Sherlock (the BBC character)

[gerry]

If Sherlock heard what John said why wouldnn’t those apply? Just because John wasn’t looking into SHerlock’s eyes to say you’re my friend, doesn’t mean the effect isn’t the same.

[Arcadia]

I've often been struck by the use of the word "friend" on this show. They make a big point of it at the beginning, with Donovan's caustic "he doesn't have friends," and Mycroft's "You've met him, how many friends do you think he has?" "I'm the closest thing to a friend he has ... an enemy."

 

Yet later on, as Gerry cites above, they use the term rather casually. "I'm just your friend." But I never get the feeling that Sherlock recognizes the depth of John's feelings for him; and why would he, as snarky as John is towards him. :smile: Not until John out and out calls him "best" friend. Up until then, I feel like Sherlock thought of "friend" as meaning something more like "acquaintance". I do that myself, sometimes ... "my friends from work". They're not really friends, though, they're just people at work that I enjoy interacting with, but it goes no further than that. A true friend is something beyond that, and a "best" friend is further along still.

 

Then in S4, John and Sherlock essentially go from being "best friends" to being brothers; "that's why he stays." If people want to see a romantic arc in this show, I think that's it right there ... two men going from acquaintances to brothers. I like it; it's interesting, and a bit sweet (especially between two such emotionally repressed people :smile:), and highly relatable even if you don't have an "adopted sibling" yourself.

 

Imo, of course. ;)

 

[Pseudonym]

I wonder if Sherlock takes the correction from friend to colleague in TBB to heart. I'd think 'oh, he doesn't think of me as a friend, maybe referring to him as a friend was too presumptuous.' I don't think I'm quite as socially inept as Sherlock, but I'd take it as a bit of a slap down. I'd try to think of that person as a colleague (albeit a close one in John's case) from that point on, and be overly neurotic about ensuring I never crossed the line and sounded too familiar again. 

How is Sherlock supposed to know at what point it's okay to call John his friend having already been corrected once?

[Artemis]

If Sherlock heard what John said why wouldnn’t those apply? Just because John wasn’t looking into SHerlock’s eyes to say you’re my friend, doesn’t mean the effect isn’t the same.

 

Because some of your examples came from Sherlock, not John (and one of those came after TSo3 rather than prior to).

 

- Just because someone doesn't argue with you when you call them your friend doesn't mean they feel the same.

- Sherlock may not have heard John saying "He's my friend" in all the commotion of the fall.

- If he did, friend is a word many people use loosely.  Sherlock might be less likely to because it would mean more to him, but John might, or Sherlock might think John might.

- I don't think John called Sherlock his friend at the gravesite.  He did talk about how much Sherlock changed his life, but that's not exactly the same.  You could extrapolate someone's feelings about you based on that, but I'm not sure that's something Sherlock is terribly good at.

- He seemed to think John was his friend in TBB when he introduced him to Seb, but when John corrected him to say "colleague", he might have felt he assumed too much and was careful not to make that mistake again.

- Being called someone's friend is different than being called someone's best friend.

 

That's all pure speculation and opinion of course.

 

 

[Artemis]

^ Also, what the people above me said, lol.  They were faster than I.

 

 

[J.P.]

 

JOHN: And why would you listen to me? I’m just your friend.

SHERLOCK (savagely): I don’t have friends.

 

This doesn't sound like a avowal of friendship, does it? :D

[Hikari]

 

 

JOHN: And why would you listen to me? I’m just your friend.

SHERLOCK (savagely): I don’t have friends.

 

This doesn't sound like a avowal of friendship, does it? :D

 

 

In Sherlock's defense, he was under the influence of a psychedelic during that exchange.  He lashed out at Watson because he was so rattled at seeing a Gigantic Hound.

 

The 'Make-Up' scene the next morning in the churchyard is one of the series' best bromance moments, bar none.  Most counter to form, Sherlock Holmes offers his friend an apology.  True to his form, Watson immediately accepts and puts his hurt of the previous night aside.  I love this little dialogue:

 

 

SH: Listen, what I said before, John--I meant what I said. I don't have friends. I've only got one. (Note that the phrase "I'm sorry for hurting your feelings, John" does not actually appear--but the sentiment is there.  I think.)

 

JW (pause): Right. (turns about face and marches away double-quick time in patented military Hobbit fashion.  In JW's mind, he has drawn a line under the hurtful comment and is Done with It.)

 

SH: (has obviously interpreted this rather brusque reception as "I Said I Was Sorry--isn't that what You're Supposed to Do?!  Benedict's eyeballs skitter around in his head like a couple of azure pinballs--Sherlock Holmes is feeling an uncustomary emotion:  Panic.  "My best and only friend is walking away from me!  Don't leave me, Jawn, don't leave!)  John . . .?  JOHN!  (goes bounding after Watson a bit like a Labrador puppy not wanting to be left behind by his person.)--Quick, think of Something!

 

You are amazing!  You are fantastic!!  (These happen to be compliments which SH has received verbatim from Watson.  Sherlock Holmes is unaccustomed to giving compliments and is unfamiliar with the vocabulary.  So he pulls out two of Jawn's most treasured compliments to himself out of storage on his hard drive, all the while cavorting around Watson.)

 

JW:  Yes, all right.  No need to overdo it.

 

SH: You've never been the most luminous of people, but as a conductor of light, you're unbeatable! (a paraphrase of an actual compliment from SH in the novel.)

 

JW:  Cheers. . . .What?

 

SH: Some people who aren't geniuses have an amazing ability to stimulate it in other people.

 

JW:  Hold on, you were saying sorry a minute ago.  Don't spoil it. Go on--what have I done that's so bloody stimulating?  (Oh, Dr. Watson, the Sherlock fandom has so many ideas as to that--most of them filthy.)

[gerry]

 

 

If Sherlock heard what John said why wouldnn’t those apply? Just because John wasn’t looking into SHerlock’s eyes to say you’re my friend, doesn’t mean the effect isn’t the same.

Because some of your examples came from Sherlock, not John (and one of those came after TSo3 rather than prior to).

 

- Just because someone doesn't argue with you when you call them your friend doesn't mean they feel the same.

- Sherlock may not have heard John saying "He's my friend" in all the commotion of the fall.

- If he did, friend is a word many people use loosely. Sherlock might be less likely to because it would mean more to him, but John might, or he might think John might.

- I don't think John called Sherlock his friend at the gravesite. He did talk about how much Sherlock changed his life, but that's not exactly the same. You could extrapolate someone's feelings about you based on that, but I'm not sure that's something Sherlock is terribly good at.

- He seemed to think John was his friend in TBB when he introduced him to Seb, but when John corrected him to say "colleague", he might have felt he assumed too much and was careful not to make that mistake again.

- Being called someone's friend is different than being called someone's best friend.

 

That's all pure speculation and opinion of course.

Can’t say I agree with the general concept that the only way that it can be proven that Sherlock considers himself lovable is if he knows with absolute certainty that John’s been his best friend since day one. He has clearly known ever since HoB they are friends not to mention the events of TRF including the gravesite scene don’t scream unloved, but in fact the opposite.

[Artemis]

Can’t say I agree with the general concept that the only way that it can be proven that Sherlock considers himself lovable is if he knows with absolute certainty that John’s been his best friend since day one. He has clearly known ever since HoB they are friends not to mention the events of TRF including the gravesite scene don’t scream unloved, but in fact the opposite.

 

That's understandable, and I wasn't arguing that particular concept.  :D  I was only curious to know if John had declared Sherlock his friend in an obvious and direct way before TSo3.  I was trying to rationalize to myself why Sherlock may have reacted with such astonishment in the best friend/best man scene.  I think it could be explainable.  It could also be poor writing.  Either way, I like the scene, mostly because it strikes a chord with me in a relatable way.

 

 

[Arcadia]

Yeah, irregardless of what was said to whom in the first two seasons, Sherlock was obviously astonished to discover he was John's best friend in S3. I think that's the point I depart from. It's also one of my favorite scenes.

[Hikari]

Yeah, irregardless of what was said to whom in the first two seasons, Sherlock was obviously astonished to discover he was John's best friend in S3. I think that's the point I depart from. It's also one of my favorite scenes.

 

Taking this thread out of the mothballs.  Rather astonished that Sherlock, the Star-Diva of our little show has not had any activity on his page for a month.

 

The scene in Sign of 3 is cutely played by both of our leads . . but its placement in the middle of the third season does feel pretty tardy.  By the middle of the second season, in the Hounds of Baskerville scene which I wrote out above, I thought it was pretty firmly sorted in everyone's mind that Sherlock and Jawn were Best Friends.  That was the moment, in the graveyard in Devonshire, when Sherl admitted as much.  One's only friend is one's best friend by default, no?

 

Of course, Jawn Watson is a much more popular guy than is Sherl; Jawn has a number of friends.  Still, it seems highly out of character for Sherlock Holmes to believe that he has somehow become lost among the pile of Jawn's friends as "A friend, kind of, but not Jawn's BESTest friend."  After all, Sherl has come back from the dead, and Jawn forgave him for that.  But there was an absence of 2 years.  Does Sherl think that J. became so close to 'Gavin' in the interim that he's been displaced?

 

Even supposing that Sherl is *not* keen to have anything to do with this wedding and all the People that will be present, he seems particularly obtuse in that moment.  What might have happened if Jawn had gotten disgusted and said, "If you still haven't been able to deduce after all this time that you're my best friend . . forget it!  I'm asking Greg!  You can . . .take people's coats, so there!"

[Arcadia]

Well, considering John's reaction when Sherlock returned, and considering that he'd found himself a different roommate during Sherlock's absence, I think it's understandable that Sherlock might not have realized he was John's best friend, even if he thought they were friends before "The Fall."
 
Now that I think on it, I think I would be astonished if any of my current friends called me their "best" friend. Certainly they don't go out of their way to make me feel I hold a special place! :D I mean, they don't go around punching me in the face, so I know we're friends, but they don't exactly tell me how close they feel to me either. That, I am left to guess at. (Thank goodness; I'd be horribly embarrassed if one of them confessed I was their "bestest.") It was important when I was much, much younger, but it doesn't seem so now.

[Hikari]

Well, considering John's reaction when Sherlock returned, and considering that he'd found himself a different roommate during Sherlock's absence, I think it's understandable that Sherlock might not have realized he was John's best friend, even if he thought they were friends before "The Fall."

 

Now that I think on it, I think I would be astonished if any of my current friends called me their "best" friend. Certainly they don't go out of their way to make me feel I hold a special place! :D I mean, they don't go around punching me in the face, so I know we're friends, but they don't exactly tell me how close they feel to me either. That, I am left to guess at. (Thank goodness; I'd be horribly embarrassed if one of them confessed I was their "bestest.") It was important when I was much, much younger, but it doesn't seem so now.

 

Well, yeah . . most of us don't retain 'besties' in adult life, sadly, unless we are one of the lucky few that hold onto our grade school/high school/college besties for life.  That said, and even with Jawn's 'new roommate' and the understandable (if temporary) anger and sense of betrayal over Sherlock's little Not Dead stunt . . there was the several years they lived together, in each others' pockets (quite literally) and all the intense bonding experiences nearly getting killed together always brings.  Jawn may have found a new friend(s) in Sherl's absence but Sherlock still retains #1 spot, even when Jawn is mad at  him.  Kinda like . . .family.  By S4 SH has made the leap from Best Friend?? Me?? to "Jawn is family; he stays."

 

I don't really have a best friend either, any more, if best friendship is measured by how much/often IRL contact I have with a person.  Some of my 'best friends' these days are cyber friends I've never met.  Choosing not to dwell on that sad state of affairs.  I make 'real friends'--they keep leaving me.  Moving away . . leaving our mutual workplace . .getting married.  The only one that stays put without changing is me.  Sad again!  I'd love to be called a 'bestest' but it's been years since I was confident that I had one of those.

 

John may have forgiven Sherlock his Hiatus but he will never forget.

 

SH:  When have I ever been a malingerer?!

JW:  You pretended to be dead for two years!!

SH (pause . . .) . . .Apart from that!

 

The friendship is battered, strained almost to the breaking point with the death of Mary but it does not, after all, snap in two.  These two are for until death do us part.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Of all above, it's fascinating how John was kind of reluctant to be Sherlock's friend in the beginning of TBB, I suppose he is just like almost everyone of us too, weary to get too close. Gasp, did he exercise Mycroft's Caring is not advantage? Don't get involved? before he gave in to be Sherlock's friend?

 

And BAM, the very next episode he had semtex vest strapped on him. XD

Oh wait, on that same episode he was tied to chair with Chinese ancient contraption pointed at him.

Ah well,.how is that working out for ya John?

 

 

P.S. I hope he is looking at the bright side, we are talking about him in Sherlock's thread for a change.

[Carol the Dabbler]

My interpretation of the friend / colleague scene is *not* that John is denying being Sherlock's friend.

 

When Sherlock introduces John as his friend, Sebastian gets a mocking grin on his face, which I interpret (and John may too) as something like "friend, huh? you never had any friends -- what did you do, hire one to impress me?"  Added: Either that, or Seb thinks John is Sherlock's boyfriend.  In either case, John's intention is to stop Sebastian from making fun of them by making it clear that both of them are there on business.

 

[Pseudonym]

I interpret Sebastian's part the same way, maybe even John's, but I think what I see differently is from Sherlock's POV John saying he's a colleague is like he's saying to Sebastian 'yea, you're right, I'm not his friend.' I don't think it's meant that way, but if I was Sherlock that's how I'd take it. 

[Hikari]

My interpretation of the friend / colleague scene is *not* that John is denying being Sherlock's friend.

 

When Sherlock introduces John as his friend, Sebastian gets a mocking grin on his face, which I interpret (and John may too) as something like "friend, huh? you never had any friends -- what did you do, hire one to impress me?"  So John's intention is to clarify the situation so Sebastian will stop making fun of them.  He makes it clear that both of them are there on business.

 

Yeah, one wants to punch Seb in that smirking gob to wipe the smirk off.

 

I'd take Seb's reaction one further and speculate that Seb was intimating . ."Friend  . .yeah, right .. more like boyfriend . ."  John has already been mistaken for Sherlock's boyfriend by at least two people, Mrs. Hudson & Angelo, in the previous episode.  His assertion that he's Sherlock's "colleague, thank you very much", shows that he's fed up with this misapprehension dogging him everywhere (best get used to it, Jawn) and he's trying to make the point that he's got a legitimate right to be there as a co-investigator, not that Sherlock has dragged his boyfriend along to a job.  John is already feeling touchy about his place in the partnership seeing as he's unemployed, skint and just had to borrow money from Sherl in the scene prior.  Being taken for Sherlock's kept boy toy by a posh knobhead he's just been introduced to is Too Much.

 

Interesting, though, isn't it that Sherlock insists that John accompany him to Seb's bank.  He'd apparently dispatched a ninja assassin alone in the flat while John was out having an argument with a  chip and PIN machine, and yet he brings his roommate along on the relatively routine errand of visiting a client at his office.  SH wants to show off his new friend to Seb, to make the point that he has a friend . . Unfortunately it was the wrong setting to demonstrate such familiarity because Watson wants to be perceived as a colleague rather than a pal (or Something More) in this particular situation.  It's still early days in their relationship, and JW, always finely attuned to what Other People are Thinking or Saying, doesn't want a wrong impression to be given.  To no avail, but he tries.

[Hikari]

And now, one of  my favorite Sherlock fandom videos from Season One

 

(Heavily featuring 'the Blind Banker')

 

Sherlock:  The Creepy Guy at Work

(featuring our BBC cast & Dane Cook)

---------------------------------------------------

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1TQ2VwI27c

Edited February 7, 2018 by Arcadia
fixed link

[Arcadia]

Hey, Hikari, hope I linked to the right video. Your link had some extra code around it for some reason. Do you just cut and paste? That's all it takes on my end, but I remember you mentioned an older browser ... not sure if that's a factor or not. At any rate, enjoy!

[Hikari]

Hey, Hikari, hope I linked to the right video. Your link had some extra code around it for some reason. Do you just cut and paste? That's all it takes on my end, but I remember you mentioned an older browser ... not sure if that's a factor or not. At any rate, enjoy!

 

Thanks, Arcadia,

 

I have enjoyed it . .many, many times.  I contribute this for the benefit of the fandom who may not have seen it.

The soundtrack is from a live stand-up comedy act by Dane Cook, who normally I can't really stand much, but the clever vlogger here has perfectly matched Dane's patter to images from S1 of our show, before much of Watson's humanizing influence had rubbed off a bit.

 

Sherlock definitely comes across as the Creepy Guy at Work if you just watched his antics from a dispassionate distance.  It's particularly scary when he is given access to a handgun . . . Anyway this was a really clever mash-up, I thought.  Though this face of Sherlock at the woman's door is less 'Creepy Guy' than 'Eager Rodent'.  He gets creepy enough very soon though.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Whoever made that video did an especially fine job of making Moriarty lip-sync the dialog.