Is John really Sherlock's best friend?

[Inge l-w]

She is Jeannette, the boring schoolteacher, and another initial J, by the way, process of elimination, dear Toby.

And the answer to your question is a definite NO! She plants the seeds of that proposal in John's head, who, like most men will not suspect ulterior motive on her part. She dragoons the bereft genius into actually planning the wedding, when at the end of TEH he has explicitly stated : "Weddings, not really my thing" and she sits there all smug and smiling putting him through the refined torture of the best man speech, after having first aroused whatever little emotion he is capable of feeling with her neat little trick in her conversation with him about Major Sholto and slyly pointing out that "neither of us was the first, you know"! Why not put him in that ancient Chinese torture device of meshed wire and remove his skin inch by painful inch, instead? It might have been kinder!

SherlockedCamper just showed me a neat little trick, so there goes, for you, and J.P. and Zain and Carol and Caya, and Arcadia and Jenny, and all the rest who have put up with my own brand of snarkiness without complaint !

[Carol the Dabbler]

... the creators have chosen to show the good doctor as an egotistical, petty-minded, unforgiving, uninteresting little man, thus not only parodying the very core of the Holmes-Watson duality, but also (up to now) driving a divisive wedge between them in Mary ( a scheming, ruthless former agent) and the putative baby.

Well, Inge, that's about 180 degrees from my view of the situation, so it looks like our only reasonable option is to agree to disagree! I suspect that you watch the show with certain expectations already in place, some of which are not met; whereas I watch the show and then interpret it in such a way that I can continue to enjoy it. Both techniques are perfectly valid, I think, but they can lead to seriously incompatible results!

 

Thank you for the big hug in your other post!  I've just had an "interesting" couple of days in real life, and currently have some pressing considerations at home (meaning I will probably not have much time to spend on the forum), so your virtual warmth is very much appreciated!

 

:lol: You really think John puts up with Sherlock rather than finding himself a nice steady girlfriend and moving out in series 1 and 2 just because of duty? No way. He's a good man, agreed, but not that selfless. Part of the problem of course is Mycroft, who threatened / pressured John into staying with Sherlock on Christmas eve and search the flat for drugs instead if going out with whatsherface (see, even I forgot her name), and another part is that John can't even remember whether the woman has a dog or whether that was his last affair.

I think John's problem in that area is actually two problems -- he tries to have meaningful romantic relationships AND give Sherlock the attention he needs/demands, but there's only one of him -- and that's just the first problem, with the other being that he's not very good at finding women he's actually compatible with. I kind of agreed with Sherlock's analysis of Jeanette, frankly. John needs someone livelier (not necessarily more dangerous), like Sarah or Mary. Wish we knew why Sarah dumped John, but I suppose we never will. And I kinda suspect that Mary found John, in some sense, and I suspect/hope we will learn more about that. I've met several men like that -- they're really nice, interesting guys, but they just don't have a clue how to meet women, and even if they do happen meet a woman they like, they are clueless about realizing that she likes them back. (I don't expect you to agree with me, of course!)

 

What he does not show is forgiveness and a sense of relief that after all his grief was pointless.

 

I think that does come across a bit in The Sign of Three, though. Sherlock isn't a very ideal choice for a best man, but it's really important to John to officially recognize the fact that he is his best friend and to give him a defined place in his and Mary's life. You wouldn't take so much pains to show someone you haven't forgiven at all and are not happy to have around that you love them, would you?

I sure wouldn't!

[sherlockandjohn]

 

The sad (?) truth is, at least in my humble opinion, that sex aside there is nothing the women John used to go out with could offer him that beat being back on the battlefield with Sherlock. Mary is the first person to show up who is just as extraordinary, just as dangerous, unpredictable and mysterious as Sherlock, and she has the added advantage of being sexy and loving. Mary is perfect for John, not in spite but because of her past and her double identity and all that mess.

 

What bothers me about that is that we're never shown this 'dangerous' Mary until His Last Vow - and then suddenly we're expected to believe that John (subconsciously) saw that in her all along. I get why he would fall for that side of her, but how do we know that's what he actually saw? Maybe he just fell for her because she is smart, loving and funny, which is what I see in The Empty Hearse and in The Sign of Three. There's a bit of mystery about her, sure, but that doesn't equal danger. No, in my opinion, Moffat wanted a huge drama, so he created it, manipulating a bit with John's character in His Last Vow. Look at how he set John up from his first scene: John wakes up from a dream about the battlefield and about Sherlock. Then John goes off on a hunt for his neighbour's son and sprains the arm of a drug addict, presumably because he's in need of some dangerous action. Finally, he's fighting his desire to go with Sherlock on the Magnussen case - since when has John ever fought his desire to go along with Sherlock? He simply follows whereever Sherlock goes, without even being asked. Moffat is completely setting John up here for us to believe that he is desparately craving danger, so that we'll believe that was why he chose Mary in the first place. Of course Moffat is in his complete right to do so. They're his characters - sort of. And it's not that John loving danger is a surprise to me, but it's taken to a bit of an extreme in His Last Vow. However, I've come to think of it as clever interpretation and development of John's character. Not what I would have done, since it's all a bit too sad for my taste, but there it is.

[J.P.]

For me both interpretations of Mary's behavior are equally valid. She might just fit into the relationship, or is just being super-clever and manipulative. I hope we get to know more about it in S4.

 

My impression was that Sherlock and Mary for some reason clicked from the first moment. It might be that Mary knows with whom she has to do, because John and others have said her much about Sherlock. And Sherlock is intrigued by her "friendly" reaction to his little spectacle in the restaurant, and by something he can't (or don't want to) deduce about her. Which is a little bit similar to his first encounter with Irene.

 

As he says about weddings being not his area, he actually smiles at Mary, at least to me it's like he is saying: I hate weddings, but I might make an exception for you.

 

Oh, yes, don't forget that Sherlock was not around when Mary appeared in John's life. Their relationship was already established and she was confident enough not to feel like fighting with Sherlock for John's attention as he showed up.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

It is quite possible that there were subtle signs of Mary's dark side that John would have seen before TEH that we were not privy to & then Sherlock's whole see but not observe might also apply.

[sittything]

I really want to do a rewatch soon, especially of Season 3, to see how I feel about Mary.  But then with the X-Files revival I feel the need to watch all 202 episodes of that.  Too bad TV watching is not a paying gig.  lol

[Inge l-w]

I really, really loathe watching HLV, it makes my hackles rise, my senses go numb with disbelief, but no one can get past the fact that when Sherlock confronts Mary in Leinster Gardens and asks: "How good a shot are you?" she proceeds to take her gun out and asks very matter-of-fact : "How badly do you want to find out?". If at first you don't succeed, try, try again, Mary dear! He parries her threat by reminding her about his body being found in a building with her face plastered on its facade. Nice work, a real life partner for Dr Watson the thrill-seeker!

How much more of a blind spot can a genius develop in his desperation to keep all parties satisfied and lose neither his mind nor his life in the process?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

How much more of a blind spot can a genius develop in his desperation to keep all parties satisfied and lose neither his mind nor his life in the process?

 

Knowing Sherlock as we do, he could develop a big one because he admits to not understanding human nature.  It would be a bit not good to do that, but since when is Sherlock an angel?

[Inge l-w]

On the side of the angels, yes, he admits to that to Moriarity, but one OF them, never, neither in the stories nor in the various films or series! I just added some premises concerning the Moffat interview, by the way, when you have time, check them out and comment on them, please, !

[sfmpco]

Please remember, these are NOT the stories.  This are not detective stories.  These are stories about a detective.  It is unfair to compare apples with oranges.  These episodes are not based on the stories even.  Take them for only what they are and do not hold them up to canon else you will forever, forever, forever be disappointed.

[Inge l-w]

Dear sfmpco, I DO remember, in fact I posted something similar on another thread. Both creators have explained that the series are about a detective and his growing family of friends, but in what universe is the definition of your 'best friend's ' wife that she should threaten your life with a taunt like Mary's in Leinster Gardens, for the second time in a week?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Like the rest of the episode, there are a number of possible interpretations for "How badly do you want to find out?"

 

In addition to a very literal interpretation, I think the one that's best supported by what we've seen of Mary is that she's attempting a bit of dry humor.  We've seen her crack a dry / "inappropriate" joke in a tense situation before, namely "Yes, I am the best thing that's ever happened to you."  That seems to be her way of trying to ease the tension (though it doesn't necessarily work any better for her than it does for me).

 

[sherlockandjohn]

True, there could be other interpretations of the sentence, "How badly do you want to find out?", but I must say that the one seeming most obvious is that Mary was threatening Sherlock. Whether she would have acted on that threat is another matter entirely! I suppose there is an argument that she would, based on her saying, "There is nothing in this world I would not do to stop that happening" (that being John finding out about her). However, Mary could also be saying it to intimidate Sherlock, hoping that she can make him listen. She doesn't get the chance, of course, because John already knows, but there is no knowing how that scene would have played out. Would Mary have tried to bargain with Sherlock, somehow? Would she have threatened him on his life, and if so, does that mean she doesn't care at all for Sherlock? I cannot believe that she doesn't care about him. So many things happen in series 3 that prove the opposite, as far as I can see. There has to be another explanation, and my interpretation is that Mary is scared to death to lose the life she has built. It must have been really difficult to lie about her entire past and live in fear of discovery (we know that Magnussen was a real threat for a while, though we don't know how long). She was trying to have a life again, a husband, a child... and if John was to find out about her past, she risked losing everything. With Magnussen knowing the truth, she was so close to see her life fall apart, even go to prison for life. When Sherlock walked in on Mary in Magnussen's office, she couldn't kill Magnussen, and so she continued to live in fear and danger. I don't believe she ever meant Sherlock any harm, but she must have been getting really desparate. I feel for her. I absolutely don't agree with her actions, but I think I understand them. I think she was hoping that Sherlock would listen, and if he hadn't, she might - and I emphasize might - have killed him, but I don't even think Mary herself knew if she was willing to go that far. The first time she risked his life, she still tried to save him. She didn't want him to die, but she risked it to keep from losing the life she had fought to build.

 

That I understand Mary's reasons for threatening Sherlock doesn't make me love the episode completely, because there are still things I feel could have been done better. I don't find the 'surgery' explanation believable. I wish John had reacted more on Mary shooting Sherlock, not just on her having lied about her past. I would have liked to see Mary show remorse after Sherlock had shot Magnussen. However, the first one I can buy, simply because the writer apparently is serious about it. The second and third I can imagine having happened 'behind the scenes', so to speak. But - as I keep repeating - it's taken me a long time to accept these events. I'm not even sure that I have, entirely. I really do understand those who dislike the episode.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Carol, I tend to agree with Sherlockandjohn's viewpoint, because the answer Sherlock himself gives her is definitely not indicative of an attempt at anything but an implied threat. By this point in the story, he has garnered enough information about her to floodlight the entire facade with one of her wedding pictures (one may question his motives for choosing a photograph of what should have been the happiest day in her life, since it certainly was not a happy occasion for him) as an insurance device, which is exactly what he tells her,

"Even Scotland Yard should be able to make something of it," is not an attempt at humour on his part.

However, I cannot see a trained assassin react as anything else but what she truly is, therefore, the whole facade thing could be his way of letting her know that the blind spot is gone and he now knows her for what she really is, but such is his abnegation that he will take her case, even though he knows she is faking EVERYTHING.

[T.o.b.y]

 I don't find the 'surgery' explanation believable. I wish John had reacted more on Mary shooting Sherlock, not just on her having lied about her past.

 

I got the impression that this is true for many people who watched series 3 and were a bit uncomfortable with it. Heck, in some cases I think the whole reason why some were dissatisfied is how John reacts to the shooting - or rather how he is shown reacting.

 

This is one of those instances where we actually were not shown something rather important for the characters. We never saw or heard the conversation where Sherlock tells John who shot him. Assuming there was one, of course. Theoretically, Sherlock could have just ordered John to come to the empty house, sit in the wheelchair and wait and see. But he put the perfume on the table. John got a very big hint before he even arrived at Leinster Gardens. So by the time the confrontation there has taken place and they go to Baker St to talk, the news that Mary was the shooter is older than the news that Mary doesn't actually exist and he has married a complete stranger with a more than shady past who sold him a big fat lie and whom he can't just unlove now and besides, she's pregnant with his child, goddammit. Naturally, the latter takes precedence over the former now, especially since Sherlock does his best to excuse Mary's bullet ending up in his chest.

 

But the fact remains that our fannish little hearts, many of which have been feeding on sometimes extremely sentimental fan fiction between series, were led to expect some kind of emotional (b)romantic scene that we never got. The same was true with the fire - we never saw how John reacted when he came to and realized that Sherlock had pulled him out either. And when he was shown that scene at Magnussen's house, if any thoughts of gratitude or admiration crossed his mind, he certainly did not voice them. Instead, he went with anger at Magnussen. We could get the impression that by series 3, John just takes it for granted that Sherlock will lay his life down for him, passes that over and focuses right on how mad he is at the people who make that necessary in the first place.

 

I don't mind. First of all, I like it when a storyteller does things differently than my viewing / reading experience has led me to expect. Secondly, it's an interesting and plausible bit of characterization for Dr. John Watson, and thirdly, I think it is wise to use demonstrations of affection sparingly. Fourthly, for some reason I find John's angry, "ungrateful" side terribly funny. Don't ask me why. I have an odd sense of humor.

 

By the way, the clues are all there that John is mad as hell about the shooting and was as worried about his friend as anybody who loves the show and the characters could desire. From "who shot him?!" to the fact that he played doctor on the ambulance and apparently was there when Sherlock first woke up, it's all there. And the conversation just before the medics take Sherlock back to the hospital after the Baker St scene - just ignore the other characters running around and imagine some sappy music in the background and you're all set. At least I think so.

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear TOBY, so glad you are back! Your clear mind and thinking processes are desperately needed on sfmpco's newly started thread on Mr Moffat's article concerning what we have missed! Please, if I rant on my own, I shall probably have to do a whole essay on their plot holes!

Speaking of which, Dear John reacted badly enough with his, from my viewpoint, unpardonable remark about his 'best friend' not needing morphine during their confrontation at the flat.

[T.o.b.y]

Dear John reacted badly enough with his, from my viewpoint, unpardonable remark about his 'best friend' not needing morphine during their confrontation at the flat.

 

:D See, this is one of the bits I find funny!

 

Of course it's all got a lot to do with personal experience and perspective. I come from folks who aren't prone to saying things like "I love you" or "I'm glad you're my friend / parent / whatever". It's quite easy for me to accept that John's "dickhead" is another person's endearment. Besides, when you're really very close to someone and very sure of their love, they are often the people you bother the least to be polite with and who get the brunt of your (well, my) temper. My mother once put it this way: "It's all right, dear. You know you're not going to lose my affection, and so you can let it out with me even when it's not my fault."

[Boton]

 

 

 

By the way, the clues are all there that John is mad as hell about the shooting and was as worried about his friend as anybody who loves the show and the characters could desire. From "who shot him?!" to the fact that he played doctor on the ambulance and apparently was there when Sherlock first woke up, it's all there. And the conversation just before the medics take Sherlock back to the hospital after the Baker St scene - just ignore the other characters running around and imagine some sappy music in the background and you're all set. At least I think so.

 

 

I find John's behavior on the ambulance to be even more poignant than the idea that he was there when Sherlock woke up.  That's kind of one of the things I meant when I said I liked the "bromantic" moments in the story -- John's a doctor, and he bloody well is going to climb into that ambulance and see to it that his best friend is getting all the care he needs, even if (especially if) he has to provide it himself.  I just love the mental picture of John trying not to get into the medics' way but checking vitals and glancing worriedly at monitors while he sits there at Sherlock's head and tries to talk to him to keep Sherlock with them.  

 

Speaking of which, Dear John reacted badly enough with his, from my viewpoint, unpardonable remark about his 'best friend' not needing morphine during their confrontation at the flat.

 

I understand your feeling, especially in light of the fact that there was apparently a deleted line in that scene where Sherlock admits to the gravity of his condition much earlier.  But as it is aired, I think it's really just a case of what Toby says -- John is comfortable enough with Sherlock to really be himself in a stressful situation.  Great friends will worry about your physical condition, but best friends will also threaten to kill you themselves.  

[Inge l-w]

Having been brought up on the principle of Whatever does not kill me makes me stronger, and still being able to count the times my mother embraced me or suffered herself to be kissed on my fingers, excepting birthdays, Christmas Eve and NewYear's Day, I know exactly how reserved a person who loves and protects you from everything without being expressive about it can behave.

Reserve and self-possession are not strictly a Holmes' brothers' preserve, but friends are different, especially those who on previous occasions have expressed sentiments, as the dear doctor apparently does in TEH when he allegedly forgives Sherlock, and in SoT, when he asks him to be the best man.

[Yusree]

Sherlock is John best friend and John is Sherlock best friend...........confirm  ;)

 

[Inge l-w]

Could you, please, define 'best friend' in your interpretation? That is what my whole objection about S3 has been about!

[sfmpco]

Well, best friends between men is an entirely different ball game than best friends between women or even best friends between a man and a woman.

 

I believe it was George Carlin who said, "Women are crazy and men are stupid, and reason women are crazy is because men are stupid."  Now, I'm not saying that women can't be stupid in their own right, but there's just something about boys and men - they have to do stupid things.  They just do.  That testosterone makes them think they can do things, overcome things, tough out things ... and those are generally stupid things.

 

Well, John and Sherlock's friendship is built on a lot of stupid men behavior where common sense flies out the window...and they put up with it because there's always a sense of adventure about it.  Men jump from rooftop to rooftop.  A woman is more sensible.

 

Yes, they are best friends because they have the same sense of stupid, Sherlock even more so.  "We'll have a stupid adventure and maybe risk our lives or get hurt, and we'll get up and do it again tomorrow because it will be FUN."

 

It's the show about men being boys being men.

[T.o.b.y]

 

It's the show about men being boys being men.

 

Exactly! And this is why the series constantly makes me feel like Mrs Hudson, even though I'm younger than either of the characters.

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear friends, the fact that the creators have gone to great lengths to infantilise the eponymous character and make Dr Watson and DI Lestrade his minders does not detract from the fallacy they have committed: if you are a genius, you are also an iconoclast in thinking (check out all relative neuroscience research) and have emotional intelligence. It is an either/or exclusion point, which comes full circle to his still being relatively young and on a learning curve, but brilliant in every sense, and somewhere we discussed the point of his leaps of intuitive deduction springing from a psychic duality, which is not just fuelled by hormones. Dr Watson's behaviour throughout S3 makes him a distinctly unlovable, unloving, unforgiving character.

[sfmpco]

Apparently we are watching programs.