John Watson

[Arcadia]

 

 

They needed something special, so she can have all the secrets she get from the important people. First, she need them "distracted" (tied up or knocked out ;)) to get to their sources, second - being a client of a domlnatrix is a much better pressure point that just using the usual service. All that photos of them in very compromising positions

 

Ah... is it still a thread about John?

 

True, but still ...

 

And I hope we're not still talking about John. :D

 

John, John ... what part of him have we not dissected yet? Er ...

[Redbeard]

 

 But no she has to be fascinating because - nudity and sexuality.  Ho hum.  Like every other show out there.   She takes her clothes off and bam - Sherlock's intrigued. Gag. I expected more of Sherlock.    

 

Hmmm. Didn't see it like that. To me she is trying her usual MO on Sherlock, which doesn't work. Which makes him intriguing to her. On the other hand she (because she works with Moriarty - something that Sherlock doesn't know until the very end) is still one step ahead of him, knows that the vicar is a trick etc. which makes her intriguing to him.

In the end she is attracted to him despite being gay, and he is attracted to her despite being… whatever he is.

 

And to me it's still about wits, not sex. It's entertaining for both of them. The first comparison I can think of, is attending milongas with your gay friend of opposite sex, because you both love dancing tango.

 

And I still can imagine them texting each other out of a very special sentiment, a kind of game, in which a vague vision is better than the reality ever could be, so it's better not to spoil it by trying to make it true.

 

If they ever meet, they probably play chess. ;)

 

 

I agree that they seem to want to say it's about wits, not sex.  And while that is what they "say", they still had to present her in this highly sexualised way.  What's the point if that's not the point? lol.  She could have been anything...why that?  

 

 

So she successfully threw him off balance by appearing naked and pretending to seduce him, and that didn't necessarily have anything to do with being a domin8trix; any woman with the proper nerve could have done that. But then she kept him off balance, and kept winning their little fencing matches, and I think that's supposed to be what attracted him.

 

Honestly, she would trow me of by appearing naked out of the blue. And Mycroft too. :P

 

But having said all that, I agree ... even after all this time, every time I hear "domin8trix", I roll my eyes. Oh fer gawd's sake, do we really have to drag kinky sex into the equation? Can't she just be smart, period? *sigh*

 

They needed something special, so she can have all the secrets she get from the important people. First, she need them "distracted" (tied up or knocked out ;)) to get to their sources, second - being a client of a domlnatrix is a much better pressure point that just using the usual service. All that photos of them in very compromising positions

 

Ah... is it still a thread about John?

 

 

Now in regards to John, lol, I would have thought he would be the one to fall for Irene, being the unabashed ladies man with a thrill-seeking streak.  Right?  But no he doesn't seem to really like her, which, based on what we are told of his character he really should right?   To me, it is logical that John would be intrigued while Sherlock would be bored.  

[Pseudonym]

In his three continents days would John have been able to seduce you? Discuss ;)

[Surelock]

 

I think the issue I have with the violence actually comes partly from the fact that they aren't fights. Aside from SiB it's John attacking Sherlock and Sherlock taking it. If it was a fight, if Sherlock defended himself and hit him back I would be okay with it. If that TLD scene was just as brutal but with both of them ended up bruised and bloody I would probably be surprised but not disturbed. It's the lying down and taking it when someone is laying into you that really gets me. We know Sherlock can defend himself, but he chooses not to. 

 

I think John expected Sherlock to fight back in some capacity. He just attacked first and tried to keep the advantage. However when Sherlock told Smith to let John continue punching him, John realised that Sherlock really wasn't going to fight back so he stopped.

[Boton]

 

 

And those scenes of John hitting Sherlock in The Empty Hearse were supposed to be funny and make the viewer laugh. 

 

Looks like Moffat has a 'broad' sense of humour.

 

I never found it very funny. Did anyone find it funny? Was it really meant to be funny? I guess so, from the way it was edited together. God, since it's written by two blokes their idea of male friendship seems pretty messed up.

 

 

I thought it was kind of funny the first time I saw it but maybe that's just because I'm a guy.

 

Tbh I don't really mind the violence involving Sherlock and/or John in the series as much as some of the other users on this forum do. From what I've seen, a lot of users on this forum seems to dislike at least one violent scene involving Sherlock and/or John whether it be Sherlock shooting Magnussen, John beating up Sherlock etc.

 

From a male perspective, I can tell you that a lot of men use violence to show affection for one another. If a guy hasn't had a physical fight with his friend yet then his friendship just isn't that strong. Personally I've fought with all of my close male friends at least once.

 

That's how I interpret John punching Sherlock in The Empty Hearse and The Lying Detective. I don't see it as John not caring about Sherlock's welfare. I see it more as a way for John to demonstrate how much he cares about Sherlock. It's a way for John to say how much he looks up to him, trusts him etc. 

 

I know this may sound bizarre but if you're a male that has fought with his friends, this makes more sense. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Moffat and Gatiss fought each other in the past the same way they get John to fight Sherlock. I could see them giving each other bloody noses etc.

 

 

I'm glad you said this, Surelock.  Actually, most of the Sherlock-John "violence" rings true to me for male behavior as well.  I found the scene in SiB absolutely hysterical, as did many others, and *I* probably would have punched Sherlock myself in TEH, and I'm a girl!

 

TLD did disturb me, but it was only because of my perception of imbalance between the two.  Sherlock was high, ill, and literally bleeding on the floor, and John was still kicking him.  To me, that was John's anger getting the better of him, because, when I think of a fight between men, I generally think of them as having rough, tacit "rules of engagement" where they both understand they are working out an emotion.  The imbalance of power bothered me more than the violence.  

[Arcadia]

 

Now in regards to John, lol, I would have thought he would be the one to fall for Irene, being the unabashed ladies man with a thrill-seeking streak.  Right?  But no he doesn't seem to really like her, which, based on what we are told of his character he really should right?   To me, it is logical that John would be intrigued while Sherlock would be bored.

Except that I think the reason he doesn't like her is because he thinks she's messing with Sherlock's feelings, and he's worried about his friend. And she uses people, I think he doesn't like that about her either. Although Sherlock uses people too, but not, I think, in quite such a personal way .... ?

[Surelock]

That's not too bad, I was expecting something more disturbing - that's just messing with each other's heads. I don't think they meet every six months, that's a bit daft. 

 

This isn't aimed at anyone - just at the show - It annoys me that Irene, who says she is a lesbian, and lives with a woman, is shoe-horned in as a love interest. She's gay ffs. She may sleep with people for money (though I don't know if she does do the whole hog or just 'dominates' them), she may mess with Sherlock's head knowing she can use her sexuality as his weakness but if she is gay she's not going to be having liaisons with him. If she's not actually gay why have her saying that she is? Why does John, who has a gay sister, seem so adamant that Irene is interested in Sherlock when he's the one she told she as gay. If you're going to have a gay character in your show, have her be gay. 

 

As I said in another thread, I think Irene always believed she was lesbian until she met Sherlock. When she met Sherlock, she realised she wasn't lesbian. She was bisexual but she hadn't realised it before because she had never met the right man. Sherlock was the right man she had always been looking for. It is somewhat believable because Sherlock is a unique man so if Irene has very specific tastes in men then I can see her not fallng in love with men earlier in her life.

 

 

 

The bit this got really bad for me was when she made 'Sher'-locked her password (I still can't believe Moffat thought this was a clever device. I'm pretty sure there are 13 year old girls with more password savvy than that). How does someone go from being a lesbian to being so infatuated with a guy you pin your whole life on using his name as a password, before you have even met him in person? 

 

 

I assumed that Irene's password was initially different. However I think Irene changed her password shortly before giving Sherlock her phone.

[Pseudonym]

 

 

Now in regards to John, lol, I would have thought he would be the one to fall for Irene, being the unabashed ladies man with a thrill-seeking streak.  Right?  But no he doesn't seem to really like her, which, based on what we are told of his character he really should right?   To me, it is logical that John would be intrigued while Sherlock would be bored.  

 

Yes, that would have made more sense.

[Pseudonym]

 

I think John expected Sherlock to fight back in some capacity. He just attacked first and tried to keep the advantage. However when Sherlock told Smith to let John continue punching him, John realised that Sherlock really wasn't going to fight back so he stopped.

 

When he realised Sherlock wasn't going to fight back then he should have stopped (and that was obvious from the first punch) not escalated even further by kicking him. Yea, red mist, he wasn't thinking - that is more believable than him 'trying to keep his advantage.' I don't think John realised he wasn't defending himself and that's why he stopped, he didn't care, he was glad he could lay into him as much as he wanted. 

 

 

As I said in another thread, I think Irene always believed she was lesbian until she met Sherlock. When she met Sherlock, she realised she wasn't lesbian. She was bisexual but she hadn't realised it before because she had never met the right man. Sherlock was the right man she had always been looking for. It is somewhat believable because Sherlock is a unique man so if Irene has very specific tastes in men then I can see her not fallng in love with men earlier in her life.

 

Omg, no. She had to meet the right man?! No. 

[Boton]

 

As I said in another thread, I think Irene always believed she was lesbian until she met Sherlock. When she met Sherlock, she realised she wasn't lesbian. She was bisexual but she hadn't realised it before because she had never met the right man. Sherlock was the right man she had always been looking for. It is somewhat believable because Sherlock is a unique man so if Irene has very specific tastes in men then I can see her not fallng in love with men earlier in her life.

 

 

I agree in principle, but let me kind of rephrase a bit.  Let's give Irene the same benefit of the doubt that has launched a million Johnlock fanfics when applied to John:  Irene identifies as gay.  That's who she believes she is.  But maybe she's not exactly a "Kinsey 5," and it's possible for her to be attracted to very specific men.  Or, maybe her interactions with men have not been anything to write home about, and she didn't see the point in further exploration.  But along comes Sherlock (because everyone wants to sleep with Sherlock, right?  :P ), and he becomes an exception for her.

 

That's the way I read the scene at the power station between John and Irene.  (The "we're not a couple/yes you are," "I'm not gay/ well I am" scene.) John and Irene aren't expressing the same emotion to one another, they're expressing mirror emotions that each center around Sherlock.  John is not gay; he's not attracted to Sherlock sexually, but he has formed a "couple" with him, which constitutes a type of exception for John.  Irene is gay; she also would not normally be attracted to Sherlock, but there is something about the intelligence and the challenge (and the hair....) that makes him an exception for her.  

 

To me, it isn't a question of "you are/aren't gay because you haven't met the right man yet," so much as it is that Sherlock constitutes an exception to both of their relationship patterns.

 

 

 

 

Now in regards to John, lol, I would have thought he would be the one to fall for Irene, being the unabashed ladies man with a thrill-seeking streak.  Right?  But no he doesn't seem to really like her, which, based on what we are told of his character he really should right?   To me, it is logical that John would be intrigued while Sherlock would be bored.  

 

Yes, that would have made more sense.

 

 

But SiB had to follow, in broad outline, the story in Scandal in Bohemia.  Heaven only knows if Watson was attracted to Irene in the original, but Holmes was certainly walking around like a school boy with a major crush, and Watson noticed it and recorded it in his story.

[Pseudonym]

Yup, agree with all that. 

[bedelia1984]

 

 

 

The bit this got really bad for me was when she made 'Sher'-locked her password (I still can't believe Moffat thought this was a clever device. I'm pretty sure there are 13 year old girls with more password savvy than that). How does someone go from being a lesbian to being so infatuated with a guy you pin your whole life on using his name as a password, before you have even met him in person? 

 

 

I assumed that Irene's password was initially different. However I think Irene changed her password shortly before giving Sherlock her phone.

 

 

This is the centre of the problem I have with the whole Irene scenario- either she fell for him before meeting him (I had guessed she maybe had him under surveillance?) or she did so later, but then why would you change your password to the name of the person you are giving your phone to, if your life depends on keeping the secrets contained in that phone?

 

I get that people are talking about a battle of wits, but with a move like that, all I can think is 'What wits?' Or are we supposed to believe that she anticipates him solving the clue and wants to be apprehended by Mycroft so that Sherlock can come to her rescue?

 

 

In his three continents days would John have been able to seduce you? Discuss  ;)

 

 

I feel bad for not talking about John more on his own thread. No wonder he's been lashing out.

 

I think a lot of women would find John attractive because he's modest, nice-looking and warm, and he also seems to genuinely want and enjoy female companionship. Though, looking back, I'm now wondering does John really have a type, or is he just a bit girl-crazy? He even tried to make a move on Anthea, after all. Somehow I feel like Mycroft was secretly watching that and having a bit of a laugh to himself.

 

 

[Surelock]

 

 

 

 

The bit this got really bad for me was when she made 'Sher'-locked her password (I still can't believe Moffat thought this was a clever device. I'm pretty sure there are 13 year old girls with more password savvy than that). How does someone go from being a lesbian to being so infatuated with a guy you pin your whole life on using his name as a password, before you have even met him in person? 

 

 

I assumed that Irene's password was initially different. However I think Irene changed her password shortly before giving Sherlock her phone.

 

 

This is the centre of the problem I have with the whole Irene scenario- either she fell for him before meeting him (I had guessed she maybe had him under surveillance?) or she did so later, but then why would you change your password to the name of the person you are giving your phone to, if your life depends on keeping the secrets contained in that phone?

 

I get that people are talking about a battle of wits, but with a move like that, all I can think is 'What wits?' Or are we supposed to believe that she anticipates him solving the clue and wants to be apprehended by Mycroft so that Sherlock can come to her rescue?

 

 

It wasn't about wits as much as it was about ideologies. Remember what Sherlock said at the end to her right before typing in the correct password:

http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/27275.html

 

 

SHERLOCK: When we first met, you told me that disguise is always a self-portrait. How true of you: the combination to your safe – your measurements; but this ... (he tosses the phone into the air and catches it again) ... this is far more intimate. 

(He pulls up the security lock with its “I AM ---- LOCKED” screen.) 

SHERLOCK: This is your heart ... 

(Without breaking his gaze into her eyes, he punches in the first of the four characters with his thumb.) 

SHERLOCK: ... and you should never let it rule your head. 

(She stares at him, trying to stay calm but the panic is beginning to show behind her eyes.) 

SHERLOCK: You could have chosen any random number and walked out of here today with everything you’ve worked for ... 

(He punches in the second character, his eyes still locked on hers.) 

SHERLOCK: ... but you just couldn’t resist it, could you? 

 

 

Irene believes that disguise should be a self-portrait. If she ever wants to hide something, she makes it a self-portrait.

 

That's why she made the combination for her safe, her measurements. Similarly that's why Sherlock earlier entered in 221B as the passcode because Irene left the phone to him in his flat at 221B Baker Street. Sherlock used Irene's principle of self-portrait to guess that 221B was the passcode but he was wrong. The passcode was some other sort of self-portrait that related to Irene in some way but Sherlock couldn't figure it out until he confirmed that Irene really was in love with him by checking her pulse etc.

 

So basically Sherlock's ideology of sentiment being bad won over Irene's ideology of a self-portrait being the best disguise.

[bedelia1984]

What Irene actually says is that the 'problem' with a disguise is that it is always some form a self portrait- I don't think she's describing that as a virtue of a disguise, but rather the opposite. Which I took to be quite an accurate insight- but also an admission of a weakness of her own- and she hands Sherlock what he needs to take her down right there. But my point was more that, how can they expect us to believe that Sherlock is attracted to her because of her wits (and the battle of wits they are supposedly engaged in) if she will use such an obvious choice of password? What intelligent reason was there for her to choose it? 

 

For me, it's as if Moffat wants us to believe she's a calculating. blackmailing villain one minute, but then turns as gooey as a lovestruck teenager the next, and can't resist making her latest crush her password.

 

Then again, I always found the scene annoying in general, because of how it gives Sherlock the opportunity to rub in Irene's face that she's been bested because of her emotions, (her feelings for him) and I don't like the idea that Irene's emotions are used a failing that can be turned against her. To me, there is a nasty undertone to that scene that as a woman Irene is destined too lose because she's too emotional compared to her male opponent.

[Surelock]

Oh yeah I forgot that earlier line.

 

But anyway I think Sherlock fell in love with Irene earlier when she managed to sedate him and escape. 

 

As for Irene's flaws, well I'll just say that whenever Moffat writes a female character they tend to have similar flaws. Maybe this is just how Moffat sees women. 

[Arcadia]

In his three continents days would John have been able to seduce you? Discuss ;)

 

Depends on his approach. If he batted his eyelashes at me the way he did at Sarah ... yeah, probably.

 

 

 

I think the issue I have with the violence actually comes partly from the fact that they aren't fights. Aside from SiB it's John attacking Sherlock and Sherlock taking it. If it was a fight, if Sherlock defended himself and hit him back I would be okay with it. If that TLD scene was just as brutal but with both of them ended up bruised and bloody I would probably be surprised but not disturbed. It's the lying down and taking it when someone is laying into you that really gets me. We know Sherlock can defend himself, but he chooses not to. 

 

I think John expected Sherlock to fight back in some capacity. He just attacked first and tried to keep the advantage. However when Sherlock told Smith to let John continue punching him, John realised that Sherlock really wasn't going to fight back so he stopped.

 

 

He didn't stop, did he? He was pulled away by the guards when they ran in.

[Carol the Dabbler]

In John's defense, I don't believe there was any danger whatsoever of him killing or maiming Sherlock. As he told Wiggins, he knows how to sprain people, meaning that he knows how to avoid seriously injuring them while still getting their attention -- or even beating the crap out of them.

[Surelock]

 

 

 

I think the issue I have with the violence actually comes partly from the fact that they aren't fights. Aside from SiB it's John attacking Sherlock and Sherlock taking it. If it was a fight, if Sherlock defended himself and hit him back I would be okay with it. If that TLD scene was just as brutal but with both of them ended up bruised and bloody I would probably be surprised but not disturbed. It's the lying down and taking it when someone is laying into you that really gets me. We know Sherlock can defend himself, but he chooses not to. 

 

I think John expected Sherlock to fight back in some capacity. He just attacked first and tried to keep the advantage. However when Sherlock told Smith to let John continue punching him, John realised that Sherlock really wasn't going to fight back so he stopped.

 

 

He didn't stop, did he? He was pulled away by the guards when they ran in.

 

 

Yes but I don't think John fully accepted that Sherlock had no intention of fighting back until Sherlock admitted that he 'killed' Mary. I think John may have expected Sherlock to at least say something back at him but that wasn't the case.

[gerry]

..... The only, possibly, ideal way is that they end up together, BUT, that won't be the case, at least not in Sherlock's mind at that moment, that's why he was so crushed because he realizes that is actually something not reversible. He could say anything to anyone; insult, condemn, make fun, chastise or indirectly saying something endearing but he never ever ever say things like that because I am sure, he doesn't know how to process that yet. It is still the currency he doesn't know how to use, and he is forced to do that in quite brutal ways. To me, there is every reason of why that coffin is in pieces.....

 

I'm not sure I'm following your point here. Is the currency you're referring to specifically the words ILY and what that implies? So you think he broke the coffin because he had to say ILY and doesn't know what that means in the Molly context or because he didn't mean it but had made Molly say it anyway?

 

Count me in with those earlier that don't understand the point of making Irene a lesbian if they wanted her to be a romantic/sexual interest for Sherlock. It was way OTT like Moffat is such a fanboy of Sherlock that he couldn't resist making him the one man on Earth who could make Irene sexually interested. It was just so unnecessary. I've always wondered what MG thought of that angle.

 

But anyway I think Sherlock fell in love with Irene earlier when she managed to sedate him and escape.

 

Maybe this comes down to how you view love but I've always had trouble believing that either Sherlock or Irene are actually in love with the other since the entire basis of whatever they feel is based on game playing and manipulation. Do they even know the real versions of the other person outside of the game? However, I get the sense from his writing in SiB that Moffat wants you to believe they are but I just never got a great love affair out of that episode. Probably just me though.

[Pseudonym]

In John's defense, I don't believe there was any danger whatsoever of him killing or maiming Sherlock. As he told Wiggins, he knows how to sprain people, meaning that he knows how to avoid seriously injuring them while still getting their attention -- or even beating the crap out of them.

 

I don't know he didn't seem in control enough to care that much about what he was doing. It looked to me like he was having a blackout, once he started attacking he just couldn't stop. I've had a blackout a couple of times like that and it's terrifying you really have no idea what the hell you've just done. Still, when he is pulled away and broken out of it he doesn't seem alarmed by what he's just done.

 

 

In his three continents days would John have been able to seduce you? Discuss ;)

 

Depends on his approach. If he batted his eyelashes at me the way he did at Sarah ... yeah, probably.

 

I'm torn, there's something a little bit threatening about John that I think would turn me off. If he was like he was in Whisky Tango Foxtrot I might be more tempted though

[Redbeard]

 

 

In his three continents days would John have been able to seduce you? Discuss  ;)

 

 

I feel bad for not talking about John more on his own thread. No wonder he's been lashing out.

 

I think a lot of women would find John attractive because he's modest, nice-looking and warm, and he also seems to genuinely want and enjoy female companionship. Though, looking back, I'm now wondering does John really have a type, or is he just a bit girl-crazy? He even tried to make a move on Anthea, after all. Somehow I feel like Mycroft was secretly watching that and having a bit of a laugh to himself.

 

 

 

I agree on everything but the "warm" part.  John strikes me as very cold actually!  I don't think I would have succumbed to the charms of Dr. Watson lol, at least not this version. 

[Redbeard]

In John's defense, I don't believe there was any danger whatsoever of him killing or maiming Sherlock. As he told Wiggins, he knows how to sprain people, meaning that he knows how to avoid seriously injuring them while still getting their attention -- or even beating the crap out of them.

 

It's a good way to look at it, but as a doctor he would know how much pain he is causing his friend.  I know it is displaced anger, it just doesn't make John very likable to me that he would rather Sherlock suffer than himself.  Not very noble.  

 

But then John is not the only one abusing him.   There's Irene beating/whipping Sherlock, Mycroft allowed Sherlock to be tortured, Molly slapped him, Janine stopped his morphine, Mary shot him...poor Sherlock for a guy that had a hard time allowing friends in his life, he sure picked a sucky crew.  The only kind of forgiveable one was Molly slapping him because at least that was out of concern for HIM.  I think he was better off when his only circle was Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson! 

 

If the series comes back I am hoping Sherlock demands respect from these people instead of being everyone's punching bag and I hope to see some apologies and huge heroics from John. 

[Pseudonym]

Completely agree!! I want Sherlock to stick up for himself more. He should have stuck with Lestrade, at least he hugged him when he returned from the dead! Though he doesn't seem bothered by John punching him :(

[Arcadia]

Yeah, if I had any expectations for S4, the only one I remember right now is that I thought John would have a Big Moment to make up for his lack of one in S3. Well, I guess he sort of got one, but it was the wrong kind; I expected he would do something for Sherlock, not to Sherlock.  

 

I don't think Sherlock does mind, because he understands where John's anger is coming from. Should he mind? Probably. But I note that John is still seeing a therapist, and we have never seen Sherlock, unlike Mycroft, try to dissuade him from that. I think what TLD mostly showed us is that Sherlock knows John very, very well, and yet still values his friendship above everything else; even his own well-being. Well, heck, he values everything above his well-being, the big clot.

[Pseudonym]

I'm a bit confused by Sherlock (sorry John, I know this is your thread) going to see Ella. It was never brought up again. It was a weird one off. Is he also seeing a therapist? He certainly needs to, but it's not something I can see him doing. Besides I would have thought it would have had to be a therapist with clearance given what he would have to tell them about things he's done.