well, yet complaining seems to be a traditional German virtue....

Funny, but that's one thing I've noticed about a German woman I knew a few years ago -- she criticizes just about everything! (But of course she's always on time.  ;)  )

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

In the interest of stirring up a little trouble, what do y'all think of this review?

 

[Arcadia]

You know another hobbit movie's been released when:

[Arcadia]

In the interest of stirring up a little trouble, what do y'all think of this review?

Haven't seen 3 yet, but since that's pretty much the way I felt about the first two, I don't expect the 3rd to be much different. That won't stop me from seeing it, tho!

[Schlauer Fuchs]

In the interest of stirring up a little trouble, what do y'all think of this review?

 

I agree with it. Only that I think it shouldn't have been one, but two movies. That would have allowed for some more character development and a reasonably fast and reasonably slow pace of narration.

 

Thorin's character development was one of the big issues I had with this movie. It didn't convince me at all but pretty much destroyed what they had made of this character before.

 

Especially how he finally overcame the dragon sickness wasn't convincing at all. There was no real impetus for him to fight it just then, at least I didn't think Dwalin's speech was more touching/convincing/whatever than Bilbo's attempt earlier in the story. So for me it was like out of a sudden he realised that he'd literally drown in his gold if he kept moving on like that, and so he decided to cast off the sickness. Far too easy and arbitrary. It didn't reestablish the great and honourable dwarf leader they had shown us in the first two movies. That's probably one of the reasons why I didn't care much about his death in the end. The Thorin I would have cared about had died off camera long before he was pierced.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I can tell I'm easier to please as I loved the movie and thought it was fine. I suppose there could have been some character development of Thorin in regards to his getting over the dragon sickness as well as with Bilbo and continuing his development some more.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree with it. Only that I think it shouldn't have been one, but two movies. That would have allowed for some more character development and a reasonably fast and reasonably slow pace of narration.

That sounds about right to me. Unfortunately, if it had been just two, I suspect there would've been just as much time spent on Orcs, Wargs, and gymnastic Elves -- leaving less time for less important characters like Dwarves and that pesky Hobbit.

 

In all fairness, though, Jackson actually did introduce a good bit more character development than there was in the book. That review complained that the Orcs had no motivation to join with Sauron, but that's straight from Tolkien, whereas Jackson introduced the feud between Thorin and Azog. And he gave the dwarves individual personalities.

 

I can tell I'm easier to please as I loved the movie and thought it was fine. I suppose there could have been some character development of Thorin in regards to his getting over the dragon sickness as well as with Bilbo and continuing his development some more.

I liked it too, though I suppose part of that was simply relief that it was more coherent and truer to the book than the second movie.

 

I would have liked to see a bit more of Bilbo's return to the Shire -- but I've got another year to hope there'll be some of that in the extended cut.

 

Speaking of which, does anyone have an explanation for

 

 

... the mention of Fatty Bolger? I doubt that Merry & Pippen's friend had even been born yet. I do know a woman who inherited a nickname from her grandmother, though, so maybe the "Fatty" mentioned here is the other one's grandpa?

 

[sherlockandjohn]

I really enjoyed the first Hobbit movie, thought the second one was mostly boring, and now was satisfied - and touched - by the final film.

 

 

Thorin's character development was one of the big issues I had with this movie. It didn't convince me at all but pretty much destroyed what they had made of this character before.

 

Especially how he finally overcame the dragon sickness wasn't convincing at all. There was no real impetus for him to fight it just then, at least I didn't think Dwalin's speech was more touching/convincing/whatever than Bilbo's attempt earlier in the story. So for me it was like out of a sudden he realised that he'd literally drown in his gold if he kept moving on like that, and so he decided to cast off the sickness. Far too easy and arbitrary. It didn't reestablish the great and honourable dwarf leader they had shown us in the first two movies. That's probably one of the reasons why I didn't care much about his death in the end. The Thorin I would have cared about had died off camera long before he was pierced.

 

 

 

I kind of felt the same way about that scene. It was just a very sudden change. However...

I was still moved by the whole conflict between Thorin and Bilbo and between Thorin and the dwarfs.

As inconvincing as this particular scene may be, I still feel there is much more character development in this film than the second one. Although, I may need to watch DoS again sometime... I've only seen it once, and don't remember much of it.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

In my experience (and Alex's) the second movie does improve with rewatching.  Also, you might want to get the Extended Edition DVD.  We think that cut is an improvement over the theatrical cut -- not a huge improvement, but helpful in certain places.  And the commentary is also helpful in understanding why they did certain things different from the book -- in some cases, we even agree with them!

 

[Schlauer Fuchs]

In my experience (and Alex's) the second movie does improve with rewatching.  Also, you might want to get the Extended Edition DVD.  We think that cut is an improvement over the theatrical cut -- not a huge improvement, but helpful in certain places.  And the commentary is also helpful in understanding why they did certain things different from the book -- in some cases, we even agree with them!

 

I agree, the movie did improve with rewatching for me. And the extended cut is on my wishlist for Christmas I liked the extended scenes that you can see on youtube, but I'm looking forward to seeing them as part of the movie!!

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think my initial disappointment with Desolation had two reasons -- too much Legolas and too little of the book.  I'm still of the opinion that Legolas belongs in LotR (with optional cameos in the Hobbit films), but after hearing Jackson's rationale (in the commentary) for the plot changes, I think most of his decisions were sound.  And as for the gold statue, he says that was a last-minute-rush idea, so at least I can see WHY they made such a stupid decision.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I need to watch the first 2 with commentaries on.  Maybe next week after I get through my Sherlock marathon.

[Arcadia]

In all fairness, though, Jackson actually did introduce a good bit more character development than there was in the book. That review complained that the Orcs had no motivation to join with Sauron, but that's straight from Tolkien, whereas Jackson introduced the feud between Thorin and Azog. And he gave the dwarves individual personalities.

That didn't actually make sense to me. Unless I'm misremembering, Sauron created the orcs and I don't think there's any choosing to be had. They're his creatures, pure and simple.

 

There is something about Thorin and the orc who killed his grandfather in the appendices, I believe, but I can't remember the specifics. If I weren't so lazy at the moment I'd go and look it up.

 

.......does anyone have an explanation for

 

... the mention of Fatty Bolger? I doubt that Merry & Pippen's friend had even been born yet. I do know a woman who inherited a nickname from her grandmother, though, so maybe the "Fatty" mentioned here is the other one's grandpa?

 

I would look up said character's family tree and try to figure it out. However, see aforementioned laziness.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

During or shortly after the battle where Thorin's grandfather is killed, Thorin (if I remember correctly it was him & not his dad) was able to take off Azog's arm while attempting to take out Azog.

[Carol the Dabbler]

In all fairness, though, Jackson actually did introduce a good bit more character development than there was in the book. That review complained that the Orcs had no motivation to join with Sauron, but that's straight from Tolkien, whereas Jackson introduced the feud between Thorin and Azog....

That didn't actually make sense to me. Unless I'm misremembering, Sauron created the orcs and I don't think there's any choosing to be had. They're his creatures, pure and simple.

I remember that from the LotR movies, but not from the books (which I just re-read) -- but that could be simply because the movie is so much more graphic about the creation of the Orcs.

 

That part of the movie raises several questions in my fevered imagination:

 

1. Are there female orcs?

2. If so, can orcs procreate?

3. If not, why do they have bulges in their crotches?

[Arcadia]

Okay, here's the poop on Azog:

 

First, I haven't seen TBot5A yet, so I don't know what Peter Jackson's done with him. But in the appendices, Azog the Orc killed Thorin's grandfather, earning the hatred of all dwarves, so PJ didn't exactly create the feud. However, it was Dain, Thorin's cousin, who killed Azog, at Moria, long before The Hobbit. The chief orc at TBot5A was Bolg, Azog's son. (Who was killed by Beorn of all people.) I'm assuming things go a little differently in PJ's version, but there is some basis for it, at least.

 

And there's the answer to your questions above, Carol; yes, orcs can procreate! Although Tolkien didn't elaborate on the, er, process; for all we know it was asexual reproduction. And the orcs we saw being "born" in Two Towers were Saruman's perversions; he may have come up with a different process.

 

Okay, now to research family trees....

[Arcadia]

.......does anyone have an explanation for

 

... the mention of Fatty Bolger? I doubt that Merry & Pippen's friend had even been born yet. I do know a woman who inherited a nickname from her grandmother, though, so maybe the "Fatty" mentioned here is the other one's grandpa?

 

 

Okay, the only likely possibility I can find is

a Fastolph Bolger, who was Bilbo's granduncle by marriage on his father's side. Our Fatty (Frodo's friend) is only indirectly related.

In other words, nope, I don't have an explanation.  But given a typical hobbit's propensities, I imagine that nickname is rather common.......

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Further to orc creation, that last I remember they were at one time at least part elf so that would further allow for a female version of them and also explain the bulge.

[Arcadia]

To be specific, they were elves that had been "corrupted." Then they were men who had been corrupted. Then some other mutant beast ... Tolkien himself could never quite decide!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Was Tolkien trying to pull a Sir ACD on his readers?

[Tunguska]

To be honest, never having read any of the Tolkien books (well, I gave Fellowship a try but disliked it), I really did not like Bilbo in LotR. I thought he was unpleasantly unhinged and did not feel any sympathy for him. It took me the Hobbit films to realize he is probably the coolest person in Middle Earth - clever, adventurous, kind and with great moral standards. Also, I only just realized how incredibly strong he is. He may have become a bit unhinged by the time of LotR but the ring actually seems to have had very little power over him compared to others - even when compared to other Hobbits. Frodo was losing it after just a few months and don't get me started on Gollum. Bilbo was mostly just distracted and had DemonFace once.

 

It also makes me feel sad. After all that adventure, he gets such a huge burden to carry with him for the rest of his life and he does so quietly and nobody gives him any credit for it.