Sherlock (the BBC character)

[Boton]

The thing is he would look ridiculous twirling about a stick whilst his opponent has a gun. It's the whole bringing a knife to a gunfight thing. I don't think I could take it seriously if he attacked Moriarty at the pool with a stick, even if you take the snipers out of the equation. 

I don't think he's turning into James Bond just because he's comfortable handling a gun (a bit too comfortable the way he flips them about and uses them to scratch his head).

 

I agree, Pseud.  I respect Arcadia's point about liking heroes that eschew gun violence, but the CAM confrontation was not going to end with Sherlock single-sticking him into submission. He wasn't going to go to Serbia and get away with dismantling Moriarty's network one deduction at a time. (Although I hope he did quite a lot of that.)

 

I think there's a lot of difference between James Bond and Sherlock Holmes, and we aren't in any danger of conflating the two because Sherlock picks up a gun. In fact, I find it rather important that, mistakes along the way or not, Sherlock was willing to kill to protect John and Mary. Someone who started S1 as arguably one of the more selfish protagonists around turned into someone who would kill for and die for his friends.  That's far more interesting to me than whether or not he could manage to get out of the experience without firing a shot.

 

(Sorry, JP and Arcadia; I do see where you're coming from.)

[Arcadia]

Ooops, had to edit because I cross-posted with Boton.

 

The thing is he would look ridiculous twirling about a stick whilst his opponent has a gun. It's the whole bringing a knife to a gunfight thing. I don't think I could take it seriously if he attacked Moriarty at the pool with a stick, even if you take the snipers out of the equation.

I don't think he's turning into James Bond just because he's comfortable handling a gun (a bit too comfortable the way he flips them about and uses them to scratch his head).

It's not the handling of the gun I object to (in fact, I rather love the bit in ASiB when he twirls the gun.) It's the idea that deadly force is "needed." This is one reason there's such an outcry against police in our country right now; there is a perception, right or wrong, that they are using more force than necessary to subdue the people they arrest. The good guys are supposed to know where to draw the line between pointing a gun at someone and shooting them dead in their tracks.

 

And I lovvvvvvve it when someone outsmarts a thug with a gun, that's one of my favorite things!!! My most favorite of all sequences in ASiB, possibly in the entire series, is when Sherlock rescues Mrs. Hudson with nothing but his ingenuity, bad-ass attitude and an aerosol can. Brilliant!!! So yes, by all means, let's see Sherlock go up against snipers with a stick, and win. I'd buy it in a heartbeat, because he's Sherlock-effin'-Holmes!

[Arcadia]

I agree, Pseud.  I respect Arcadia's point about liking heroes that eschew gun violence, but the CAM confrontation was not going to end with Sherlock single-sticking him into submission. He wasn't going to go to Serbia and get away with dismantling Moriarty's network one deduction at a time. (Although I hope he did quite a lot of that.)

 

I think there's a lot of difference between James Bond and Sherlock Holmes, and we aren't in any danger of conflating the two because Sherlock picks up a gun. In fact, I find it rather important that, mistakes along the way or not, Sherlock was willing to kill to protect John and Mary. Someone who started S1 as arguably one of the more selfish protagonists around turned into someone who would kill for and die for his friends.  That's far more interesting to me than whether or not he could manage to get out of the experience without firing a shot.

 

(Sorry, JP and Arcadia; I do see where you're coming from.)

No need to apologize, as you may have noticed by now, I don't ever seem to get enough of arguing this point. :p

 

At any rate, I had rather drifted from the subject of Magnussen in my last couple posts and was musing on "deadly force" in general, and I still think there's a taste out there in the modern audience for brains over brawn. I don't know if any of them have been successful or not, but there's been several Sherlock clones on TV in the past couple of years; heck, in the history of television ... that is, characters who are smarter than the bad guys, not simply deadlier. Although I'm sure the reverse has been true as well. But it's why I like Iron Man more than, oh, Superman, for example; he's strong, yes, but it's how he uses his brains that make him a hero, imo, not his brawn. (Yes, I was all on Stark's side during "Civil War." )

 

But back to the point of CAM; I like Pseud's idea that there is an upcoming plot point that hinges on Sherlock's decision to become a killer. I like that idea better than the one I mostly entertain, which is; "deadly Sherlock" was introduced because Mr. Moffatt thought it made Sherlock seem more "dangerous" and therefore "cooler." Because his statements about it certainly seem to support that.

 

Whether it has future implications or not, I agree that the story was written so that it seemed plausible that shooting CAM was Sherlock's "only" way out. Where I don't agree is in the idea that it was genuinely the only possible solution. I would have been satisfied to see our heroes turn the tables on CAM's slimy behind. Heck, I would have been satisfied to see Sherlock lose in every way possible; out-smarted, arrested, CAM still at large, Mary in danger. That could be a fascinating path to take for a show about a would-be superhero. How does he handle defeat of the worst kind? But hey, I don't write the show.

 

I do like the idea that Sherlock was willing to sacrifice himself for his friends. But it only works as a sacrifice for me if he suffers some personal cost. So far all we know is that he's not going into exile, he's not going to prison, and according to Moffat, he's not haunted by his action. He was punished, yes; he suffered a week in solitary with the thought that he only had six months to live. But since he's been reprieved, I feel he'll shake that off pretty quickly. So where's the sacrifice? (And that's why the thought of S4 is so scary .... maybe we're about to find out .... )

 

[Inge l-w]

Right there with you, Arcadia and Boton! It's flipping Sherlock Holmes, not a Bond clone, yet! Mind you, the explosion of the limousine made me fear for Mycroft's continued existence, guns or no guns around!

By the way, what are the members' views on the Titan Comics Study in Pink? Money-making stunt or a worthwhile purchase? Sherlock looks a bit like he would in TJLC.

[J.P.]

Arcadia - as Sherlock decided to shoot CAM he couldn't know that he would get away with it. He took the risk of being shot immediately by Mycroft's men or being prosecuted for a murder.

He might have hoped for Mycroft to help him, but I suppose his cold mind didn't rely on that.

So IMO he was willing to sacrifice a lot. How things turned out doesn't diminish it.

 

Plus, we don't really know how things turn out... yet.

[Boton]

By the way, what are the members' views on the Titan Comics Study in Pink? Money-making stunt or a worthwhile purchase? Sherlock looks a bit like he would in TJLC.

 

Well, money-making stunt given that they are $3.99 USD for each of 6 parts of SiB for your Kindle or iPad, then you get to order the whole thing all over again if you want hard copy next year.

 

But, for me, this is not a TJLC Sherlock. I almost took a screen cap of the look of horror in John's eyes when he realized that he fumbled into propositioning his flat mate at Angelo's; that was worth the purchase price of that installment alone.  I think the characters are just drawn a little more to the thin, pretty types of males more typical of manga.

 

***

 

Back to topic, sort of, in the discussion of whether Sherlock was outsmarted into a corner with CAM.  One thing that we haven't said (that I know of), is that CAM, himself, is a bit of an idiot.  If I owned several newspapers and television stations/programs, and if I had the dirt on a number of people tucked away in my head, I would spend the last hour of every work day compiling a flash drive of news stories and information-based actions that were to be immediately taken or released in the event of my death by suspicious means. I'd have something like three different staff members who would be given these drives and told that if I died suddenly or disappeared, they were to wait 12 hours and then run this news in the next cycle and execute the instructions on other information contained in the drive.

 

The man knew he was meeting with Sherlock, and he knew Sherlock's pressure points were John and Mary.  I would have had information on that drive about the people Mary had hurt.  Then, about the time CAM was bragging about his vaults being his mind palace, he could have said, "and don't think about trying to take me out, because if you do, in 12 hours there will be a number of phone calls made to the families of the people Mary hurt, and your efforts will be for nothing."

 

Now *that* would have put Sherlock in a situation he had to solve with his mind.

[J.P.]

Having a plan in case of death... what if he'd got a heart attack? ;)

 

And I think he didn't have any plans, there is no ideology behind his deeds, he's not on a mission of any kind. He just enjoys the power and playing people like chess figures as long as he's alive, but I see no reason why he'd leave any kind of legacy behind him.

[Boton]

Having a plan in case of death... what if he'd got a heart attack? ;)

 

 

 

That's the reason for the 12 hours; time for the designated people to verify a natural death versus a suspicious one.  

 

Anyway, that's what *I'd* do, but I'm not CAM.  As far as you guys know.  

[Arcadia]

Arcadia - as Sherlock decided to shoot CAM he couldn't know that he would get away with it. He took the risk of being shot immediately by Mycroft's men or being prosecuted for a murder.

He might have hoped for Mycroft to help him, but I suppose his cold mind didn't rely on that.

So IMO he was willing to sacrifice a lot. How things turned out doesn't diminish it.

Well, I did say that I liked the idea that he was willing to sacrifice himself! I like that very much; it sets his action above pure vigilantism and into a more altruistic realm. Which is a strange thing to say about murdering someone, but there you go. But still, he hasn't really paid for his deed. Yet. And I don't mean paying a debt to society or something like that; I mean we haven't seen him use this moment to grow as a person. And if he doesn't do that ... well, you know how the TJLC'ers say they've been promised The Kiss? Well, I think I've been promised Sherlock will someday become what Lestrade would describe as a good man. That's my ship, apparently. (?) And killing even a slime mold like CAM without experiencing some kind of spiritual or psychological distress doesn't fit my idea of a good man. YMMV, of course.

 

Plus, we don't really know how things turn out... yet.

I know....

 

 

 

By the way, what are the members' views on the Titan Comics Study in Pink? Money-making stunt or a worthwhile purchase? Sherlock looks a bit like he would in TJLC.

Well, money-making stunt given that they are $3.99 USD for each of 6 parts of SiB for your Kindle or iPad, then you get to order the whole thing all over again if you want hard copy next year.

 

But, for me, this is not a TJLC Sherlock. I almost took a screen cap of the look of horror in John's eyes when he realized that he fumbled into propositioning his flat mate at Angelo's; that was worth the purchase price of that installment alone. I think the characters are just drawn a little more to the thin, pretty types of males more typical of manga.

 

Without having seen the inside of them I think you probably need to like manga from the start to really get something out of the comics. I would never buy a DC version, for example, because I don't like the DC style. I happen to like manga art, although I grew tired of the shojo style. They all looked the same after awhile. At any rate, I surprisingly have no desire to see these; for some reason I feel like it would water down what I love about the TV version. That doesn't really make sense, does it? But it's how I feel.

 

Back to topic, sort of, in the discussion of whether Sherlock was outsmarted into a corner with CAM. One thing that we haven't said (that I know of), is that CAM, himself, is a bit of an idiot. If I owned several newspapers and television stations/programs, and if I had the dirt on a number of people tucked away in my head, I would spend the last hour of every work day compiling a flash drive of news stories and information-based actions that were to be immediately taken or released in the event of my death by suspicious means. I'd have something like three different staff members who would be given these drives and told that if I died suddenly or disappeared, they were to wait 12 hours and then run this news in the next cycle and execute the instructions on other information contained in the drive.

 

The man knew he was meeting with Sherlock, and he knew Sherlock's pressure points were John and Mary. I would have had information on that drive about the people Mary had hurt. Then, about the time CAM was bragging about his vaults being his mind palace, he could have said, "and don't think about trying to take me out, because if you do, in 12 hours there will be a number of phone calls made to the families of the people Mary hurt, and your efforts will be for nothing."

 

Now *that* would have put Sherlock in a situation he had to solve with his mind.

Ooooh, did anyone ever tell you that you can be quite devious? :P (And how do we know CAM didn't do exactly that, but just forgot to mention it?)

 

You know, I just realized that I never thought CAM was smarter than Sherlock, in spite of Mycroft's "you'd be going up against me" crack. I've always looked at it as Sherlock being off his game, for whatever reason; drugs, emotions, physical injuries, what have you. In other words, I've never thought of CAM as winning (and he did end up dead, after all ) ... I've always thought in terms of Sherlock losing. Hmmm. I wonder what that means.

 

Anyhow, in the writer's defense, I would suggest that CAM wasn't an idiot, he was just so arrogant that he couldn't imagine anyone offing him. Which is kind of an idiotic thing to believe, now that I think about it. Okay, never mind. He was an idiot! :d

[Pseudonym]

He didn't have any plans, but it would have been brilliant if he had. If he died under suspicious circumstances (which means poisoning etc wouldn't be a way out) then his solicitor could have been instructed to open an envelope containing the flash drive. I can't see he would have had many loyal employees since he was such an a*sehole, but money would talk with an equally slimy solicitor. Since he had so many people with vendettas against him it's a bit strange he didn't take some sort of precaution like that, especially since he was aware one of those people was a trained assassin. 

 

I agree with the earlier points about violence, the reason Sherlock is such a loved character is because of his intelligence, not his capacity for violence. It's surprising really there are so many guns in the show since guns aren't really a common thing in the UK, even in the police force. My sister is in the police and whilst she has a taser she's never had a gun, it's just not something that's a thing here. Sure, there are dodgy areas where people may have guns, and there are some armed police but it's certainly not the norm. The only time I've ever seen guns in real life are on European and American police, and frankly they terrify me. 

 

My hope for there being a point to the murder is due to Moffat saying that he will definitely be consequences for his actions - I think it was in that comic con interview?

 

I also agree about CAM being a bit of an iffy villain, I hated him because he was repulsive, the licking of Lady Smallwood, and that cut scene of him caressing Sherlock's hand really made my skin crawl, but whilst he was grotesque he wasn't that scary. He was dangerous because of the information he had, but there was never the imminent risk of physical harm or death like with Moriarty. I don't really get the whole thing of him putting John in the bonfire, it seems out of character for a man who seems to enjoy destroying people intellectually rather than physically. He knew John mattered to Sherlock, he didn't really learn anything he wouldn't have already known, unless I'm missing something?

 

Argh, as I'm writing this new replies keep coming in, I can't keep up! :P

[Pseudonym]

 

 In other words, I've never thought of CAM as winning (and he did end up dead, after all   ) ... I've always thought in terms of Sherlock losing. Hmmm. I wonder what that means.

 

Is it that Sherlock lost because he went against his own ideals of his intellect being paramount? He lost to his own standards rather then he lost to CAM.

[Arcadia]

I know what you mean, I keep cross posting!

 

Somehow, I had managed to forget that "consequences" remark, and that's a good point. Of course, we don't actually know what they are the consequence of, or to whom, do we? Argggh, will this hiatus never end???

 

I thought the "John in the bonfire" stuff was because CAM wasn't sure how the two of them stood, and this was his way of finding out. (Although it seems to me Sherlock would have tried to rescue anyone in that situation, not just John.) Although another thought I've had was that his intention was to put pressure on Mary, not realizing she would go to Sherlock, and Sherlock was just a bonus delivered into his lap. In which case ... thanks a heap, Mary!!

[Pseudonym]

Ah yes, he might have been testing Mary to see if she really felt anything for John or was just faking. I'm surprised she didn't just try to save him herself actually, she wasted time going to get Sherlock.

And yup, I don't think Sherlock would let anyone burn to death, I think he would even have saved Anderson if it came down to it. 

[Arcadia]

See? Another cross post.

 

 

 In other words, I've never thought of CAM as winning (and he did end up dead, after all   ) ... I've always thought in terms of Sherlock losing. Hmmm. I wonder what that means.

 

Is it that Sherlock lost because he went against his own ideals of his intellect being paramount? He lost to his own standards rather then he lost to CAM.

 

 

Ummmm .... that's part of it. But also I think I've just always felt that he was too reckless in this episode, too cocky. He was so proud of himself for fooling Janine, for example, until she made him realize how cruel it was. And I've often wondered if we weren't supposed to think the drugs were affecting him when he was considering how to tackle CAM. That whole scene between him and Magnussen in the "canteen" was just plain weird, like Sherlock was only half there.

 

I guess what I really think is that he lost by descending to the level of "ordinary" people. He let love and rage take over and drive his actions. So in that sense, yeah, he betrayed his own intellect.

 

The funny thing is, both of those are valid emotions in that situation; you wouldn't really want him to be ice cold during that, either. I guess the irony is supposed to be that Sherlock finally accepted "sentiment" into his life, and instead of improving him, it nearly destroyed him. I'm rather hoping that's not the lesson he learns from it, though.
 

[Arcadia]

Ah yes, he might have been testing Mary to see if she really felt anything for John or was just faking. I'm surprised she didn't just try to save him herself actually, she wasted time going to get Sherlock.

 

I wondered that too after it came out who/what she really was. But then I figured, maybe she's relatively new to London and doesn't know her way around that well, and knows from listening to John that Sherlock is a walking street map. Or ... CAM instructed her to go to Sherlock. Since most of the messages after that seemed directed specifically at "Mr. Holmes", maybe that's the more sensible explanation?

 

[Pseudonym]

Or perhaps she was still trying to maintain her cover, and knew it would be suspicious if she suddenly turned all superwoman and dragged John out herself. 

[Arcadia]

Good point.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... he's comfortable handling a gun (a bit too comfortable the way he flips them about and uses them to scratch his head).

I took that to be a nervous reaction -- like he was totally unaccustomed to handling a gun and/or too flustered to remember not to scratch his head with it.

[Inge l-w]

Sorry, as a rifle owner, I can say from expert knowledge, you NEVER scratch your head with a loaded firearm, no matter if the safety catch is still on or not! It was one of the most gag-inducing scenes in the whole series. But, then, again, Mr Gatiss is an actor/scriptwriter, and the pair of them don't believe in calling in experts to cover their faux pas. Pity, that!

[Pseudonym]

I think everyone knows it's a stupid thing to do and a massive no-no, I think the point is to show how frazzled he is over the whole situation, he is pacing back and forth and fumblingly trying to thank John and just all around in a state. I think it might also be to show how reckless he can be and how sometimes his cool, calm demeanour is nothing more than an act. I don't think they wrote it because they didn't realise it was dangerous.

[Van Buren Supernova]

as Sherlock decided to shoot CAM he couldn't know that he would get away with it. He took the risk of being shot immediately by Mycroft's men or being prosecuted for a murder.

And yup, I don't think Sherlock would let anyone burn to death, I think he would even have saved Anderson if it came down to it.

I guess the irony is supposed to be that Sherlock finally accepted "sentiment" into his life, and instead of improving him, it nearly destroyed him. I'm rather hoping that's not the lesson he learns from it, though.

All above.

 

I am scatterbrained now, usual excuse, but I hope I still make sense somehow.

 

Imo, Sherlock was living by logic, very near to sociopath, machine or whatever you want to call it. He does necessary things without being affected like ordinary people. He solves cases as puzzles, problems, because it's logical to stop murderers or bad guys. It's something 'right' to do. I don't think he cares more about the victims than them being a result. Same thing with him saving anyone from bonfire, because it makes sense. I think he thinks that way, so he doesn't really have any emotional attachments with people he saves, in a same way he doesn't feel any guilt for those who are in his way.

 

I do believe that he has no remorse with CAM. To him, CAM is a cancer that needed to be plucked from earth. A lot of people want him gone, but no one is pulling the trigger.

 

What does it say about him? Not good.

What could redeem him? I believe he makes harsh decision to kill Cam right then and there because of John. He would engage in battle of wits, I strongly believe that, he always tries that before violence, like we saw from other cases, he doesn't even have a friggin gun or weapon, but he killed Cam, for John, because he thinks he has to.

 

So something actually change from the cold hearted detached person he once was, which is sadly, make him doing something bad. He still doesn't feel remorse, but he kills Cam not because he is a cold hearted psychopath, he was trying to protect his best friend, and he was losing, he was panicking because he might not have another chance. That bast*ard was flicking John's face and threatening his wife, he just stood there helpless and it would happen again in bigger scale if not for that couple of minute window.

 

There will be consequences, I believe that, there are so much to explore, just wait for it.

(And don't come back crying if fhe consequences are heartbreaking because it would be, serve you all right who call for punishment for dear Sherlock XD!!)

Maybe I have too much faith with the writers, but I am ready to be heartbroken... who am I kidding?? I call dibs on that fetal shaped corner..!

 

...and I still think there's a taste out there in the modern audience for brains over brawn. I don't know if any of them have been successful or not, but there's been several Sherlock clones on TV in the past couple of years; heck, in the history of television ... that is, characters who are smarter than the bad guys, not simply deadlier.

I see there are more show about brains over brawns in modern television. To name a few that I know, maybe a bit spoiling, show like Breaking Bad relies on brain, Hannibal is also battle of wits in some degree more than the action or killing. GoT also highlight that brawn is almost useless, House of course, Monk, none of those rely on brawn in any way, and many other brainy serials that are about brain power nowadays.

[Boton]

See? Another cross post.

 

 

I guess what I really think is that he lost by descending to the level of "ordinary" people. He let love and rage take over and drive his actions. So in that sense, yeah, he betrayed his own intellect.

 

The funny thing is, both of those are valid emotions in that situation; you wouldn't really want him to be ice cold during that, either. I guess the irony is supposed to be that Sherlock finally accepted "sentiment" into his life, and instead of improving him, it nearly destroyed him. I'm rather hoping that's not the lesson he learns from it, though.

 

 

Yeah, the lesson so far seems to be that Sherlock can't handle emotion, which flies in the face of what fans seem to want, which is a more emotional Sherlock.  

 

 

 

... he's comfortable handling a gun (a bit too comfortable the way he flips them about and uses them to scratch his head).

I took that to be a nervous reaction -- like he was totally unaccustomed to handling a gun and/or too nervous to remember not to scratch his head with it.

 

 

I took that as two things:

 

A) In real life, BC is a "twiddler," and he was twiddling when he shouldn't have been, but

B )In-universe, I think it indicates that Sherlock is a good shot but not good handling a gun.  My head canon is that Sherlock learned to shoot as he would have learned any other skill (and perhaps in parallel to the facility with the single stick, as we were saying above): he went to a range, and he became proficient.  But being able to hit a target doesn't mean that you automatically handle the gun well.  To me, it's another indication that, at least through TGG, his skills in this department were very largely theoretical or academic, rather than based on practical experience.  I like to think that, in Serbia, he may have become more comfortable with a gun even if he didn't use it to kill someone outright like he did with CAM.

[Arcadia]

I love the twiddling. It reveals the playfulness under the stern exterior. Unfortunately, I think Ben's tried to train himself out of it. Unsuccessfully, one hopes. But I don't remember any twiddling in S3. :(

 

 

 

 

[J.P.]

Right. And I forgot to ask Moftiss for more twiddling in the future. :P

[Arcadia]

You still have a chance!