John Watson

[Arcadia]

Except that he "knows" by the end of S4, don't you think?

 

I just re-read a remark Moffat made; that the events of T6T and TLD were mostly healed, but will always lie between them. I thought that was interesting insight, to acknowledge that they'd hurt each other really badly, and they might forgive but not forget. I'll try to find that interview again, it was good.

[Pseudonym]

That would be good, not just burying everything, though even if it did come back they would probably never show that aspect of it. Seems the harm Sherlock deals to John is emotional and harm dealt by John is emotional and physical. It's a bit twisted but I kind of want Sherlock to thump John at some point so they can be even. 

 

 

I'm not a violent person... honest. 

 

I guess it reaches a point where you have to draw a line under everything, and just say 'you did bad things, I did bad things, we both hurt each other, let's stop keeping track and put it all behind us.' But yup, you can't forget all that bad crap went down - as you said forgive but not forget. 

[Arcadia]

Here we go: We were determined to make it as difficult for us as possible [as writers] to take on the following things: We will do grief in a big way, we will have the rift between them, and it will be real and will never completely go away — because you’ll always think about that, however imperishable that friendship is.

http://www.blastr.com/2017-1-2/sherlock-showrunner-steven-moffat-season-4-premiere-shocker

 

I like that, I like that all is not just sweetness and light between them from this point on; they still have to work at it. Because that makes it more of a friendship to me, that they're willing to work on overcoming their problems with each other, instead of just hanging out together because it's easy.

[Pseudonym]

I was going to say I don't think either of them are easy to hang out with, but then I wonder what are either of them actually getting out of the friendship at this point? John would have been happier and healthier had he just kept Sherlock as a casual acquaintance after his resurrection. Sherlock might have been sad, but it's not like the following couple of years have brought him much happiness anyway.

[Arcadia]

Companionship? In spite of themselves, they are still social creatures, especially Sherlock. I think he was starved for human interaction before John.

 

By the way, it looks like we will be merging this thread and the other "S4" character threads with their "main" threads soon, so be on the lookout for the name change.

[Pseudonym]

Okee dokee. 

 

Sherlock may not be capable, but if I were John I think I'd hunt out new friends. Besides he has Mary.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Companionship? In spite of themselves, they are still social creatures, especially Sherlock. I think he was starved for human interaction before John.

 

Sherlock may not be capable, but if I were John I think I'd hunt out new friends. Besides he has Mary.

 

Well, he had Mary.  :(

 

There's also validation.  It's very comforting to associate with people who take you seriously and don't think of you as a weirdo or a freak (which may be one reason why Sherlock never married Sally Donovan).  It's also comforting to associate with people who have a shared history with you, and neither man seems to have shared much previously.  They've both been loners of sorts (Sherlock because he has apparently prided himself on being antisocial, and John because he's just returned from Afghanistan -- probably to find that all his old friends now have new friends).  As Henry says in "Hounds," "Well, mates are mates, aren't they?"

[Pseudonym]

if you're a following a thread, say this one, and it gets merged with the existing John thread am I right in thinking I'll have to follow that one instead because my alerts for this thread will have gone? Or will the 'following' list also be merged? Hope that makes sense!

[Boton]

I think there are some friendships - not all of them, by any means, but some - that grow stronger in the face of shared tragedy, even if the tragedy is of their own making.  Possibly bad example, but there are marriages that can take an episode of infidelity and use it to become stronger.  (Not really sure how, but it does happen.)  I wonder if Sherlock and John just have such a strong basis for a friendship that the problems did not drive them apart.

 

Regarding TRF, I've never really thought that John was so permanently damaged by the whole thing.  I think he missed his best friend terribly while Sherlock was dead, I think his grieving was deep and genuine, and I think his anger at the return was intense and wholly-justified.  But I think he got over it after the train car.  I keep thinking, if I had lost someone so important to me, and I later found out it was a ruse, I would be angry, but there definitely would come a point at which I was so grateful to have that person back that the anger would recede.  

[Arcadia]

if you're a following a thread, say this one, and it gets merged with the existing John thread am I right in thinking I'll have to follow that one instead because my alerts for this thread will have gone? Or will the 'following' list also be merged? Hope that makes sense!

Good question, I'll see if I can find out. But my instinct is yes, you'll have to follow that one. But perhaps the forum software is smarter than I give it credit for.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I think he was starved for human interaction before John.

 

Was he?

I've never thought that way.

I think he was fine, he just needs audience.

 

   

Regarding TRF, I've never really thought that John was so permanently damaged by the whole thing.  I think he missed his best friend terribly while Sherlock was dead, I think his grieving was deep and genuine, and I think his anger at the return was intense and wholly-justified.  But I think he got over it after the train car.  I keep thinking, if I had lost someone so important to me, and I later found out it was a ruse, I would be angry, but there definitely would come a point at which I was so grateful to have that person back that the anger would recede.

 

Precisely. In my mind, he had completely forgiven him, especially from the interaction we saw in TSoT. That is why i think his anger to Sherlock is exclusive S4, and that doesn't help his case in my eyes.

 

 

Other area, I read some people mentioned Jolly? Moljohn? What do you guys think?

For me, I ship zero ship in this series. I don't want to see romance, it'd be boring and ordinary, and there are many out there.

 

But John being John, he likes ladies and tries to hit on them. I do like that John probably never does that to Molly, because of Sherlock. Either he respects whatever they have, or he thinks he doesn't have a chance anyway.

And after the coffin scene, he really shouldn't. It just crosses my mind that since Molly seems to help with Rosie a lot, real bond and attraction may develop.

[Pseudonym]

Do we ever see any scenes with just her and John? Like you said, she seems to be there a lot. More than I would have thought actually, her and John never seemed particularly close and suddenly she's Godmother and looking after Rosie all the time? Do you remember in TGG she didn't even know his name when she was introducing Jim, you think since she was so enamoured with Sherlock she might have paid a bit more attention to who this bloke was that he'd been hanging around with constantly. I can't see her talking to John at all when Sherlock was dead, partly because she knew the truth, and partly because they didn't have any connection without Sherlock. Then John gets married, invites this vague acquaintance to the wedding and they make her Godmother? I don't get where this closeness is meant to have happened. Sure she did go to their Christmas party, but obviously that was just to see Sherlock, same when Sherlock came back and she brought Tom - both of those demonstrate a closeness (on her side at least) to Sherlock rather than to John.

[Arcadia]

 

if you're a following a thread, say this one, and it gets merged with the existing John thread am I right in thinking I'll have to follow that one instead because my alerts for this thread will have gone? Or will the 'following' list also be merged? Hope that makes sense!

Good question, I'll see if I can find out. But my instinct is yes, you'll have to follow that one. But perhaps the forum software is smarter than I give it credit for.

 

 

Okay, no answer other than we'll just have to see what happens. Hopefully I'll get time to starting merging some threads tomorrow and then we'll know. Sorry, that's not a very good answer.

 

 

I think he was starved for human interaction before John.

Was he?

I've never thought that way.

I think he was fine, he just needs audience.

 

Maybe so, but it always struck me that, for a man who was supposed to be so unsociable, he seemed awfully eager for John to move in, and awfully quick to call him a friend. But I suppose that could also be part of needing an audience.

 

Other area, I read some people mentioned Jolly? Moljohn? What do you guys think?

For me, I ship zero ship in this series. I don't want to see romance, it'd be boring and ordinary, and there are many out there.

 

But John being John, he likes ladies and tries to hit on them. I do like that John probably never does that to Molly, because of Sherlock. Either he respects whatever they have, or he thinks he doesn't have a chance anyway.

And after the coffin scene, he really shouldn't. It just crosses my mind that since Molly seems to help with Rosie a lot, real bond and attraction may develop.

 

I found that to be a little out of the blue too. But a lot of fan fiction portrays Molly and Mary as close friends, and/or Mary always trying to be the matchmaker for Molly and Sherlock. Maybe Moftiss forgot that someone else writes all that stuff, and incorporated it into their plot?

[Pseudonym]

Ha! 

Moffat and Gatiss brainstorming: Remember that dinner party we wrote where Mary and Molly got to know each other and became really good friends? Molly would definitely help John with the baby out of her loyalty to Mary. 

[Redbeard]

Do we ever see any scenes with just her and John? Like you said, she seems to be there a lot. More than I would have thought actually, her and John never seemed particularly close and suddenly she's Godmother and looking after Rosie all the time? Do you remember in TGG she didn't even know his name when she was introducing Jim, you think since she was so enamoured with Sherlock she might have paid a bit more attention to who this bloke was that he'd been hanging around with constantly. I can't see her talking to John at all when Sherlock was dead, partly because she knew the truth, and partly because they didn't have any connection without Sherlock. Then John gets married, invites this vague acquaintance to the wedding and they make her Godmother? I don't get where this closeness is meant to have happened. Sure she did go to their Christmas party, but obviously that was just to see Sherlock, same when Sherlock came back and she brought Tom - both of those demonstrate a closeness (on her side at least) to Sherlock rather than to John.

 

I bolded the part about the Christmas party because while yes, she did attend, wouldn't it likely have been John that invited her?  He must have thought to include her because I would imagine it was John that would have arranged the whole thing, or maybe Mrs. Hudson?  I just can't see Sherlock saying "Oh goody,let's host a Christmas party" and making up a guest list.  But then again, the way he threw himself into the wedding planning,maybe he was the brains behind the party but was only playing it cool lol. 

[Pseudonym]

I think John arranged it and invited her but probably as a casual aside. In the morgue, whilst Sherlock is hunched over a body and poking at it, and Molly and John are both standing there waiting. I think he would have just said something throw away like "we're having a Christmas get together next Friday if you're free."

 

As an aside, does anyone else find John's behaviour at the party really irritating? When Sherlock gets the parcel from Irene and goes off to his room John is all 'who's the parcel from Sherlock? What's wrong Sherlock? Where are you going Sherlock?' If I were Sherlock I'd be telling him to back the f**k off, but then I'm probably even more antisocial than he is.

[bedelia1984]

 

Other area, I read some people mentioned Jolly? Moljohn? What do you guys think?

For me, I ship zero ship in this series. I don't want to see romance, it'd be boring and ordinary, and there are many out there.

 

But John being John, he likes ladies and tries to hit on them. I do like that John probably never does that to Molly, because of Sherlock. Either he respects whatever they have, or he thinks he doesn't have a chance anyway.

And after the coffin scene, he really shouldn't. It just crosses my mind that since Molly seems to help with Rosie a lot, real bond and attraction may develop.

 

I found that to be a little out of the blue too. But a lot of fan fiction portrays Molly and Mary as close friends, and/or Mary always trying to be the matchmaker for Molly and Sherlock. Maybe Moftiss forgot that someone else writes all that stuff, and incorporated it into their plot?

 

 

I have been living in fear of Jolly for quite some time.

 

I love the idea of Moftiss getting brainwashed by fanfics. Especially because it would mean that they are really in thrall to the fandom's opposed to the other way round. Was this also how Molly got promoted to doctor?

 

The best way to test it out would probably be some inconspicuous detail, like Lestrade has a a third nipple or something, and to get all the writers from across the various shipping factions to agree to add it in, and then see it it ever made it on to the show.

 

 

 

As an aside, does anyone else find John's behaviour at the party really irritating? When Sherlock gets the parcel from Irene and goes off to his room John is all 'who's the parcel from Sherlock? What's wrong Sherlock? Where are you going Sherlock?' If I were Sherlock I'd be telling him to back the f**k off, but then I'm probably even more antisocial than he is.

 

I think Sherlock was having the worst party ever. It also seemed to annoy him that Molly mentioned he was upset about John leaving for Christmas- though he more than got his own back.

[gerry]

But John being John, he likes ladies and tries to hit on them. I do like that John probably never does that to Molly, because of Sherlock. Either he respects whatever they have, or he thinks he doesn't have a chance anyway.

And after the coffin scene, he really shouldn't. It just crosses my mind that since Molly seems to help with Rosie a lot, real bond and attraction may develop.

Why would any man in Sherlock's life date Molly knowing her very long standing obvious feelings for Sherlock? Though I'm curious why you feel the coffin scene would affect John's decision about Molly either way?

[J.P.]

As an aside, does anyone else find John's behaviour at the party really irritating? When Sherlock gets the parcel from Irene and goes off to his room John is all 'who's the parcel from Sherlock? What's wrong Sherlock? Where are you going Sherlock?' If I were Sherlock I'd be telling him to back the f**k off, but then I'm probably even more antisocial than he is.

 

I think Sherlock was having the worst party ever. It also seemed to annoy him that Molly mentioned he was upset about John leaving for Christmas- though he more than got his own back.

 

Yes, exactly how I see it. Sherlock's outburst is soooo caused by the whole "let's be happy" Christmas nonsense. We've had a nice conversation about it here

Of course it was John's idea. He tried to show Sherlock a bit of "normality". -_-

 

His questions were probably his way to ask "what's wrong, Sherlock?", because even he noticed something was… at least unusual. And Sherlock closing the door just before his nose was enough of f**k off, if you ask me. In my eyes it was the most rude thing he did in the whole series. Just imagine being John in this situation. Or Anderson.

[Pseudonym]

Anderson? Where does he come into it?

 

I wouldn't be John, I'd ask once and then leave it. Which is probably why it annoys me. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

But John being John, he likes ladies and tries to hit on them. I do like that John probably never does that to Molly, because of Sherlock. Either he respects whatever they have, or he thinks he doesn't have a chance anyway.

And after the coffin scene, he really shouldn't. It just crosses my mind that since Molly seems to help with Rosie a lot, real bond and attraction may develop.

 

 Could be, though I'd think that would take a very long time.  Maybe after Sherlock has run off with Irene and Greg has remarried his ex-wife.  Not that I expect any of that to happen.

 

I found that to be a little out of the blue too. But a lot of fan fiction portrays Molly and Mary as close friends, and/or Mary always trying to be the matchmaker for Molly and Sherlock. Maybe Moftiss forgot that someone else writes all that stuff, and incorporated it into their plot?

 

Yeah, I can definitely see that -- Mary had only been Mary for five years, but she had "lots and lots of friends," so she knew how to make friends quickly.  She saw the connection between Sherlock and Molly, and decided to strengthen her own bond with Sherlock by becoming buddies with Molly.  (Not saying there was anything sneaky about it, just that's how Mary was.)  So that's how Molly gets invited to the wedding, and how she becomes co-godmother to Rosie.

 

I love the idea of Moftiss getting brainwashed by fanfics. Especially because it would mean that they are really in thrall to the fandom's opposed to the other way round. Was this also how Molly got promoted to doctor?

 

According to a blog by wellingtongoose (as well as this followup), Molly has most likely been a pathologist (i.e., a doctor) all along.  It's just that we never see her interacting with any of her co-workers (well, other than Jim), who would be the main ones to address her as "Doctor."

 

... I'm curious why you feel the coffin scene would affect John's decision about Molly either way?

Can't speak for VBS, but seems to me that hearing Sherlock and Molly say "I love you" to each other would -- minimally -- make John stop and think before putting the move on Molly.  Guys seem to have an unwritten code against dating a friend's gal, or gal the friend has his eye on, or even the friend's ex-gal.

[J.P.]

Pseud, Anderson was the first one who's got almost hit in the face with a door at the beginning of ASIP. Could be a method Sherlock usually uses to end stupid conversations.

[bedelia1984]

 

I love the idea of Moftiss getting brainwashed by fanfics. Especially because it would mean that they are really in thrall to the fandom's opposed to the other way round. Was this also how Molly got promoted to doctor?

 

According to a blog by wellingtongoose (as well as this followup), Molly has most likely been a pathologist (i.e., a doctor) all along.  It's just that we never see her interacting with any of her co-workers (well, other than Jim), who would be the main ones to address her as "Doctor."

 

 

Thanks, that makes sense. I did still think though that things got quite fanfic-y for Molly and Sherlock in Season 4- her examining him in the ambulance (she's not really that kind of doctor, right?) and also I was really struck by one of Sherlock's lines in the ILY scene "Molly, this is for a case. It’s ... it’s a sort of experiment."- seemed lifted from the tags of a fanfic.

 

 

 

I found that to be a little out of the blue too. But a lot of fan fiction portrays Molly and Mary as close friends, and/or Mary always trying to be the matchmaker for Molly and Sherlock. Maybe Moftiss forgot that someone else writes all that stuff, and incorporated it into their plot? 

 

Yeah, I can definitely see that -- Mary had only been Mary for five years, but she had "lots and lots of friends," so she knew how to make friends quickly.  She saw the connection between Sherlock and Molly, and decided to strengthen her own bond with Sherlock by becoming buddies with Molly.  (Not saying there was anything sneaky about it, just that's how Mary was.)  So that's how Molly gets invited to the wedding, and how she becomes co-godmother to Rosie.

 

 

Yes and- for some reason I have the idea that the unseen person in HLV that Molly tells about Sherlock staying with her is likely Mary. I can totally picture Mary befriending Molly to get the inside scoop on Sherlock. Which is not to say I don't believe they could also have a genuine friendship. I wish we had gotten a real scene between them.

[Pseudonym]

Pseud, Anderson was the first one who's got almost hit in the face with a door at the beginning of ASIP. Could be a method Sherlock usually uses to end stupid conversations.

 

Ah right, thanks, I was trying to think about him in conjunction with the party.

[Arcadia]

 

I found that to be a little out of the blue too. But a lot of fan fiction portrays Molly and Mary as close friends, and/or Mary always trying to be the matchmaker for Molly and Sherlock. Maybe Moftiss forgot that someone else writes all that stuff, and incorporated it into their plot?

 

Yeah, I can definitely see that -- Mary had only been Mary for five years, but she had "lots and lots of friends," so she knew how to make friends quickly.  She saw the connection between Sherlock and Molly, and decided to strengthen her own bond with Sherlock by becoming buddies with Molly.  (Not saying there was anything sneaky about it, just that's how Mary was.)  So that's how Molly gets invited to the wedding, and how she becomes co-godmother to Rosie.

 

And also maybe Molly's one of the few people who actually likes to hang around John & Co.? Sherlock's scared off everyone else .... :D