Episode 4.0: The Abominable Bride (alias The Special)

[Shadow Dweller]

A narcissist is always only on his own side, he will do what it takes to fulfill his needs regardless of the cost for others. :D In so far of HLV, he sacrificed his parents and brother for the sake of 'saving' John's chance for happiness or what he think it is. Do you think in a world of grays he made the right choice by exposing his blood and flesh to people who might want to see them suffer as punishment for the death of CAM?

[Pamela]

 

Geez. I can't. I can't read anymore. I decided to cocoon today and stayed in bed, reading the first chapters of the ACD collection. And now it's even more to read. HEEEEEELP!

Do you think that it's time to split this thread into some more specific ones?

I think a couple of new "TAB" threads have already been started, and I have one in mind myself as soon as I get to see the Special a few more times ... so as far as I'm concerned, go for it. Just make sure "SPOILER" is in the title to warn off any unsuspecting visitors.

 

 

Where are those threads, Arcadia?

[sfmpco]

I was thinking when he was beating on that corpse that he probably had to find a way to do it where he didn't injure himself with repetitive motion, because he doesn't have a full arm swing like he did in ASIP, which I found a more believable way of beating something.  Didn't quite buy the small range of motion in the pilot, either.  I'm sure the sound was heightened in post production, but dang... would not ever want to get on the wrong side of that cane!

[sfmpco]

 

 

Anyway, my feeling is that all the scenes with Mycroft were in Sherlock's head, but won't swear to it until I've seen it a few more times.

 

 

Certainly fat Mycroft is in Sherlock's head as is the whole sequence of waking up in the bed and going to Emilia's grave.  The other two scenes - the plane landing and his initial awakening to the final awakening after he jumps off the ledge....those two airplane scenes with Mycroft are real.

 

Was thinking that when Sherlock took the drugs in HLV - he was trying to catch the media attention, specifially of CAM.  So he didn't do drugs then because he was bored or because they heightened his mental faculties.  Let's face it:  he could have faked it somehow if he chose to, but he chose to actually use drugs... and Mycroft did not ask him for a list (I'm assuming they thought of that plot device later).  

 

Also wondering if the "list" is only for if he takes more than one thing.  I am need go back and count the times in TAB where I think he has either taken another hit or a different drug, and I'm going to say there are at least 3-5.

 

Every time he says he needs to go deeper, I think he's taking a hit.

[sittything]

Just got back from the theater.  I most definitely waved at Mark Gatiss on the big screen.   :facepalm:

 

 

[Arcadia]

I just got back too, and I'm still not sure about what's real and what ain't ... it seems like the first scene, after the plane lands, and the last scene, where Sherlock says he knows what Moriarty is going to do, were real ... but I'm still not a 100% sure because there's so much happening at that point.

 

Sherlock jumping from the ledge ... so far I have no idea what I'm supposed to make of that.

 

A narcissist is always only on his own side, he will do what it takes to fulfill his needs regardless of the cost for others. :D In so far of HLV, he sacrificed his parents and brother for the sake of 'saving' John's chance for happiness or what he think it is. Do you think in a world of grays he made the right choice by exposing his blood and flesh to people who might want to see them suffer as punishment for the death of CAM?

Aghggh, don't get me started on HLV, there's so many choices there I take issue with! But basically, I think my answer is, I don't agree with your premise. I don't think he exposed his family. But if he had? I don't know, I think Sherlock's primary loyalty is to John, and I hesitate to say there's anything wrong with that. I for one would hate to be in a position of choosing between my family and my closest friend.

 

 

 

Geez. I can't. I can't read anymore. I decided to cocoon today and stayed in bed, reading the first chapters of the ACD collection. And now it's even more to read. HEEEEEELP!

Do you think that it's time to split this thread into some more specific ones?

I think a couple of new "TAB" threads have already been started, and I have one in mind myself as soon as I get to see the Special a few more times ... so as far as I'm concerned, go for it. Just make sure "SPOILER" is in the title to warn off any unsuspecting visitors.

Where are those threads, Arcadia?

There's this one: http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/3273-spoilers-221-baker-street-1895/?do=findComment&comment=89419

 

and I could have sworn I saw a second one, but now I can't find it. Hrm.

[Shadow Dweller]

He choose John as part of his family but it is his hero-martyr syndrome as well as short-sightedness that tipped the scale. Is it more ethical than using someone like CAM as a tool to achieve certain objectives even when it means certain sacrifice? Both are for the greater good but on different scales. No wonder Mycroft still see him as a child, it is not sentiment but the result of brutally honest assessment of Sherlock at that time.

[sfmpco]

He choose John as part of his family but it is his hero-martyr syndrome as well as short-sightedness that tipped the scale. Is it more ethical than using someone like CAM as a tool to achieve certain objectives even when it means certain sacrifice? Both are for the greater good but on different scales. No wonder Mycroft still see him as a child, it is not sentiment but the result of brutally honest assessment of Sherlock at that time.

 

I'm going to quibble about Mycroft seeing Sherlock as a child since that's all in Sherlock's mind palace in HLV - so technically Sherlock is seeing himself as the bad, slow child and he's using Mycroft's voice to scold himself.

[Carol the Dabbler]

bit random, but.... now that I've had time to think about it, why couldn't they have gotten a better screengrab for the 'photograph' of Irene kept by 'Holmes' as a memento?? It even *looked* like it was a modern photo, with her wearing a hint of modern dress :D  couldn't they have Photoshopped a Victorian portrait or something?

 

Seems like they could have, and it's odd that they didn't (considering how careful they were with everything else).  But maybe they wanted to show that Sherlock chooses not to think of her in any way but that for some reason?  Or maybe they were planning to have Lara Pulver in and take her picture in Victorian garb, but they were never able to get together, and finally ran out of time.  Or maybe they couldn't justify a costume for just one photo?  Or they did take her photo in a Victorian outfit, but she just didn't look like Irene that way?

 

One thing I noticed this time out is that when Holmes says that Watson has been wounded in the war, Watson kind of looks surprised and then glances at his shoulder and then his cane.  It's the wrong shoulder, I think, but I'll take that as another nod to what someone (on Tumblr?) called "Arthur 'Continuity' Doyle."   :D

Going by canon, "Study in Pink," and (according to Ariane DeVere) the opening scenes of TAB, it should be his left shoulder.  I'll have to pay attention tonight -- if I can remember to look for that, with everything else going on!

Yup, he sure does -- glances at his right shoulder!

 

I've only seen it once so far, but at the beginning after "Alternately ...", didn't the time scroll back to 1880 something (the scroll didn't stop) ?

 

Yes -- because they're showing Watson's experience in Afghanistan, followed by his first meeting with Holmes.  But by the time we see him with a mustache, it's 1895.

 

Caution! Another images that cannot be unseen

 

https://twitter.com/Anythingbatch/status/684862932761600000

Spiffy! Have any about how they did the face and hands? :D

I was wondering the same thing. I had found the overall effect so believable that I had been assuming it was all done with computers.

[Shadow Dweller]

 

 

He choose John as part of his family but it is his hero-martyr syndrome as well as short-sightedness that tipped the scale. Is it more ethical than using someone like CAM as a tool to achieve certain objectives even when it means certain sacrifice? Both are for the greater good but on different scales. No wonder Mycroft still see him as a child, it is not sentiment but the result of brutally honest assessment of Sherlock at that time.

I'm going to quibble about Mycroft seeing Sherlock as a child since that's all in Sherlock's mind palace in HLV - so technically Sherlock is seeing himself as the bad, slow child and he's using Mycroft's voice to scold himself.

The Louis Moffat scene is not in Sherlock's mind palace.

[sfmpco]

 

 

He choose John as part of his family but it is his hero-martyr syndrome as well as short-sightedness that tipped the scale. Is it more ethical than using someone like CAM as a tool to achieve certain objectives even when it means certain sacrifice? Both are for the greater good but on different scales. No wonder Mycroft still see him as a child, it is not sentiment but the result of brutally honest assessment of Sherlock at that time.

I'm going to quibble about Mycroft seeing Sherlock as a child since that's all in Sherlock's mind palace in HLV - so technically Sherlock is seeing himself as the bad, slow child and he's using Mycroft's voice to scold himself.

The Louis Moffat scene is not in Sherlock's mind palace.

 

 

The first one most definitely is, and I contend the second one is also.  Why?  Because the first one is Sherlock's view of himself, and therefore the second one must needs also be how Sherlock views himself.  I believe Sherlock went into his mind palace when he went into a bit of shock after shooting Magnussen, and now he is the scared, frightened younger brother seeking help from his older brother.  It's not how Mycroft sees him.  It's how Sherlock sees himself.

[Carol the Dabbler]

We saw TAB at the theater tonight, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

The auditorium was about half full, but of course there may have been a larger audience last night.  Most people appeared to be young-ish, but there were no little kids and I didn't even notice any teens -- mostly twenties and thirties, I think, though there was also a scattering of us older folks.  About two thirds of the attendees were women.  I got the impression that most were familiar with the show and probably considered themselves to be fans (I noticed several scarves worn a la Sherlock), but were not capital-F Fans.

 

The extra features appeared to be geared toward those small-f fans.  For example, the trivia questions were generally pretty easy (though a few were not strictly Sherlock-related, and I didn't know the answers to those).  My favorite part of the extras was when Martin Freeman did a few of Watson's lines from TAB in the style of Nigel Bruce.

 

And I now remember the line in the episode that I thought was particularly clever.  Victorian Moriarty tells Victorian Holmes, "It's a dangerous habit to finger loaded firearms in the pocket of one's dressing-gown" (at which point I laughed because that's straight out of canon, specifically "The Final Problem"), and then "or are you just pleased to see me?" (at which point I laughed again because that's straight out of "The Great Game").  I find the juxtaposition particularly amusing.

 

Oh, and I assume that fat-Mycroft's arms and face were done with glue-on prosthetics, like what they used on the dwarves in The Hobbit.

 

[sfmpco]

Did you notice the bit trivia that was wrong?  

 

The trivia about The Blind Banker - asking which tune was played on Moriarty's phone at the end?  Uh... technically he wasn't even in that episode, and when we hear that song it's not until ASIB at the beginning.  

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Here's a discussion on Reddit concerning the sign-language scene at the Diogenes Club.  One participant translates the signs used.  And here's an article by the woman who taught the actors how to sign.

[sfmpco]

I also noticed in the credits that Janine's last name is Donlevy.

[Shadow Dweller]

It is a long shot if that scene is in the mind palace. Why didn't we see it through the eyes of Sherlock like the Redbeard scene instead of a second-person POV featuring a half-body little Sherlock?

[J.P.]

 

Caution! Another images that cannot be unseen

 

https://twitter.com/Anythingbatch/status/684862932761600000

Spiffy! Have any about how they did the face and hands? :D

 

The Victorian version have more hair than the modern Mycroft. :o

 

The Victorian version have more of everything! :D

The face and hands are prostethics. Would like to see the process of applying them too.

 

[Arcadia]

Guess I'll stick this here.
 

We know YOU want the skull print from the Victorian 221B Baker Street…
Available here: http://www.art.co.uk/products/p10104415-sa-i1286900/allan-c-gilbert-all-is-vanity.htm

[Arcadia]

Did you notice the bit trivia that was wrong?  

 

The trivia about The Blind Banker - asking which tune was played on Moriarty's phone at the end?  Uh... technically he wasn't even in that episode, and when we hear that song it's not until ASIB at the beginning.  

Even worse -- that bit of trivia wasn't even about the The Blind Banker ... it was trivia about The Blind Baker! For me that was almost the biggest laugh of the night. :D

 

Carol, my cinematic experience was so similar to yours it's almost eerie ... were we in the same theater? :D

 

Also, I found it far easier to follow the dialog in the theater, which may say something about the state of my TV's speakers more than anything else. I missed half BC's lines on the TV, I think. Hoo, snarky Holmes! :D There was some very, very funny dialog in this episode. One of the biggest laughs came near the end, when John corrected himself to say Mary was taking him home ... the men in the theater laughed loudest, bless them.

 

I can't get worked up too much about the women in KKK outfits stuff ... it's obvious they weren't comparing women to the Klan, people are dredging that up just to make a noise, imo. Nor do I believe it had anything to do with suffrage or feminism (as I understand the latter, at any rate) --  I think it was directed at cultures in the present day who still deny women basic rights. (Taliban, etc.)

 

What was weird to me was that it was Mycroft who was speaking out on behalf of women ("it's a war we must lose") -- it doesn't strike me as the kind of thing he would be concerned about. In fact, Mycroft was out of character, imo, all the way through ... too jolly in the Diogenes scenes, too caring in the plane, too accepting of Mary's freewheeling style. This is not the repressed man I remember from the series, but I'm not sure what to make of it. It does seem to be setting us up for some sort of separation between him and Sherlock ... which would be good for Sherlock, imo. Mycroft meddles in his life too much.

[sfmpco]

It is a long shot if that scene is in the mind palace. Why didn't we see it through the eyes of Sherlock like the Redbeard scene instead of a second-person POV featuring a half-body little Sherlock?

 

We don't have a second-person POV of young Sherlock.  Mycroft's POV from the helicopter shows adult Sherlock.  We see child Sherlock because that's how he sees himself - there on Magnussen's veranda and in his mind palace.  It's only Sherlock's POV.  You can't establish it's Sherlock's POV  earlier and then suddenly say it isn't anymore.  It's only Sherlock's POV for continuity.

[Slithytove]

Sherlock is a child in his Mind Palace in HLV, being lectured by his big brother, but I was never sure about the scene after the shooting.  It seems to be Mycroft's POV - "Oh, Sherlock, what have you done?", as Mycroft is looking down from the helicopter - but I was never certain whether we were seeing the weeping child through his eyes, or Sherlock's or both.  Personally, I think it makes sense that both might see him, at that moment, as a frightened little boy.

 

I do agree that Mycroft sometimes seems out of character sometimes in TAB.  It's interesting, given that it is Sherlock's fantasy.  Does it suggest that he understands that, beneath the cold exterior, there is a more flexible and more caring person? Or does it just mean that he wishes Mycroft was like that?  Certainly Mycroft's reaction to Sherlock's drug use is far more gentle and reassuring than it was in HLV.  I wonder if TAB Mycroft is the brother Sherlock wishes for? 

[sfmpco]

I think Mycroft (not the Victorian version) has possibly become a little warmer through the series as well - and keep in mind that he had thought he as sending his little brother off to his death, so that's got to be weighing a bit on him.  He'd rather have an addict brother than no brother.  

 

I suspect we'll see more of their relationship explored in S4 plus I hope we get more of the Redbeard issue out in the open.

[Arcadia]

I thought the same thing.... is this the brother Sherlock knows, or the one he wishes for? And at least one of those bits of Mycroft was in the real world, I think ... although that may have been the one where he asks for the list and is really annoyed ... which would be more like "our" Mycroft, come to think of it. Clearly I need to see it again!

 

By the way, someone asked why Mycroft said Sherlock's drug use was his fault -- it appeared to me that Mycroft was referring solely to the week Sherlock spent in jail. Also he said something like "I should have realized", and I quite agree; he should've. Although perhaps he was so p.o.'d at Sherlock for being in jail in the first place that he wasn't thinking clearly.

 

By the way, Mary working for Mycroft ... I wonder if that's what Sherlock believes, what he knows, or just how he thinks of her? Oooooh, this is getting fun......

[Boton]

 

 

 

Was thinking that when Sherlock took the drugs in HLV - he was trying to catch the media attention, specifially of CAM.  So he didn't do drugs then because he was bored or because they heightened his mental faculties.  Let's face it:  he could have faked it somehow if he chose to, but he chose to actually use drugs... and Mycroft did not ask him for a list (I'm assuming they thought of that plot device later).  

 

Also wondering if the "list" is only for if he takes more than one thing.  I am need go back and count the times in TAB where I think he has either taken another hit or a different drug, and I'm going to say there are at least 3-5.

 

Every time he says he needs to go deeper, I think he's taking a hit.

 

 

I agree, I think every time he says "deeper," that's another hit of something.  Probably a stimulant of some sort to heighten his analytic abilities.

 

I still think, in HLV, he'd been clean for some time and thought he could use for a case and be fine.  And then he kind of enjoyed it.  And then, who knows, maybe the months in hospital with various necessary opiates just made things worse, and then here we are.

[Slithytove]

Are we sure that the stuff on the plane was real?  I'm not certain of anything now...