John Watson

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

I never found it very funny. Did anyone find it funny? Was it really meant to be funny? I guess so, from the way it was edited together. God, since it's written by two blokes their idea of male friendship seems pretty messed up.

I actually found them funny and meant to be lighthearted, which is very different with how I feel with TLD. That's why I worried what happens in TLD would ruin SIB and TEH scenes for me. However, I do know that they are not 'related' and the contexts are different, so I'd try to treat them that way. Haven't rewatched any, but I think I'd feel what I feel originally to respective episodes, which is probably the best outcome that I could expect.

 

 

 

 

I thought it was kind of funny the first time I saw it but maybe that's just because I'm a guy.

 

Tbh I don't really mind the violence involving Sherlock and/or John in the series as much as some of the other users on this forum do. From what I've seen, a lot of users on this forum seems to dislike at least one violent scene involving Sherlock and/or John whether it be Sherlock shooting Magnussen, John beating up Sherlock etc.

 

From a male perspective, I can tell you that a lot of men use violence to show affection for one another. If a guy hasn't had a physical fight with his friend yet then his friendship just isn't that strong. Personally I've fought with all of my close male friends at least once.

 

 

I'm probably living in male world. All my siblings are male, my work environment are all males, it's been almost two years since I'm the only female left in my field and previously there were only one/two. My good friends are mostly male. At this point, my only regular female contact is my mom.

But no, they don't fight each other to the point of bloody nose.

However, I understand your point, I just hope that you only referred to SIB and TEH, and not TLD, yes?

 

TLD is not a way to treat a friend, any friend, stranger, or anyone who don't pose imminent harm (if it's argued that John thought Sherlock might harm Culverton, he could have stop after he disabled him) and not continue trying to kill him especially without reasonable reasonings. But I won't go on that again, I'm not easily upset at all, I watched all kind of crime and thriller or anything without a wince. But somehow talking about this particular scene is no good. No good!

 

 

At any rate, it was shown in an entirely different manner in TLD ... as one continuous, agonizingly sustained attack, not as the series of jump cuts they used to represent the other rumpuses. We were supposed to be disturbed by it. To me, the incidents that are more similar to the beating in TLD are the verbal assaults ... the "you're a drama queen" in TSo3, and that "tell me, you pompous prick, or I’ll punch your lights out" in TAB. That last one in particular was delivered with such venom that it really shook me.

 

Yep-P.

And as bad as it sounds, I didn't think that one day John would actually do that. :(

In other way, does Sherlock in his own mind, always thought he deserves John's beating? But it's f* up, Sherl. You are smart, even when you are clot in relationship. He should know that he is a better friend and person that he gives himself credit.

 

 

Yes, a big part of it is that, John's doctor side, caring for and looking after Sherlock. (And then there is probably also that very small part of him that can't help but wonder what it would be like to at least have had the chance to sleep with Irene Adler.)

 

 

I like that we'll never know. It's refreshing.

 

THIS.

 

Yes!

Sorry guys, if it's up to me, I'll chain all, any ships together and then deliver a demolition ship and sink everything. :p

As selfish as it sounds, I'm not sure Sherlock would be as compelling if he is 'normal', and if we see 'normal' detective stories. Imagine this place full of weary sparkly hopeful romantic happy members instead of dark, twisted, nutty and dorks. Tender world, but how boring bit would be.

BORING! :P

[Surelock]

 

  

I'm probably living in male world. All my siblings are male, my work environment are all males, it's been almost two years since I'm the only female left in my field and previously there were only one/two. My good friends are mostly male. At this point, my only regular female contact is my mom.

But no, they don't fight each other to the point of bloody nose.

However, I understand your point, I just hope that you only referred to SIB and TEH, and not TLD, yes?

 

TLD is not a way to treat a friend, any friend, stranger, or anyone who don't pose imminent harm (if it's argued that John thought Sherlock might harm Culverton, he could have stop after he disabled him) and not continue trying to kill him especially without reasonable reasonings. But I won't go on that again, I'm not easily upset at all, I watched all kind of crime and thriller or anything without a wince. But somehow talking about this particular scene is no good. No good!

 

 

I have a question for you and all the other ladies on here that have a lot of male friends: how well do you know your male friends?

 

One thing I've noticed about men is that they have a habit of fighting each other and then not talking about it later. Sometimes it's because they just don't want to bring up any drama in the future. Other times it's because they forgive each other in a non-verbal way.

 

What I'm basically saying is that unless you've been around your male friends 24/7, it's difficult to determine whether they ever really fought each other. I'm not saying they necessarily have to fight to the point of a bloody nose but it's unusual if a guy hasn't caused at least some physical pain to his close male friend.

[Pseudonym]

I've always taken the coffin smashing as his anger and hurt over everything that's happening, it's not about Molly in particular. At least I really don't want it to be. 

 

As for male relationships - I think a lot of this comes down to age. You have to remember that Sherlock and John are both adult men with professional jobs. They are not teenagers, they should have grown past the point of scrapping to settle disagreements. They met in their thirties, they are now in their forties, and men in their forties do not (and certainly should not) fight when they disagree. It's infantile. I take for example my brother, who is about Sherlock's age. When he was a teenager he got in loads of fights (though not with his friends), and even got in trouble with the police a couple of times. Now, however, he is in his forties has an excellent job and hasn't been involved in any violence since his early uni days. Boys might fight, any man that wants to be respected and seen as a adult should have grown past that. 

 

I think the issue I have with the violence actually comes partly from the fact that they aren't fights. Aside from SiB it's John attacking Sherlock and Sherlock taking it. If it was a fight, if Sherlock defended himself and hit him back I would be okay with it. If that TLD scene was just as brutal but with both of them ended up bruised and bloody I would probably be surprised but not disturbed. It's the lying down and taking it when someone is laying into you that really gets me. We know Sherlock can defend himself, but he chooses not to. 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I have a question for you and all the other ladies on here that have a lot of male friends: how well do you know your male friends?

 

One thing I've noticed about men is that they have a habit of fighting each other and then not talking about it later. Sometimes it's because they just don't want to bring up any drama in the future. Other times it's because they forgive each other in a non-verbal way.

 

What I'm basically saying is that unless you've been around your male friends 24/7, it's difficult to determine whether they ever really fought each other. I'm not saying they necessarily have to fight to the point of a bloody nose but it's unusual if a guy hasn't caused at least some physical pain to his close male friend.

To answer your question,

 

I grow up with my siblings, and back then we actually had to share room. They fought, we fought, but it's never to a point that we seriously harm or inflict serious pain to each other.

I stayed in small unisex hostel, where everyone knows each other, I believe 24/7 is quite applicable and the most serious fight I had seen were guys pushing each other.

I saw guy fight to bloody nose, before, yes, but on very specific occasions and it's extremely rare, normally between two guys with strong personalities and opposite views, and normally not very good friend.

My trip companions are mostly males, leisure or for hobby/other purposes I sometimes spent weeks 24/7 sharing same rooms or places.

I also rented houses with male friends and we worked in same company, we were practically 24/7 together.

Am married to one who also has mostly male friends and they have never physically hurt each other to bloody nose point, or inflicting serious physical pain, not close friends especially.

 

Those I know and around with are not from same background, there are colorful personalities with backgrounds from poor to rich, street survivors to bookies. And the examples I gave ranged from childhood, high school, uni until professional working adults.

 

Of course, I am not a male, so I can't say I know what is like being one. I am just told that I have good understanding of them, by them. Not sure if they actually share things like that, but they do share a lot, sometimes forgetting I am not a dude.

But that's my pov. Others may have different inputs, but since you ask, for me, no, it's foreign for me that it's usual for friends to physically hurt each other.

[J.P.]

I remember we did have discussion and I had bunch of reasons about why Sherlock seems very upset in that party, especially at Molly. Not sure where it is, maybe in SIB thread. Basically because Molly blabbers a lot about him. Nothing wrong, it's just girl in love thingy and she tried to get his attention. But Sherlock wasn't aware and annoyed, which is understandable from his PoV there.

 

You mean this one? http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/5-episode-21-a-scandal-in-belgravia/?p=69395

[gerry]

I can similarly argue that there's no reason for them to avoid it either. If Sherlock's sexuality is not planned to be part of the plot then why be so ambiguous about it? Why don't they just state his sexuality and move along? I mean a lot of people would like to know.

 

To keep their options open. If they haven't determined future plot yet, why define it now?

 

I didn't really sense romantic tension in that scene from Sherlock. I just think he was upset because he had been manipulated into taking advantage of Molly's feelings for him.

I didnt know what I saw from that scene from initial viewing but I think that's intentional because I don't think the show has decided yet. That's what I got from what BC and MG said about the scene anyway. So far all I know is that Sherlock had deep emotions he couldn't hide about it.

[gerry]

I've always taken the coffin smashing as his anger and hurt over everything that's happening, it's not about Molly in particular. At least I really don't want it to be.

 

I could think it was that simple but BC said it was over Molly. You could interpret that as just PR though I guess.

[Pseudonym]

I think sometimes BC's opinions seem to be different to the writers. I know he's of the opinion that Irene and Sherlock slept together when he went to save her, and has spoken of Sherlock's possible attractions in regards to women rather than men. 

[gerry]

Didn't know that. Would Irene and Sherlock sleeping together be different than the writers' opinion? I could totally see Moffat telling BC that's what happened especially if you go by that creepy weird Irene/Sherlock scene Moffat said he wrote for fun at that convention. BC definitely plays Sherlock as more heterosexual than homosexual or asexual so that doesn't surprise me either, at least how he acts is consistent with what he describes.

[Pseudonym]

I think the writers just leave it up to everyone's imaginations so you can think what you want. What creepy/weird scene?

Out of curiosity in what way do you read him as heterosexual? Just the way he is with Irene?

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

I remember we did have discussion and I had bunch of reasons about why Sherlock seems very upset in that party, especially at Molly. Not sure where it is, maybe in SIB thread. Basically because Molly blabbers a lot about him. Nothing wrong, it's just girl in love thingy and she tried to get his attention. But Sherlock wasn't aware and annoyed, which is understandable from his PoV there.

 

You mean this one? http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/5-episode-21-a-scandal-in-belgravia/?p=69395

 

YeP.

Nice find.

 

And remember, you are nuts because you bothered to look for it.

 

And remember, every time I call someone nuts, it's a compliment. :p

[Arcadia]

Count me as the happiest person to see the discussion is out in the open now. And there are lots of things said since my last post, so it's good to be able to see, and I can come back as fast as possible.

Is that why we haven't been seeing many comments from you, because updated posts weren't showing up on your contents page? That is messed up.

 

 

.... Though I'm curious why you feel the coffin scene would affect John's decision about Molly either way?

Can't speak for VBS, but seems to me that hearing Sherlock and Molly say "I love you" to each other would -- minimally -- make John stop and think before putting the move on Molly. Guys seem to have an unwritten code against dating a friend's gal, or gal the friend has his eye on, or even the friend's ex-gal.

Regarding the unwritten guy code, I agree it exists but does Molly qualify as that gal for Sherlock?

Carol has a point, it's part of my reason, some kind of bro code.

But to add to that, that scene is deeper. Sherlock was crushed and broken. It was a vivisection. Whatever feelings he has for Molly, we don't know for sure, I don't think he knows as well, that scene destroys him emotionally. Now that he is forced to do that, there will be a lot of questions for him, Molly, what it is about, where is it going, and how they handle that. The only, possibly, ideal way is that they end up together, BUT, that won't be the case, at least not in Sherlock's mind at that moment, that's why he was so crushed because he realizes that is actually something not reversible. He could say anything to anyone; insult, condemn, make fun, chastise or indirectly saying something endearing but he never ever ever say things like that because I am sure, he doesn't know how to process that yet. It is still the currency he doesn't know how to use, and he is forced to do that in quite brutal ways. To me, there is every reason of why that coffin is in pieces.

 

 

That's how I see it as well, although a lot of my reasons have to do with story structure rather than understanding what Sherlock is feeling. This is the point in the story where the villain tears the hero to shreds, and the hero has to pick himself up and move on, showing us why he IS the hero. So while I'm not a hundred percent sure what Sherlock was feeling, I believe it was deeply felt, and about his relationship (or lack thereof) with Molly. For a moment, at least, it broke him.

 

In other way, does Sherlock in his own mind, always thought he deserves John's beating?

I don't think so. I thought he believed John needed to vent his feelings, and if it meant taking a beating, then by God he'd take the beating. It's all about "saving" John, no matter the cost to himself. I also think he genuinely felt guilty about his part in Mary's death; not to the point of thinking he deserved a beating, exactly, but definitely to the point where he was resolved to take the beating if it would help his friend.

 

Now, did it actually help John to do that to Sherlock? In the real world, I doubt it; I think it would just shift the guilt to John. But in Sherlock world, now that they've hurt each other and forgiven each other, they are ready to let go of it and move on. For some reason I find that rather believable ... for them. Not for us goldfish, though.

 

I like that we'll never know. It's refreshing.

THIS.

 

Yes!

Sorry guys, if it's up to me, I'll chain all, any ships together and then deliver a demolition ship and sink everything. :P

As selfish as it sounds, I'm not sure Sherlock would be as compelling if he is 'normal', and if we see 'normal' detective stories. Imagine this place full of weary sparkly hopeful romantic happy members instead of dark, twisted, nutty and dorks. Tender world, but how boring bit would be.

BORING! :P

 

 

​THIS!!!

 

If I could erase one thing from my mind hut, it would be all knowledge of any shipping theories. I'd love to be able to watch this show through no filter but my own eyes/brain. I'd probably miss half of everything, but I'd be happier just following along, and not wondering if everything fit into this or that romantic subtext. Sorry, in some ways it's fun, but in some ways it's my least favorite thing about the fandom; the persistence in reading something sexual into every look and gesture.

 

As for male relationships - I think a lot of this comes down to age. You have to remember that Sherlock and John are both adult men with professional jobs. They are not teenagers, they should have grown past the point of scrapping to settle disagreements. They met in their thirties, they are now in their forties, and men in their forties do not (and certainly should not) fight when they disagree. It's infantile. I take for example my brother, who is about Sherlock's age. When he was a teenager he got in loads of fights (though not with his friends), and even got in trouble with the police a couple of times. Now, however, he is in his forties has an excellent job and hasn't been involved in any violence since his early uni days. Boys might fight, any man that wants to be respected and seen as a adult should have grown past that. 

 

​I agree, but I also note how Sherlock has always behaved as much younger than his actual age. (Except when he doesn't. :P) It's one of the distinctive peculiarities of his character, that he can be so steadfastly adult about some things, then pout like a five year old about something else. But again, I've always accepted that as exaggeration for the sake of humor; just part of the style of the show. But it's also true John & Sherlock have reached an age where it jars to see them being that immature. That's another reason I hated that opening sequence in T6T so much, I think; Sherlock was acting like a bratty child, not the 40-something he now is. 

[J.P.]

I know :P

I remember it well, because in my eyes it is one of the forum highlights. Plus, looking back, SIB seems to make the most sense, and I love how the sequence works psychologically. It's probably more true than Moff ever thought it would. :P

[Pseudonym]

Though Sherlock is the immature one he's not the one punching people all the time. 

[gerry]

Though Sherlock is the immature one he's not the one punching people all the time.

True but in the case of TEH he was egging it on with his mustache tweaking and his seeming lack of apology. The genuine apology came later in the episode.

[gerry]

I think the writers just leave it up to everyone's imaginations so you can think what you want. What creepy/weird scene?

Out of curiosity in what way do you read him as heterosexual? Just the way he is with Irene?

Yes mostly Irene and some Janine from the hospital room scene but that may be at least colored by my reading the script direction.

 

This was the Moffat written scene I was referring to. I found it weird and creepy but ymmv.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.radiotimes.com/amp/news/2015-06-03/sherlock-and-irene-adler-meet-up-every-six-months-for-a-night-of-passion-reveals-steven-moffat

[Pseudonym]

That's not too bad, I was expecting something more disturbing - that's just messing with each other's heads. I don't think they meet every six months, that's a bit daft. 

 

This isn't aimed at anyone - just at the show - It annoys me that Irene, who says she is a lesbian, and lives with a woman, is shoe-horned in as a love interest. She's gay ffs. She may sleep with people for money (though I don't know if she does do the whole hog or just 'dominates' them), she may mess with Sherlock's head knowing she can use her sexuality as his weakness but if she is gay she's not going to be having liaisons with him. If she's not actually gay why have her saying that she is? Why does John, who has a gay sister, seem so adamant that Irene is interested in Sherlock when he's the one she told she as gay. If you're going to have a gay character in your show, have her be gay. 

[bedelia1984]

That's not too bad, I was expecting something more disturbing - that's just messing with each other's heads. I don't think they meet every six months, that's a bit daft. 

 

This isn't aimed at anyone - just at the show - It annoys me that Irene, who says she is a lesbian, and lives with a woman, is shoe-horned in as a love interest. She's gay ffs. She may sleep with people for money (though I don't know if she does do the whole hog or just 'dominates' them), she may mess with Sherlock's head knowing she can use her sexuality as his weakness but if she is gay she's not going to be having liaisons with him. If she's not actually gay why have her saying that she is? Why does John, who has a gay sister, seem so adamant that Irene is interested in Sherlock when he's the one she told she as gay. If you're going to have a gay character in your show, have her be gay. 

 

The bit this got really bad for me was when she made 'Sher'-locked her password (I still can't believe Moffat thought this was a clever device. I'm pretty sure there are 13 year old girls with more password savvy than that). How does someone go from being a lesbian to being so infatuated with a guy you pin your whole life on using his name as a password, before you have even met him in person? 

[Redbeard]

What annoys me about the whole Irene thing is that she is such a stereo-typical femme-fatale type...and THAT is the person who interests Sherlock Holmes.  It's just so ordinary.  Why not go in a different direction with Irene if they wanted her to be the person that intrigues him.   Something different and interesting.  But no she has to be fascinating because - nudity and sexuality.  Ho hum.  Like every other show out there.   She takes her clothes off and bam - Sherlock's intrigued. Gag. I expected more of Sherlock.    

[Arcadia]

That's not too bad, I was expecting something more disturbing - that's just messing with each other's heads. I don't think they meet every six months, that's a bit daft. 

 

This isn't aimed at anyone - just at the show - It annoys me that Irene, who says she is a lesbian, and lives with a woman, is shoe-horned in as a love interest. She's gay ffs. She may sleep with people for money (though I don't know if she does do the whole hog or just 'dominates' them), she may mess with Sherlock's head knowing she can use her sexuality as his weakness but if she is gay she's not going to be having liaisons with him. If she's not actually gay why have her saying that she is? Why does John, who has a gay sister, seem so adamant that Irene is interested in Sherlock when he's the one she told she as gay. If you're going to have a gay character in your show, have her be gay. 

Ex-ACT-lyyyy! I mean, I get that Sherlock is hot as H, especially in that episode (it would seem that a woman's attention brings out the sexiness!) ... but really, he's not that good, is he? Sheez.

[Arcadia]

What annoys me about the whole Irene thing is that she is such a stereo-typical femme-fatale type...and THAT is the person who interests Sherlock Holmes.  It's just so ordinary.  Why not go in a different direction with Irene if they wanted her to be the person that intrigues him.   Something different and interesting.  But no she has to be fascinating because - nudity and sexuality.  Ho hum.  Like every other show out there.   She takes her clothes off and bam - Sherlock's intrigued. Gag. I expected more of Sherlock.

Well, he’s never knowingly under-clichéd, is he?

 

In Sherlock's defense, I do believe they tried to show that he didn't become truly interested in her until she demonstrated that she could best him. And I agree with Boton, I think Sherlock really is alarmed by sex, in spite of his protestations to the contrary. So she successfully threw him off balance by appearing naked and pretending to seduce him, and that didn't necessarily have anything to do with being a domin8trix; any woman with the proper nerve could have done that. But then she kept him off balance, and kept winning their little fencing matches, and I think that's supposed to be what attracted him.

 

But having said all that, I agree ... even after all this time, every time I hear "domin8trix", I roll my eyes. Oh fer gawd's sake, do we really have to drag kinky sex into the equation? Can't she just be smart, period? *sigh*

[J.P.]

 But no she has to be fascinating because - nudity and sexuality.  Ho hum.  Like every other show out there.   She takes her clothes off and bam - Sherlock's intrigued. Gag. I expected more of Sherlock.    

 

Hmmm. Didn't see it like that. To me she is trying her usual MO on Sherlock, which doesn't work. Which makes him intriguing to her. On the other hand she (because she works with Moriarty - something that Sherlock doesn't know until the very end) is still one step ahead of him, knows that the vicar is a trick etc. which makes her intriguing to him.

In the end she is attracted to him despite being gay, and he is attracted to her despite being… whatever he is.

 

And to me it's still about wits, not sex. It's entertaining for both of them. The first comparison I can think of, is attending milongas with your gay friend of opposite sex, because you both love dancing tango.

 

And I still can imagine them texting each other out of a very special sentiment, a kind of game, in which a vague vision is better than the reality ever could be, so it's better not to spoil it by trying to make it true.

 

If they ever meet, they probably play chess. ;)

[Arcadia]

Yeah, that too.  But I still don't like what her being a dom says about what women have to be like in order to attract smart men. Maybe if I hadn't seen this same scenario play out several times before....

[J.P.]

So she successfully threw him off balance by appearing naked and pretending to seduce him, and that didn't necessarily have anything to do with being a domin8trix; any woman with the proper nerve could have done that. But then she kept him off balance, and kept winning their little fencing matches, and I think that's supposed to be what attracted him.

 

Honestly, she would trow me of by appearing naked out of the blue. And Mycroft too. :P

 

But having said all that, I agree ... even after all this time, every time I hear "domin8trix", I roll my eyes. Oh fer gawd's sake, do we really have to drag kinky sex into the equation? Can't she just be smart, period? *sigh*

 

They needed something special, so she can have all the secrets she get from the important people. First, she need them "distracted" (tied up or knocked out ;)) to get to their sources, second - being a client of a domlnatrix is a much better pressure point that just using the usual service. All that photos of them in very compromising positions

 

Ah... is it still a thread about John?

[Pseudonym]

It's definitely more a battle of wits that attracts them, in my opinion, than physicality. In which case it doesn't matter what they are, orientation wise. Which is likely why the idea that they are sneaking away to have the odd illicit rendezvous bugs me.