John Watson

[J.P.]

Was watching a bit of TEH again and was reminded that John hit Sherlock very hard after trying to strangle him twice in it. We have seen it coming.

[Pseudonym]

He also head-butted him. :(

[Surelock]

And those scenes of John hitting Sherlock in The Empty Hearse were supposed to be funny and make the viewer laugh. 

 

Looks like Moffat has a 'broad' sense of humour.

 

[gerry]

 

... I'm curious why you feel the coffin scene would affect John's decision about Molly either way?

Can't speak for VBS, but seems to me that hearing Sherlock and Molly say "I love you" to each other would -- minimally -- make John stop and think before putting the move on Molly. Guys seem to have an unwritten code against dating a friend's gal, or gal the friend has his eye on, or even the friend's ex-gal.

That makes more sense to me. I thought the OP was specifically talking about the coffin part of the scene which confused me. I still think that even if the coffin scene didn't happen that John wouldn't have any interest in Molly since she's been hung up on Sherlock for so long.

 

Regarding the unwritten guy code, I agree it exists but does Molly qualify as that gal for Sherlock? Though I'm sure that would depend on what Sherlock would have told John about the coffin test after getting back to normal.

[bedelia1984]

Was watching a bit of TEH again and was reminded that John hit Sherlock very hard after trying to strangle him twice in it. We have seen it coming.

 

Yes I think a lot of it has to do with the comic-book style approach to action that the series has gradually moved towards. Unfortunately the realism of the show and John's characterisation has suffered in the process. Though you could look at Sherlock's shooting of Magnussen, and Mary's of Sherlock, and argue that both of their characters were compromised too.

 

 

 

...Regarding the unwritten guy code, I agree it exists but does Molly qualify as that gal for Sherlock? Though I'm sure that would depend on what Sherlock would have told John about the coffin test after getting back to normal.

 

 

It would be pretty embarrassing for John to make a move and get turned down by someone who prefers his best friend. That said, I would think John capable of making any manner of unwise romantic decision, maybe especially so in an emotional spiral after losing Mary. If Molly was home with him and Rosie a lot, I could see him getting confusing feelings. I would hope the show would never go there.

 

If John really thought Sherlock even maybe liked Molly, as Carol says, I don't think he'd ever pursue anything with her. I think John seems quite confused about Sherlock's feelings about women in general, and not without good reason. I doubt the coffin/ I love you exchange has made things clearer for him at any rate.

 

I'm also not sure that John would ask Sherlock about the whole coffin thing, just because he could tell the whole experience was invasive, and why re-open the wound? And if he did ask, I don't think Sherlock would prove forthcoming.

[Pseudonym]

And those scenes of John hitting Sherlock in The Empty Hearse were supposed to be funny and make the viewer laugh. 

 

Looks like Moffat has a 'broad' sense of humour.

 

I never found it very funny. Did anyone find it funny? Was it really meant to be funny? I guess so, from the way it was edited together. God, since it's written by two blokes their idea of male friendship seems pretty messed up.

[bedelia1984]

I don't find any of the punching funny, though I agree we are supposed to.

 

At least in TEH there was some sense of Sherlock wanting to provoke a row with John, (perhaps preferring some physical rough and tumble to an emotional heart to heart about how he's hurt John) but in TLD it seemed more distasteful because of the fact Sherlock is unwell and lying on the ground.

[Surelock]

 

And those scenes of John hitting Sherlock in The Empty Hearse were supposed to be funny and make the viewer laugh. 

 

Looks like Moffat has a 'broad' sense of humour.

 

I never found it very funny. Did anyone find it funny? Was it really meant to be funny? I guess so, from the way it was edited together. God, since it's written by two blokes their idea of male friendship seems pretty messed up.

 

 

I thought it was kind of funny the first time I saw it but maybe that's just because I'm a guy.

 

Tbh I don't really mind the violence involving Sherlock and/or John in the series as much as some of the other users on this forum do. From what I've seen, a lot of users on this forum seems to dislike at least one violent scene involving Sherlock and/or John whether it be Sherlock shooting Magnussen, John beating up Sherlock etc.

 

From a male perspective, I can tell you that a lot of men use violence to show affection for one another. If a guy hasn't had a physical fight with his friend yet then his friendship just isn't that strong. Personally I've fought with all of my close male friends at least once.

 

That's how I interpret John punching Sherlock in The Empty Hearse and The Lying Detective. I don't see it as John not caring about Sherlock's welfare. I see it more as a way for John to demonstrate how much he cares about Sherlock. It's a way for John to say how much he looks up to him, trusts him etc. 

 

I know this may sound bizarre but if you're a male that has fought with his friends, this makes more sense. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Moffat and Gatiss fought each other in the past the same way they get John to fight Sherlock. I could see them giving each other bloody noses etc.

[Pseudonym]

I have a lot more male friends than female friends and none of my male friends have ever been in a fight or punched each other. Yea, they've had some pretty nasty arguments but nothing physical. And I really can't see Gatiss and Moffat hitting each other either.

[Arcadia]

I'm afraid I found it very funny (in TEH, I mean) and even funnier in ASiB -- I absolutely howled with laughter at that one. But I also confess I didn't take it very literally in either one. I simply accepted it as exaggeration for the sake of a laugh.

 

I took it very literally in TLD, on the other hand, as I believe we were meant to. I doubt we're even supposed to connect the various incidents, although it's possible they wanted to shake us up by turning the "joke" on its head. At any rate, it was shown in an entirely different manner in TLD ... as one continuous, agonizingly sustained attack, not as the series of jump cuts they used to represent the other rumpuses. We were supposed to be disturbed by it.

 

To me, the incidents that are more similar to the beating in TLD are the verbal assaults ... the "you're a drama queen" in TSo3, and that "tell me, you pompous prick, or I’ll punch your lights out" in TAB. That last one in particular was delivered with such venom that it really shook me. I still haven't quite figured out where that came from.

[gerry]

I'm also not sure that John would ask Sherlock about the whole coffin thing, just because he could tell the whole experience was invasive, and why re-open the wound? And if he did ask, I don't think Sherlock would prove forthcoming.

John has been shown to consistently ask Sherlock questions about Irene before and after she "died" in SIB and since so I don't know why he wouldn't ask Sherlock about that exchange though I agree Sherlock probably wouldn't be honest about it even if he did. Then again I don't know why it would be a wound for Sherlock but maybe I just view that scene differently?

[gerry]

I don't find any of the punching funny, though I agree we are supposed to.

 

At least in TEH there was some sense of Sherlock wanting to provoke a row with John, (perhaps preferring some physical rough and tumble to an emotional heart to heart about how he's hurt John) but in TLD it seemed more distasteful because of the fact Sherlock is unwell and lying on the ground.

I have always gotten the sense that TEH was intended to be funny but not TLD. TLD was about John's grieving and Sherlock wanting him to release his anger. I think in TLD you're intended to be disturbed by it but understand the reasons behind it like Sherlock did.

[gerry]

 

 

 

 

And those scenes of John hitting Sherlock in The Empty Hearse were supposed to be funny and make the viewer laugh.

 

Looks like Moffat has a 'broad' sense of humour.

I never found it very funny. Did anyone find it funny? Was it really meant to be funny? I guess so, from the way it was edited together. God, since it's written by two blokes their idea of male friendship seems pretty messed up.

I thought it was kind of funny the first time I saw it but maybe that's just because I'm a guy.

I'm a woman but I found it funny too and I did upon subsequent viewings.

 

The only violence on this show that really bothered me was the CAM shooting because that was murder, not just violence. It was about an element of morality and taking the easy way out so to speak.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm afraid I found it very funny (in TEH, I mean) and even funnier in ASiB -- I absolutely howled with laughter at that one. But I also confess I didn't take it very literally in either one. I simply accepted it as exaggeration for the sake of a laugh.

 

I took it very literally in TLD, on the other hand, as I believe we were meant to. I doubt we're even supposed to connect the various incidents....

Agreed.

[Arcadia]

The only violence on this show that really bothered me was the CAM shooting because that was murder, not just violence. It was about an element of morality and taking the easy way out so to speak.

Same same. I've always appreciated that, in spite of its being a smart, "adult" show, the violence in Sherlock has always been pretty PG. I don't need to see gore flying to know that murder is horrific. But the whole CAM thing ... agghhh, don't get me started. 

[gerry]

Moffat's attitude about that scene make that scene worse for me. I think I should stay away from Moffat interviews though because they always seem to annoy me....

[Arcadia]

I have no problem when I can hear his voice, and therefore, his intonation. But yeah, in print, he's often infuriating.

[Surelock]

Just be thankful that nobody has interviewed Moffat on John punching Sherlock in The Lying Detective. Imagine if someone had asked Moffat about how wrong it was for John to hurt Sherlock so badly and express no strong remorse. I can see Moffat answering by saying something like:

 

'Come on, they're men. Every man knows that you need punch ups in a bromance. There was no need for John to feel really guilty about it. All men would have reacted like him. Even if I was in his situation, I would have done the exact same thing without any hesitation.'

[Arcadia]

Actually, there is such a statement, isn't there? Or maybe I'm thinking of his remarks about Molly. Gah, I can't even trust my own memory tonite....

[bedelia1984]

 

I'm also not sure that John would ask Sherlock about the whole coffin thing, just because he could tell the whole experience was invasive, and why re-open the wound? And if he did ask, I don't think Sherlock would prove forthcoming.

John has been shown to consistently ask Sherlock questions about Irene before and after she "died" in SIB and since so I don't know why he wouldn't ask Sherlock about that exchange though I agree Sherlock probably wouldn't be honest about it even if he did. Then again I don't know why it would be a wound for Sherlock but maybe I just view that scene differently?

 

 

I think that because Sherlock lost his cool directly after and described the experience as vivisection, that would be enough for John to know that the whole thing was too close to the bone, and not to bring it up (unless something else gave him an in in the future, he is nosy, I have to allow).

 

Then, also, I do think part of the discomfort of the coffin scene was that Sherlock's audience for it are the two guys whose opinion he really cares about- and now he would possibly worry about how he would see him, whether they would doubt his rationality etc.

 

About Irene, I think a lot of John's curiosity about Irene stems from the mystery surrounding her, and her profession. With Molly, he's her friend too, and perhaps he might feel it was crossing a line to get involved in whatever happens there- unless he can see a clear sign Sherlock has upset her, in which case he will usually step in.

 

 

Same same. I've always appreciated that, in spite of its being a smart, "adult" show, the violence in Sherlock has always been pretty PG. I don't need to see gore flying to know that murder is horrific. But the whole CAM thing ... agghhh, don't get me started. 

 

Yep. TEH has a bit of slapstick (as I see it) which is pretty harmless, and same for SiB, but HLV and TLD are in a different league. 

[gerry]

 

 

 

I'm also not sure that John would ask Sherlock about the whole coffin thing, just because he could tell the whole experience was invasive, and why re-open the wound? And if he did ask, I don't think Sherlock would prove forthcoming.

John has been shown to consistently ask Sherlock questions about Irene before and after she "died" in SIB and since so I don't know why he wouldn't ask Sherlock about that exchange though I agree Sherlock probably wouldn't be honest about it even if he did. Then again I don't know why it would be a wound for Sherlock but maybe I just view that scene differently?

I think that because Sherlock lost his cool directly after and described the experience as vivisection, that would be enough for John to know that the whole thing was too close to the bone, and not to bring it up (unless something else gave him an in in the future, he is nosy, I have to allow).

 

Then, also, I do think part of the discomfort of the coffin scene was that Sherlock's audience for it are the two guys whose opinion he really cares about- and now he would possibly worry about how he would see him, whether they would doubt his rationality etc.

 

About Irene, I think a lot of John's curiosity about Irene stems from the mystery surrounding her, and her profession. With Molly, he's her friend too, and perhaps he might feel it was crossing a line to get involved in whatever happens there- unless he can see a clear sign Sherlock has upset her, in which case he will usually step in.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by doubting his rationality. Meaning they'd think he was overly emotional now and couldn't deduce? I don't know, that thought never crossed my mind given he solved the final problem without John's or Mycroft's help in the end.

 

Honestly, I think that because it was a vivisection and John was there to witness the experience with Sherlock, John would be more comfortable approaching him about it. If BC is believed Sherlock hasn't decided anything about what the coffin smashing means yet so I doubt he'd discuss the topic with John but I just can't see John resisting the urge to try. If I were John I'm not sure I'd be able to resist either! Wouldn't you have many questions?

 

I don't think the woman in question is what John is curious about, it's whether Sherlock is capable of having "ordinary" male feelings about a woman, i.e. sexual and/or romantic. It reminds me of that scene in SiB with Mycroft and John when they were discussing whether Sherlock should know if Irene is dead and whether Sherlock was "that" kind of man. Neither Mycroft or John seemed sure either way, lol. It has always struck me interesting that for as close as John and Mycroft are to Sherlock, they are seem so unsure of who Sherlock is. I guess that's the crux of Sherlock being such a good liar who spends so much time hiding his vulnerability.

[bedelia1984]

 

...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by doubting his rationality. Meaning they'd think he was overly emotional now and couldn't deduce? I don't know, that thought never crossed my mind given he solved the final problem without John's or Mycroft's help in the end.

 

Honestly, I think that because it was a vivisection and John was there to witness the experience with Sherlock, John would be more comfortable approaching him about it. If BC is believed Sherlock hasn't decided anything about what the coffin smashing means yet so I doubt he'd discuss the topic with John but I just can't see John resisting the urge to try. If I were John I'm not sure I'd be able to resist either! Wouldn't you have many questions?

 

I don't think the woman in question is what John is curious about, it's whether Sherlock is capable of having "ordinary" male feelings about a woman, i.e. sexual and/or romantic. It reminds me of that scene in SiB with Mycroft and John when they were discussing whether Sherlock should know if Irene is dead and whether Sherlock was "that" kind of man. Neither Mycroft or John seemed sure either way, lol. It has always struck me interesting that for as close as John and Mycroft are to Sherlock, they are seem so unsure of who Sherlock is. I guess that's the crux of Sherlock being such a good liar who spends so much time hiding his vulnerability.

 

 

Well, more that Sherlock portrays himself to both John and Mycroft as being above all that sentimental business, and (this part might sound a bit mad) I think he might feel he's somehow diminished in their eyes, and his own, if he doesn't hold himself to that standard. I never saw Sherlock as someone who doesn't feel, but rather someone who holds the ideal of 'cold reason' above all else- and it is so central to how he sees himself, and how he wants the world to see him, that I think it would be extra hard for him to have the cracks start to appear, in front of John and (even worse in his eyes) Mycroft. It's not even that it is embarrassment exactly- but it leaves him so, so far outside his comfort zone, and therefore quite vulnerable. That feeling BC describes of being undecided, in my view would be a really discomfiting place for Sherlock to be, especially so with an audience.

 

As much as the scene was an attack on Molly's dignity, it was an attack in Sherlock's too- in the sense that whatever he's feeling here is likely something he wanted kept private (and because I read the situation that way, for me John wouldn't continue on that violation of privacy by pulling at the threads even more). Which is not to say he wouldn't love to know what is going on, much as I would.

 

It is nice that in said scene that you can see both John and Mycroft are a bit confused about how Sherlock is actually taking this turn of events, but are supportive nonetheless- because so much nonsense has passed between Mycroft and Sherlock about sentiment as a defect found on the losing side etc.

 

About Irene, I thought the part of the scene you mention that was really telling was when Sherlock asked for the phone. To me, that was an admission on his part to John that yes, he did have feelings for Irene. It was really significant to me that he can trust John with that information about himself. And it makes a sort of sense that in season four John would still bring up Irene, because that was in some ways the last he had heard about Sherlock's feelings for a woman.

[Carol the Dabbler]

It occurs to me that what some of you are calling John's "nosiness" may simply be part of his Doctor Mode. Like in "Scandal," when he says "So, she's alive then -- how are we feeling about that?" That sure sounds like a "doctor's We" to me (as in, "How are *we* this morning?").

[bedelia1984]

Yes, a big part of it is that, John's doctor side, caring for and looking after Sherlock. (And then there is probably also that very small part of him that can't help but wonder what it would be like to at least have had the chance to sleep with Irene Adler.)

[gerry]

When have you seen John shown any attraction or interest in Irene?