John Watson

[Inge l-w]

Maybe because in place of the sweet, artless governess the creators saw fit to place a lethal, gun-toting assassin for hire?

[Pseudonym]

Why I dislike Mary... oh where to start?

The whole assassin storyline was pointless, it didn't go anywhere and was completely redundant. I fail to see how we are supposed to like Mary and feel sympathy for her when she shot the main character. 

I could happily have done without any love/marriage storyline. Yes, we know John gets married at some point, don't really need to see it. 

She out-thought Sherlock and out-soldiered John. For someone who's role is essentially supposed to be a bit part having her outstrip the two heroes of the story seems incredibly poorly thought out. 

I just didn't find her likeable. Perhaps if she had been a normal person but not an OTT assassin/mercenary I'd actually give a cr*p when she died. 

The whole 'you won't love me when you know what I've done' and then as an example of her past we get her saving diplomats from an overrun embassy - not exactly the evil deed she made out all her jobs to be. Seems like they set her up to be a villain and then U-turned, made her good and created a female villain in Eurus instead. 

The DVDs. Sherlock Holmes should not need instructions of what to do to save John, he's Sherlock frickin' Holmes, he is supposed to be smart enough to actually figure things out himself. And that sickly DVD at the epilogue, her calling them 'her' boys and giving them her blessing, eurgh. 

The pregnancy and Rosie - again why? What was the point? Rosie was hardly in Season 4, so why bother creating her in the first place?

 

If they had to bring in Mary they should have gone out of their way to make her as likeable as possible, made her and John desperately in love (rather than barely liking each other the way they seem to at the end) and then killed her. It would have made John's rage at Sherlock more believable, and given her death a real emotional punch because we would have come to care about her as a character. 

 

Cut back on the over the top melodrama and overpowered characters. Sherlock is not supposed to be the family idiot. Enough of the ill thought out 'lets make a strong female character' storylines and lets back back to the detective, the doctor and the cases. 

[HerlockSholmes]

I think the Mary character was a simply a twist in the plot. The writers obviously enjoy subverting the original stories (and they do it brilliantly.) If I've read any criticisms of Sherlock the one that I've heard most is one of over-complication. When characters have 2 sides to their character, and if there are a few characters like this, then the available plot twists are almost endless which can possibly, only possibly, lead to over complication. On the whole though I think that Moftiss got it just right (and we can always re-watch an episode if we mis-understood a bit.)

I really liked Mary. She genuinely loved John but she had a serious and dangerous edge. I loved the bit where Sherlock was 'resurrected' and John punched him. She really threw John when, in the midst of his anger, she said 'I like him!.'

[Boton]

I didn't mind Mary as she was played, and I liked when she was on screen, but I didn't think she should be there, if that makes sense?

 

I think ACD Mary was in the background, and that's where our Mary should have been to keep the focus on the John-Sherlock relationship.  However, Mary was very well-written and well-acted, and I enjoyed watching her.  I just thought that her time would be better spent on John and Sherlock.

 

("I like him" is one of my favorite lines in the whole show. It's AA's delivery, I think.)

[HerlockSholmes]

By the way, talking of 'subverting the original stories' you can't get much different to the originals that Watsons reaction to Holmes 'reappearance.' In Sherlock its rage and trauma. In The Empty House its fainting and euphoria! You can't imagine any of the great 'traditional' Watsons like Hardwick, Burke or Morell reacting in that way.

 

Moving Holmes forward to the present day definately worked. What about a suggestion for Moftiss? The did 'The Abominable Bride,' set largely in Victorian times so what about a one-off Sherlock set in the future? Or even a one-off Steampunk version?

[HerlockSholmes]

I didn't mind Mary as she was played, and I liked when she was on screen, but I didn't think she should be there, if that makes sense?

 

I think ACD Mary was in the background, and that's where our Mary should have been to keep the focus on the John-Sherlock relationship. However, Mary was very well-written and well-acted, and I enjoyed watching her. I just thought that her time would be better spent on John and Sherlock.

 

("I like him" is one of my favorite lines in the whole show. It's AA's delivery, I think.)

AA's delivery has a lot to do with it I agree. It just threw John completely. Brilliant stuff.

 

In the originals, apart from in The Sign Of Four where she's the 'victim,' Mary is virtually non-existant except for when she gave us the 'James' mystery. I understand you having slightly mixed feelings about her role though. To paraphrase her: 'I liked her.'

[Boton]

Yeah, mixed feelings sums it up. 

 

I would have been happy with an ACD-style Mary.  As I've said elsewhere, maybe make her the focus of one case, then put her firmly in the background as part of John's life and the reason he's not living at 221B (which would be ACD-compliant for part of the stories) and don't focus on her.

 

But if Moftiss had introduced another female character and then summarily shoved her in the background, they would have gotten crucified from all angles.  People would have been angry that they didn't create a "strong female character;" others would have been upset that she was just a placeholder in John's life that kept him from "Johnlock as endgame." They would have been absolutely torn apart.

 

So they made her an Amazon.  A trained assassin with skills as good or better than Sherlock's.  And that was something we didn't need.  Just because this is a Sherlock Holmes story that tries to remain in some ways faithful to the original, John and Sherlock should always be the ones who can deduce the quickest, shoot the straightest, and solve the most intricate crimes.  Mycroft is the exception, and he takes himself out of the running by not liking legwork.  Mary is not supposed to be the one who can do everything with great ease, and making her be that way means that John really has no need for Sherlock.  That's my problem with Mary.

 

But, like someone (Arcadia, maybe?) said, I'd watch the heck out of a show called "The AGRA files" that just lets Mary run around being her own bada$$ self pre-John.  

[Pseudonym]

I just don't know why a strong Mary had to be so over the top. She could have been a normal person and still been strong. I quite like the fics where Mary is a normal person; they end Johnlock, just because that's what I usually read, but there is one where Mary is on an education board, and she's normal but still strong, independent and knows her mind. 

[Shadow Dweller]

I would love to see Irene Adler coming back instead of Mary Watson. Mary is unnecessary and all stories that involved her looks like a filler of sort. She had outlived her usefulness the moment Mofftiss introduced the pregnancy. Before that I keep hoping that Mycroft would use that particular asset for Queen and Country where the mission crossed the Bakerstreet boys' path and thus creating new adventure for all. But no, she ended up as 'love-interest' and a supposed reason for angsty moments. I say good-riddance that she's gone now and please Mofftiss, never put another female character in that particular roles again or you risk of destroying the series even further.

[Pseudonym]

I don't like Irene either. I wish there was a female character I liked more. I like Mrs H and Molly fine, but I'd like someone who has a bit more oomph. I'd still like to see a female Sherlock, but I think I'm quite particular in what I like in a character and there are too many ways it could go wrong. 

[Shadow Dweller]

Just change Sherlock's sex-chromosome to XX and you got it. I bet nothing significant would change since anyone from both sexes could have that particular combination of personality and temperament.

[Pseudonym]

That's the thing, if they did that it would be great. The problem is I bet they would change too much, make her either girly, or bitchy, or something that would ruin it. 

 

Female Sherlock and John would be interesting, but I'd quite like a female Sherlock with a male John too - especially if he treats her the way this version of John treats this version of Sherlock (sans punching), I mean in the way he looks out for him but doesn't coddle him.

[Shadow Dweller]

We already have an example of female John and her name is Joan Watson. John 'Three Continents' Watson is a traditionalist, if Sherlock is female then the series would be in real danger of turning into ordinary slice of life romcom or at least one side on John's part, which would immediately diminish a lot of potential audience's interest. The Sherlock Holmes name attracts people who likes certain sort of adventure, should there is an emphasize on more than platonic, oblivious relationship (on Sherlock's part) with 'her' flatmate then what's the difference with quite a number of series old and new out there born from that kind of template? It would not be 'Story about a detective' but it would become yet another generic action series focusing on the 'domestic affairs' while being thinly covered by sleuthing activities.

[Boton]

And I'm afraid that two women would turn into "Cagney and Lacey" or something.

 

I've said before that I wish this show had ended with an emphasis on Sherlock and John having "normal" (for them) lives and only occasionally fighting crime.  The crime fighting is the public perception, but not the bulk of their lives.  I think that could work very well with a both-female Sherlock and John (Shirley and Joan?).

[Pseudonym]

Sorry, cross post, was answering Shadow.

 

Oh God no, I mean keep everything the same. Just because John is male and Sherlock is female, keep everything completely platonic, make her being female and him male a non issue. I can't think of that many series where you have a male and female living together, working together, being best mates without there being any undertone of them wanting to jump each other - might be refreshing.

 

My issue with Joan Watson in Elementary (which I did enjoy the first couple of seasons of), is that they took the things that make John cool and removed them. Joan isn't an army doctor - why? A female army doctor would have been a cool character, she's scared to even be a practising doctor at all after a bad experience, she doesn't (to the best of my memory) write. She's essentially an original character and not a female John at all. That's what I would be scared would happen to Sherlock if he were made female. 

[Shadow Dweller]

Lol. Look at most of the women population and tell me that they would not most of the time act differently had each of them was born as male. Female who act more like the male-stereotype is the minorities and we face specific challenges that our 'womanly' sisters in sex-chromosome doesn't.

[Shadow Dweller]

And I'm afraid that two women would turn into "Cagney and Lacey" or something.

 

I've said before that I wish this show had ended with an emphasis on Sherlock and John having "normal" (for them) lives and only occasionally fighting crime.  The crime fighting is the public perception, but not the bulk of their lives.  I think that could work very well with a both-female Sherlock and John (Shirley and Joan?).

 

Sherlock probably would remains more or less like in the series but John, 'she' might experience some sort sense of rivalry towards SH like a lot of house-sharing females from certain age-groups.

[Pseudonym]

But they aren't real people and there are women in the army and female detectives. If it's set in the modern world keep as much of the character traits as possible. I'm not saying make them so masculine they might as well be men but don't change too many of their base traits. 

[Pseudonym]

Lady John could still be going on dates left right and centre, and since Sherlock is disinterested in dating that would take out a chunk of rivalry. 

[Boton]

Lady John could still be going on dates left right and centre, and since Sherlock is disinterested in dating that would take out a chunk of rivalry. 

 

I would love that. 

[Shadow Dweller]

But they aren't real people and there are women in the army and female detectives. If it's set in the modern world keep as much of the character traits as possible. I'm not saying make them so masculine they might as well be men but don't change too many of their base traits. 

 

Human beings becomes attached to those they could relate to, and cinematic production needs to take that to account if they want audience. For female detectives and soldiers, the pressure of behaving in professional setting would prevent the worst of the female rivalries but take that away then put them in the close vicinity almost every hour every day and the dynamics would change.

 

 

Lady John could still be going on dates left right and centre, and since Sherlock is disinterested in dating that would take out a chunk of rivalry. 

 

The sense of rivalry doesn't always based on whether both are interested on dating or not. It is a primal instinct that come into work by merely being in the vicinity of another female, with exception if the second party is much older or younger and therefore obviously not a competitor. A lot of women still cannot tame that instinct.

[Pseudonym]

So you think every time two women live together there would automatically be rivalry? I'm sure plenty of women live together without any issues at all. 

[Shadow Dweller]

So you think every time two women live together there would automatically be rivalry? I'm sure plenty of women live together without any issues at all. 

 

This is a text-book example of logical fallacy known as False Equivalence. Read again my previous reply, please. I like if people could dismantle my argument but the countering volley better be sound instead of having a gaping hole the size of 'the new window' made by Moriarty's grenade for the Bakerstreet flat.

[Pseudonym]

Er, I was asking for clarification actually since I don't agree it is a primal instinct. I'm frankly not interested in getting into arguments or volleys, I'm just checking if you're saying what I think you're saying. 

[Shadow Dweller]

 

The sense of rivalry doesn't always based on whether both are interested on dating or not. It is a primal instinct that come into work by merely being in the vicinity of another female, with exception if the second party is much older or younger and therefore obviously not a competitor. A lot of women still cannot tame that instinct.

 

 

There, four letters bolded and underlined. Is 'A lot' equals with , 'All'?