John Watson

[Carol the Dabbler]

No! I have a clear memory of watching that show with my Dad when we lived in North Carolina, and we left there in the late '70's! Aggghhh! I've been infected with false memories! Help!

 

Maybe you were watching old Rathbone movies on television?  Or your set could pick up programs that hadn't been broadcast yet?

 

He's probably done that or enrolled her in a creche if he has the money. Depends if Mary have life insurance or left him any of her ill gotten gains.

 

To me, a creche is a nativity scene, so I'm clearly not understanding this, other than it's neither daycare nor a nanny.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

No! I have a clear memory of watching that show with my Dad when we lived in North Carolina, and we left there in the late '70's! Aggghhh! I've been infected with false memories! Help!

Maybe you were watching old Rathbone movies on television? Or your set could pick up programs that hadn't been broadcast yet?

He's probably done that or enrolled her in a creche if he has the money. Depends if Mary have life insurance or left him any of her ill gotten gains.

To me, a creche is a nativity scene, so I'm clearly not understanding this, other than it's neither daycare nor a nanny.

Apparently, creche is British English for daycare. At least that's what a quick Google search brought up just now.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe he found a nice daycare for her? Or an au pair?

 

He's probably done that or enrolled her in a creche if he has the money.

 

To me, a creche is a nativity scene, so I'm clearly not understanding this, other than it's neither daycare nor a nanny.

Apparently, creche is British English for daycare. At least that's what a quick Google search brought up just now.

 

I would have thought that might be it, but Pseud seems to be making a distinction between daycare and a creche.  On the other hand, the Oxford Dictionary says (under British English) that creche means "A nursery where babies and young children are cared for during the working day."  Maybe daycare means something else in the UK?  OK, Oxford says "Daytime care for people who cannot be fully independent, such as children" -- so perhaps the distinction is that British daycare is for older children?  Whereas here, I believe it's usually for babies and toddlers who are too young for preschool.

[Pseudonym]

I'd use creche for babies and toddlers and daycare for slightly older children, but that's not set in stone it's pretty interchangeable. 

[Arcadia]

You've all just given me the mental image of Rathbone and Bruce looking after a baby! Can anyone picture Basil Rathbone doing all that 'Coochie-coo' stuff?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Your father had exquisite taste.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Thought about this while riding on the street (because what else should occupy our minds rite :p)

 

Something always bothers me about how John reacts to Sherlock's fake death.

 

But I'm not really talking about him being angry or beating up Sherlock or those.

For the record, I am fine with TEH, both Sherlock and John reactions, but to me, it is concluded in TSoT. Hugs, make up, and done. So I don't buy him being angry with Sherlock as excuse for every problem he has from then on.

 

Specifically talking between TRF and TEH.

I always wonder why John kept saying 'Please stop being dead'.

I can't really make sense of why someone would say that about a friend whose head exploded (kind of) in front of your eyes.

And what are the odds that someone who is dead, is not really dead?

 

And yes, it is very possible that John hoped, and had slight of doubt that maybe, there is a chance. Fair enough, but why, if he was so desperate for it, why didn't he try to really find out?

Go to Baker Street, find a clue, a sign, an answer, a hope, whatever.

Haunt Mycroft, stalk him, bribe cake, of course it would be a stretch to get anything valid from Mycroft. But it is possible to bait tiny bit, even a tiny bit sign. He is not a superman, and if there is anyone who could help Sherlock pull it off, it's him.

 

And Molly, try to extract something from Molly. John knows very well that Irene tried this before and it involves fake body as one of the props. And who is the one Sherlock would go to?

 

I know John is not Sherlock, but he is not too shabby in his own investigation. And if you keep asking your dead friend to stop being dead, do something to test out that hope, no?

 

There are five stages of grieve; denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I know it's not textbook, but John is hopping around those too much.

 

I think he should at least do something!

No wonder Mrs. Hudson slam those tea cups.

[Pseudonym]

I think in regards to Molly John assumed the same thing that Molly herself did - that Sherlock barely noticed her existence, and would never involve her in something over involving John. 

 

I wonder how long he was distraught for. 

[Arcadia]

My feeling is that John "knew" Sherlock had to be dead, based on what he witnessed. But he was still in the early stages of grief when we last saw him in TRF, so he was still in the denial/anger/bargaining phase. (And from what I understand, those phases aren't that clear cut for everyone; some people skip one, or linger in one phase longer than other people, or experience them out of order ... etc.) He didn't want Sherlock to be dead, so he begged for him to still be alive.
 
I've always imagined that John did spend some time looking for clues that Sherlock might somehow still be alive. But I also imagine that Mycroft would have done everything he could to make sure John didn't find any. And I think John would have quickly felt that hoping Sherlock had somehow survived was a sign that he himself was losing his grip on reality, and quickly forced himself to stop thinking about it and move on. Or maybe that's just how I think I would react, and am transferring that to John.

 

Besides, I remember John asking Sherlock to stop being dead only one time; at the end of TRF. What are all these other times that you refer to? I know he refers to it in TEH but I always thought that was a reference to the scene we saw at the end of TRF.

 

Re: John still being angry about it after TSo3; that makes complete sense to me. You can love someone, as John does Sherlock, and still be hurt and angry about the things they have done to you. So I think in TSo3 the hugs and declarations of friendship are absolutely heartfelt and genuine; but I also believe that down deep, John is still hurt that Sherlock didn't trust him enough to include him in the secret. I know I would be (so again, maybe I'm just projecting myself onto John.)

 

Add to that the fact that Sherlock took the side of the "lying wife" instead of John's side, then went and murdered a man for said lying wife, even though the last thing John would have wanted is for Sherlock to compromise himself for John's sake ... and yes, I think John has plenty to be angry about. But most of the time he's just happy to be with his best friend, who also happens to be the person who winds him up the most. I suspect because he's the one John loves the most; we tend to have higher standards for the people we love than for people we don't care about, don't we?

[Boton]

 

...

 

Specifically talking between TRF and TEH.

I always wonder why John kept saying 'Please stop being dead'.

I can't really make sense of why someone would say that about a friend whose head exploded (kind of) in front of your eyes.

And what are the odds that someone who is dead, is not really dead?

 

And yes, it is very possible that John hoped, and had slight of doubt that maybe, there is a chance. Fair enough, but why, if he was so desperate for it, why didn't he try to really find out?

 

...

 

There are five stages of grieve; denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I know it's not textbook, but John is hopping around those too much.

 

 

I always think the "please stop being dead" is mostly John saying "please release me from feeling this level of grief." He isn't really talking to Sherlock; more, he's talking to the universe. 

 

Although, you have a point that Sherlock has the ability to fake so many things, the automatic reaction to his death ought to be disbelief.   ;)

 

You are right about hopping around the Kubler-Ross stages of grief. Do you know, I read an article the other day that suggested that those stages are not universal, and expecting someone to go through them all in order is counterproductive? I'm sure Moftiss didn't really have this in mind; they just wanted John to react however they wanted him to react at whatever point in the story.

[Pseudonym]

I've always thought Sherlock's 'it's just a magic trick' could be taken two ways. When I first heard it I actually thought he was talking about the jump until I realised he was meant to be talking about his deductions. John might have wondered how it was meant, and hoped he meant the jump. Plus he knows that if anyone could fake a suicide like that it would be Sherlock. 

[J.P.]

IMO that's why John has to see Sherlock falling and lying dead on the pavement. I saw "stop being dead" as a sign of grief. If John had some hope he wouldn't react with that much of anger. He went through a hell of accepting Sherlock's death.

[T.o.b.y]

IMO that's why John has to see Sherlock falling and lying dead on the pavement. I saw "stop being dead" as a sign of grief. If John had some hope he wouldn't react with that much of anger. He went through a hell of accepting Sherlock's death.

I agree. But paradoxically, I also think John had a teeny grain of lingering doubt the whole time which he himself interpreted as irrational "hoping against hope". And that just made him even more angry when it turned out to be correct.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, it's not much fun to discover you've been duped. Again. By the same person. Who you thought you could trust. And who you thought trusted you. :(

 

Besides, the fake death was pretty convincing. I already knew there was going to be a season 3 when I saw TRF (plus I knew Holmes survived the Falls in canon); even so, the first time I saw Sherlock hit the pavement, it was pretty convincing to me! For a few minutes there I wondered if they'd killed him off after all. So imagine if we didn't see Sherlock at the end, and didn't know there was an S3 ... we might be just as convinced as John that it was all over. My sister thought so.

[Pseudonym]

Nah, I never thought he was really dead or they'd really kill him - it's not that kind of show. (Unlike something like Game of Thrones where no one is safe.)

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Besides, I remember John asking Sherlock to stop being dead only one time; at the end of TRF. What are all these other times that you refer to? I know he refers to it in TEH but I always thought that was a reference to the scene we saw at the end of TRF.

To be clear, I perfectly understand John's stop being dead at end of TRF as a very natural and fresh reaction, which I can relate very well.

 

But, as mentioned, the one that I questioned is MHR, between TRF and TEH, when he said it again while watching video of Sherlock. It is indicated that MHR is much closer to TEH than TRF, some time had passed by, John had settled in new place, Anderson had a lot of proves about Sherlock resurfacing, the game is on and so on. And that particular timing seems odd to me, especially with what I assume to be his lack of efforts.

The action of asking itself at that timing makes much more sense to me if he tries something, anything, to get some sign of Sherlock. But what I read from what Mrs.Hudson said and seemingly lack of connections with others, he was only passively waiting, and with that, it's odd thing to ask imho. Do you want to believe, or half believe, and make some effort to try and find out, but he didn't and probably hoped that it came to him in clear view, like two boats and helicopter reference (but then get mad at Sherlock's lack of effort?).

 

 

@One of Arcadia's post that mentioned it makes sense that this fake death stuff always comes up for John, even beyond TEH.

 

I agree that old wounds almost never heals, could resurface and as damaging as new wounds. In many relationships, the decision to end one mostly comes from tiny little things that builds up overtime that keeps repeating.

 

But I'd like to think the fakedeath is not that.

In ideal mind, John should be able to differentiate what Sherlock does for that and with other situations, because they are not the same. It's very specific situation.

 

To make it clear, I think the series sort of agree with me. That John doesn't hold grudge beyond S3. Sherlock reminding him in TAB is on Sherlock's own guilty account. That's how I see it. And whatever happens to TLD, I think the show focuses only on what happened to Mary (regardless how ridiculous but I don't want to start on that again).

That is to say I question that TLD is John's long frustation with Sherlock (I agree it's long frustation, but not the fakedeath). I like to believe John is bigger person than that.

 

(so again, maybe I'm just projecting myself onto John.)

Arcadia, do you have caterpillar moustache?

 

You are right about hopping around the Kubler-Ross stages of grief. Do you know, I read an article the other day that suggested that those stages are not universal, and expecting someone to go through them all in order is counterproductive?

Yup, there are not always in order, as I meant with 'textbook'. What I meant it seems excessive not because John is hopping around, but he doesn't seem to get out from the circle and it repeats in different order, again.

I think it's not a stretch during TRF-TEH, but beyond that, no.

 

I'm sure Moftiss didn't really have this in mind; they just wanted John to react however they wanted him to react at whatever point in the story.

You are right.

We overthink many things because, we have a lot of time. :p

Their fault.

Is it time we analyze John's jumpers yet? :p

 

 

.. And that just made him even more angry when it turned out to be correct.

Could he become more angry for not trying to find out?

Tiny bit?

Just like, not a good comparison though, when we try to solve a puzzle but give up at the last minute and when we see the answer, it's so close! If only I had thought of that.. sort of thing.

In my mind, during Sherlock's absence, John's grief was magnified by his 'failure' to save Sherlock. And when he was back, the energy was turned into let me murder you for real, you.. curly.. cheekbone, annoying d*ck..! That's why to me, both reactions are fair to me on TEH.

 

Besides, the fake death was pretty convincing. I already knew there was going to be a season 3 when I saw TRF (plus I knew Holmes survived the Falls in canon); even so, the first time I saw Sherlock hit the pavement, it was pretty convincing to me! For a few minutes there I wondered if they'd killed him off after all. So imagine if we didn't see Sherlock at the end, and didn't know there was an S3 ... we might be just as convinced as John that it was all over. My sister thought so.

Tell me about it. I didn't know the canon and got hit by HFTDS: Horrifying Fictional TV Death Syndrome and curled in my bed, rocking back and forth and that sent me here guys, being a lunatic, just like the rest of you.

[Boton]

I've always thought Sherlock's 'it's just a magic trick' could be taken two ways. When I first heard it I actually thought he was talking about the jump until I realised he was meant to be talking about his deductions. John might have wondered how it was meant, and hoped he meant the jump. Plus he knows that if anyone could fake a suicide like that it would be Sherlock.

For some reason, I always read that line as self doubt. He's wanted to impress John for so long, and it looks like he's not going to get to do Plan A, or probably B, C, or D. He's starting to feel a bit like an imposter, so even though it's a good show to make it sound like he's confessing to tricking John all along, he sort of feels that way too.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I knew Holmes survived the Falls in canon....

Tell me about it. I didn't know the canon and got hit by HFTDS: Horrifying Fictional TV Death Syndrome and curled in my bed, rocking back and forth and that sent me here guys, being a lunatic, just like the rest of you.

Well, that's the silver lining, then -- your (thankfully temporary) misery allowed us to meet you!    

 

In Conan Doyle's story "The Final Problem" (not to be confused with the Sherlock episode of the same name ), Holmes and Watson are on the run from Moriarty.  They check into a hotel near the Reichenbach Falls, and as they are on their way to see the falls, a messenger catches up with them, saying that there's an English woman at the hotel who is very ill, probably dying, and it would be a great comfort to her to be attended by an English doctor.  Watson turns back, and Holmes continues to the falls.  When Watson reaches the hotel, he finds that there is no dying English woman (sound familiar?), so he heads back to the falls, where he finds a note (as in "this is my note") from Holmes, saying that he had encountered Moriarty at the falls, and they were about to fight, but Moriarty had allowed Holmes time to write this note.  After reading the note, Watson goes looking for Holmes, but finds nothing except footprints going to the falls -- but not returning.  He concludes that Holmes and Moriarty must have had their battle overlooking the falls (as in TAB), and that they had both fallen into the violent waters, to their deaths.

 

In Conan Doyle's story "The Empty House," Watson encounters an elderly man who is selling books (with titles exactly the same as those offered by John's elderly patient in "The Empty Hearse," except that of course "British Birds" really is about birds, and so on).  Later the man shows up at Watson's office.  Watson looks away for a moment, and when he turns back, Holmes is standing there, having discarded his disguise.  Watson faints.  Holmes revives him, explains that only Moriarty actually fell into the falls, and they set off together to catch Moriarty's chief henchman, Sebastian Moran.

 

If I've missed or misremembered anything, I'm sure someone will supply the correct information.

[Pseudonym]

In canon what is Holmes doing in the time he is pretending to be dead?

[Arcadia]

 

Besides, I remember John asking Sherlock to stop being dead only one time; at the end of TRF. What are all these other times that you refer to? I know he refers to it in TEH but I always thought that was a reference to the scene we saw at the end of TRF.

To be clear, I perfectly understand John's stop being dead at end of TRF as a very natural and fresh reaction, which I can relate very well.

 

But, as mentioned, the one that I questioned is MHR,....

 

Ah, you're right. I always forget the mini episode.

 

I think John's just stuck on missing his friend. Heck, I miss friends from 20 years ago and they're not even dead yet. I agree that guilt is an element in John's grief, though. And then he finds out all his anguish was unwarranted. Yeah, I'd punch Sherlock too.

 

 

(so again, maybe I'm just projecting myself onto John.)

Arcadia, do you have caterpillar moustache?

 

No, silly, I am a caterpillar moustache. When I get sad I project myself via springboard onto John. It cheers me up.

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

 

... I knew Holmes survived the Falls in canon....

Tell me about it. I didn't know the canon and got hit by HFTDS: Horrifying Fictional TV Death Syndrome and curled in my bed, rocking back and forth and that sent me here guys, being a lunatic, just like the rest of you.

Well, that's the silver lining, then -- your (thankfully temporary) misery allowed us to meet you!  

 

In Conan Doyle's story "The Final Problem" .....

 

 

Man, you interpreted "tell me about it" in a far different way than I did, Carol! :d I thought VBS meant "I know what you mean". Don't you love the English language?

 

In canon what is Holmes doing in the time he is pretending to be dead?

 

Yeah, do tell! I mean, please tell us! ;)

[Pseudonym]

There needs to be a little symbol you can add after a phrase to indicate if it's meant literally or not. 

[Boton]

 

 

 Watson looks away for a moment, and when he turns back, Holmes is standing there, having discarded his disguise.  Watson faints.  Holmes revives him, explains that only Moriarty actually fell into the falls, and they set off together to catch Moriarty's chief henchman, Sebastian Moran.

 

 

 

And in the Brett series, this is literally the only moment in my entire Holmesian and Sherlockian fan-girling that I actually believed in Johnlock, as Watson falls all over himself saying Holmes needs a rest and that Holmes should take Watson's bed, at which point Holmes is all like, "no, really, I'll just have a little nap on your exam table; looks perfectly comfortable."   :D

[Van Buren Supernova]

I think John's just stuck on missing his friend. Heck, I miss friends from 20 years ago and they're not even dead yet. I agree that guilt is an element in John's grief, though. And then he finds out all his anguish was unwarranted. Yeah, I'd punch Sherlock too.

And I'd laugh at John's face to get us(me) out of awkward situation because he was about to cry.

 

Actually I imagine that if John didn't jump to Sherlock and just attempted to punch (and Sherlock didn't let him), Sherlock would be able to duck every single punches and in my evil mind, that would be...hilarious? Sorry. XD

 

Man, you interpreted "tell me about it" in a far different way than I did, Carol! :D I thought VBS meant "I know what you mean". Don't you love the English language?

 

Yes, that's what I meant, not literally. But I appreciate the explanations a lot. I know most of them from here and there while you guys were talking about them, but wasn't aware that John actually went to Reichenbach with Sherlock. I always thought Sherlock was wandering alone thinking it was the right place to bait Moriarty, I think I mixed it a bit with ACD that he got the idea while on holiday.

 

 

Speaking of classic John, I always wonder, but haven't had chance/remember to bring it up. Do you guys think John cured some case of hysteria? :P

 

For those who don't know, hysteria is syndrome known since probably 13th to early 20th century, mostly 19th, for women. It includes anxiety, difficulty sleeping, heaviness in lower abdomen, fantasizing and others that you could google yourself. The treatment for it is orgasm, yep, and there are some historians who suggested that this led to invention of vibrator because it must be tiring for the doctors?

 

There needs to be a little symbol you can add after a phrase to indicate if it's meant literally or not.

I vote that we say how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood after the phrase.

[Pseudonym]

*Slightly awkward snort laughing* Is that why nurse-Mary pursued John? Because she heard how good he was at treating hysteria?  :lol: