John Watson

[Arcadia]

Except that Sherlock's already forgiven John for it ... heck, he was forgiving John even as the beating took place. I suppose that's noble and all of Sherlock, but given the history of these two never seeming to discuss important stuff, I'm not sure forgiveness is what John needs. What he needs, I think, is another Big Moment; that is, another chance to be the one riding to the rescue, like he did in ASiP ... and for real, this time, not just falling into place in some scheme Sherlock dreams up.

[Boton]

You know, as I thought about this thread the other night, I did really take a little comfort from the idea that John perhaps already viewed Sherlock as a "fellow soldier" (just like he reiterated in TFP), and a soldier would kill for his comrade very quickly.  I still am disappointed in him for not devising a more elegant solution, but at least that logic leaves me a little less put out.  So thanks, guys.

[Arcadia]

You know, I've always had trouble with that "soldiers" p.o.v., even though Mycroft introduced the idea right in the first episode. I guess I just don't equate solving crimes with a battlefield in my own mind. But it certainly seems to be what Moftiss want us to believe about our boys, so I try to go along with it. Although to me it makes them more like little boys playing war than anything else; something else I don't think Moftiss intended!

 

If they come back, what I would like to see is that Sherlock's new-found "humility" has also made him realize he's nowhere near the level of soldier, and we can get back to "merely" crime-solving. It's sort of like when Ajay disses the police by saying (I paraphrase) "I'm a professional. You're just the police." I noticed Sherlock placed himself on the same level as Ajay, but I don't think he is. Okay, that's not quite right ... I don't want him to be. I want him to be something ... less deadly. Less serious. It's hard for me to giggle at what soldiers have to do.

 

And as for John; I've always had a hard time buying that he's more soldier than doctor. Maybe I just watched too many episodes of MASH and think all Army doctors are like Hawkeye Pierce. But I'd prefer to see more of the doctor side, it's simply more interesting to me.

 

There was this one little moment in TAB, when Sir Eustaces advances threateningly in Sherlock's direction, and John steps between them, as if he's Sherlock's bodyguard. I loved that, it's one of my favorite bits in the whole episode. That's the John I want to see; fearless, loyal, sensible, not violent but ready to defend. And another favorite moment was when he told Sherlock to live up to a higher standard. That's the moral guidance I want to see.

 

Interesting that both those moments are in Sherlock's mind .... apparently I'm not the only one who wants to see John be the hero .....

[Boton]

You know, I've always had trouble with that "soldiers" p.o.v., even though Mycroft introduced the idea right in the first episode. I guess I just don't equate solving crimes with a battlefield in my own mind. But it certainly seems to be what Moftiss want us to believe about our boys, so I try to go along with it. Although to me it makes them more like little boys playing war than anything else; something else I don't think Moftiss intended!

 

...

 

And as for John; I've always had a hard time buying that he's more soldier than doctor. Maybe I just watched too many episodes of MASH and think all Army doctors are like Hawkeye Pierce. But I'd prefer to see more of the doctor side, it's simply more interesting to me.

 

 

 

I think the first bit goes hand in hand with the idea that Moftiss are writing their own relationship, or at least their own memories. They see Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson as that wonderful, powerful hybrid of solider/pirate/superhero that many young boys play at when they are starting to fantasize about who they will become and how to use their new and developing strength as a force for good.  It reminds me of some of the stories Mr. Boton tells me about remembering his youth and what it was like for him to grow physically strong but at the same time the challenge of learning how to pull back and use his strength in productive ways.

 

As for the second bit, yes!  I would much prefer to have seen a more doctorly John Watson, because, to me, that's the interesting part of his character.  Really the only part of TSoT that I really liked was John striding into that barracks and taking charge of the care of that guard, because that was clearly something that he could do and do well that Sherlock could not, and they fell rather seamlessly into the role of Sherlock assisting John rather than the other way around.  If this show continues, I would love a case or two that relied on John's medical knowledge to solve it as much or more than Sherlock's overall smarts.

[Pseudonym]

 

There was this one little moment in TAB, when Sir Eustaces advances threateningly in Sherlock's direction, and John steps between them, as if he's Sherlock's bodyguard. I loved that, it's one of my favorite bits in the whole episode. That's the John I want to see; fearless, loyal, sensible, not violent but ready to defend. And another favorite moment was when he told Sherlock to live up to a higher standard. That's the moral guidance I want to see.

 

Interesting that both those moments are in Sherlock's mind .... apparently I'm not the only one who wants to see John be the hero .....

 

That's it, I think John should be willing to be violent if he has to be, to protect someone else, but not just for the hell of it. That's what's been missing this whole time, a John who is willing to put himself between Sherlock and danger and defend him. I can't say I really noticed that scene, but now you've brought it up I like it. :D

[Arcadia]

 

As for the second bit, yes!  I would much prefer to have seen a more doctorly John Watson, because, to me, that's the interesting part of his character.  Really the only part of TSoT that I really liked was John striding into that barracks and taking charge of the care of that guard, because that was clearly something that he could do and do well that Sherlock could not, and they fell rather seamlessly into the role of Sherlock assisting John rather than the other way around.  If this show continues, I would love a case or two that relied on John's medical knowledge to solve it as much or more than Sherlock's overall smarts.

 

Yes! Those little moments when John's actually making his own observations about the victims, like the pink lady in ASiP and the museum guard in TGG; I love those moments, it makes them equals for a time. And they've really set it up to stay that way in TFP, I'm all for seeing it play out in another season/episode/whatever they can come up with.

 

 

 

[Redbeard]

I agree I would like to see more from John in future episodes.  Also, the original Dr. Watson was a chronicler of Holmes' adventures.   Why did they scrap the "John's Blog" angle, since that was a great way to modernize that aspect of the story.   I would have liked to see them keep it up.  Or even, frame each story with a beginning or ending voice over from John, that we could presume was from a book, or blog, just as a reminder that he is recording all this and he is the reason we even know about Sherlock Holmes in the first place?  It'd be a great way to get some internal thoughts and feelings of his too. 

[Arcadia]

Yeh, I'm sad about the blog. Don't they love us anymore? 

[Pseudonym]

I think the idea that maybe John actually hadn't fully forgiven Sherlock for TRF, that they were still in a dark place whilst pretending they were fine feeds into this. I like that idea because it says it's okay the last two seasons were dark with distance between the two of them because it was deliberate not just iffy writing - I hope it was deliberate, but really I don't know. Maybe they'll say it was, but only after someone brings it up in an interview and they'll decide it's clever and adopt it.

 

However, doubts aside and assuming that was the case, then I get the impression John had distanced himself emotionally because he couldn't fully trust Sherlock anymore. They never really had that out, there was no argument or discussion (once again, unless off screen, Sherlock must have explained his reasons and the snipers at some point and they just couldn't be arsed to show us *sigh*), and I think that was part of the reason for the blog falling by the wayside. John didn't want to get dragged back into having that be his job, Sherlock and his adventures being his focus. Yes, he had a wife and baby on the way, but I don't think Mary would have had issue with the blog, I think it was John holding back and staying very much in his own sphere. I wouldn't be surprised, if it does come back, if he's writing the blog again. 

 

Exactly how TFP was meant to have fixed those lingering issues between the two of them I don't know, but judging by the compilation at the end it seems to be what we're meant to believe. 

[Arcadia]

I think the issues between them were supposed to be resolved by the end of TLD. In TFP, they're a unit again.

 

In story, John was still doing the blog. He references it in T6T, and the nurse does in TLD, although of course that's also an in-joke for the fans. It seems they just lost interest in doing it for real, for some reason. Probably too complicated to explain the time gaps.

[Pseudonym]

Is he? I must have missed it! I've said is before, but the idea of everything being resolved at the end of TLD doesn't make sense to me - I won't go on about it again. 

 

I never got into the 'real' blog. I wanted to but I didn't find it interesting enough. :(

[Boton]

I agree I would like to see more from John in future episodes.  Also, the original Dr. Watson was a chronicler of Holmes' adventures.   Why did they scrap the "John's Blog" angle, since that was a great way to modernize that aspect of the story.   I would have liked to see them keep it up.  Or even, frame each story with a beginning or ending voice over from John, that we could presume was from a book, or blog, just as a reminder that he is recording all this and he is the reason we even know about Sherlock Holmes in the first place?  It'd be a great way to get some internal thoughts and feelings of his too. 

 

I would like to see the blog come back too, both the physical blog and John's own referencing of it. (Although, it was kind of sly, since they stopped doing it in RL, that they had someone comment in TLD that it had really gone downhill.)  I think part of the working away from the blog is the idea that, in most Sherlock Holmes stories that use the Boswell role, you assume that everything that happens is filtered through John's eyes, because the stories are supposed to be recreations of his column (or blog, if you like). I think it's a good idea that we have things happen that undeniably have to have objectively happened and not just be a fantasy of John's or John's making things pretty for the blog.  But that wouldn't stop them from having John typing away and the text coming up over his laptop as he write up a previous case while they're talking about a new one, and that I'd like.

[Pseudonym]

I don't suppose it would happen, but I'd like to see an episode with a case, and then have John's detailed write up about it where things are slightly different - like he omits any breaking and entering and says they found the information another way, in the episode Sherlock twists his ankle tripping over a cat whilst in the story he gets heroically tackled by the perp... I'd love a slightly comedic different between John's take and the actual episode. 

 

It would be even better if the blog came out first, and then we see the true events in the episode later in the week. :D

[Carol the Dabbler]

Is he? I must have missed it!

 

I never got into the 'real' blog. I wanted to but I didn't find it interesting enough. :(

I like having John's blog available, and it's kinda fun to read, but John is clearly a better doctor than writer!

 

Nevertheless, I was disappointed that I could not read the ends of the entries that we'd seen the beginnings of in the S4 episodes.

 

I liked loved Watson's voiceovers in TAB, but I suspect they would feel out of place in a modern-day episode. So I hope they continue the on-screen blog crawls, and ideally bring back the online blog.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yes to the blog, I enjoy reading that.

 

Late to the discussion, I am on the side of being 'okay' with what John did in SIP (although it's a wonder that almost everyone shrugs it off so easily), I understand his reasoning and I'd probably do the same in his situation.

I am 'okay' with what Sherlock did to Magnussen, worse, I'm on Moffat side this time. And I'd probably do the same too.

Hopefully I would never be in both situation.

 

Personal assessment, I don't think I am a bad person, obviously not a caring, sensitive, empathetic one, but I do good things more than bad. The bad category falls into 'not doing good/anything' instead of actually do bad things. Most of my confrontations are done because I am standing up for something/someone. I don't remember the last time I lied except if you count a quick 'sure' when someone was kind enough to ask to meet again, but they probably lie too.

 

But, if anyone, ever intended to harm my family or friends in serious way, I'd go berserk to defend them, that is my line that shouldn't be crossed. I probably said it somewhere before, I challenged two big guys to fight in middle of the street because they were trying to threaten and intimidate my friends, hurling verbal abuses (eta: calling us names, weak defenseless women and said they would beat us) and trying to extort money from traffic incident that was mostly their fault. I wasn't even that close to them, and I knew nothing about proper self defense, I just lost my mind. They backed out.

With the male housemates, I was waiting in the dark with wire hanger preparing to dig the robber's eyes out should they came to visit after they finished robbing our neighbor at gun point. We didn't have phone or anything else for weapon, and my two female friends were so frightened, crying and hiding in the corner.

I was the one up behind the door waiting with my dad's air rifle when we heard voices coming up from outside of our shop residence middle of the night. No, that thing doesn't kill, it probably just startles someone enough to give you time for next moves.

 

All those, I didn't even know if I had the skills or abilities to do the things I planned to do, but what drove me was not common sense or moral, not even fear but anger and desire to protect friends/family to get rid of parasitic good-for-nothing bad guys, they don't have the right to harm anyone. That was my only goal in those situation and I was fixed to do it, losing bits of mind maybe.

So yah, I would. Not the best decision, maybe, but even if I think back, there were hardly anything I could do differently. Luckily, we were spared from further harm.

 

So, as we had discussed many times, that is how I see Sherlock's action. Completely understandable from my POV. That probably makes my morality questionable, but nah, I'd live with that.

 

Having said those, I actually understand the reasoning from opposite view, because the arguments make sense. I think it's a good balance and we should have that balance, it's just how we are wired.

And having agreed to both murder and said I would do the same, I can't forgive the beating, I had my explanations, I have nothing more to say. What does it say about me, nah, I don't really care. My priority and how I view things might be f*ed up, but I am ordinary person who try not to harm anyone and cause traffic jam, therefore I expect the same from others.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Not to forget, welcome mishab!

Is there a special meaning to your username?

Your avatar looks fun. :p

 

Hope to see you around.

[mishab]

Not to forget, welcome mishab!

Is there a special meaning to your username?

Your avatar looks fun. :P

 

Hope to see you around.

 

No special meaning, just an abbreviation of my name

 

And I adore Martin's winking pics, so used it as my avatar!  

[Pseudonym]

Does John, at any point in the series, say 'cor'? I've read quite a few fics that have him saying it recently and it really annoys me. To me 'cor' is something from a bad Cockney Dick Van Dyke style accent not something real people say unless it's half in jest. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Don't offhand recall any "cor" from John, but he does say "blimey" at least once (when he thinks their food delivery is there already, in Blind Banker).

[Pseudonym]

I don't find blimey as weird as cor. I don't know where this thing of him saying cor has come from. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Does anybody actually say "cor"? I've never heard it, either in the UK (a total of a couple months) or from British people I've known here.

 

As for Fanfic John, I'm gonna guess it's American writers trying to make him sound "English," based on some movies they've seen.

[Pseudonym]

I can't think of anyone who would, it's like something a street urchin would say in a Dickens adaptation. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I would associate it with colorful old ladies, but maybe we've seen different movies. ;)

[Pseudonym]

Colourful old ladies? I can't even imagine that!  ^_^

[T.o.b.y]

I think the idea that maybe John actually hadn't fully forgiven Sherlock for TRF, that they were still in a dark place whilst pretending they were fine feeds into this. I like that idea because it says it's okay the last two seasons were dark with distance between the two of them because it was deliberate not just iffy writing - I hope it was deliberate, but really I don't know. Maybe they'll say it was, but only after someone brings it up in an interview and they'll decide it's clever and adopt it.

 

However, doubts aside and assuming that was the case, then I get the impression John had distanced himself emotionally because he couldn't fully trust Sherlock anymore. They never really had that out, there was no argument or discussion (once again, unless off screen, Sherlock must have explained his reasons and the snipers at some point and they just couldn't be arsed to show us *sigh*), and I think that was part of the reason for the blog falling by the wayside. John didn't want to get dragged back into having that be his job, Sherlock and his adventures being his focus. Yes, he had a wife and baby on the way, but I don't think Mary would have had issue with the blog, I think it was John holding back and staying very much in his own sphere.

 

Yes, me too. I think when Sherlock "died", he did something partly irreversible to John. The fake suicide is an even greater betrayal of the trust John struggles with anyway in my opinion than Mary keeping her past secret. Mary only hid the truth (although John insists that she "lied" to him), Sherlock deliberately acted out the cruelest charade I could possibly imagine.

 

And before that, he didn't exactly behave very well towards him. My interpretation of John in series 3 and 4 is that he still sees the old Sherlock, the sociopath who used him for experiments, belittled him on every occasion and thought it would be funny to pretend he jumped off a roof. And because he knows Sherlock to be such a fiendishly good actor, he can never be sure whether any apparent warmth or decency he's exhibiting now is for real.