Episode 4.0: The Abominable Bride (alias The Special)

[Carol the Dabbler]

More long-lost people are returning to the forum!  Welcome back, Tunguska and Jess! 

 

According to Sherlock, he made himself. But then he's not always a reliable narrator, is he? ;)

 

I was thinking that when he said he made himself that perhaps he is taking full responsibility for his actions and behavior... no one to blame but himself for the predicament he's in.  

 

I like that interpretation.  For one thing, it could explain the odd look on his face when he said that -- sort of like he'd just seen something worrisome.

 

On the other hand, I really admired the quality of the fatsuit. He looked genuinely obese and not just like a skinny person stuffed like a sausage, imho.

 

Sidenote: Carol, if it's seriously less acceptable to make fun of fat people where you live, I think I should contemplate moving.  -_-

 

Please bear in mind that I didn't say that folks around here don't make fun of fat people, merely that it's considered rude when they do!  But I fully agree about the high quality of Mycroft's makeover.

 

Around here, I think fat people do face prejudice and ridicule, but it somehow seems to be even more accepted to openly joke about slender people. "Yes, but you do not eat", "Maybe you can shop at the children's department", and, recently, "I'll just take two pieces of pie since you never have any" - this from a chubby colleague to a colleague with a very low fat percentage who is exceptionally active in sports (and consequently eats enough to feed a small country ). If the sportswoman would have replied "maybe you really shouldn't eat that", that would have been considered incredibly offensive. But for someone to comment on a skinny person was totally acceptable even though my coleague was hurt.

Bottomline: if everyone would just keep their comments about someone's appearance to themselves, the world would be a much nicer place.

 

Thank you!  I was beginning to think I was just imagining things.  Apparently the assumption is that overweight people really can't help it, whereas underweight people just need to stop starving themselves.  Both assumptions are true in some cases, false in others, and really nobody's business in most cases.

 

Once when I was going through a rough time, a friend said, "You know, Carol, I'm worried about you because you've lost so much weight" [which was true].  I thought a moment and replied, "It's odd that you can say that and it sounds very caring, but if I said, 'You know, Sally, I'm worried about you because you've gained so much weight' [which was also true], that would be considered very rude."  She visibly blanched and started apologizing all over herself, but I interrupted and assured her that I was criticizing societal norms, not her!

 

My take on it wasn't that Mycroft was being stupid or unaware of this health and the ramifications of his current diet, but that those two idiot brothers are so into this whole rivalry thing that Mycroft would literally eat himself to death to prove he is right.  I think he knows full well what he is doing.

 

Hadn't thought of that, but I do believe you're right.  Of course, he's not the real Mycroft, merely an imaginary one that Sherlock can control.  (Bet he enjoys that!)

 

I think you guys are missing that that part is Incredibly relevant, which is why they were so focused on him dying within 2 1/2-5 years. They've been alluding to the idea that Mycroft has a disease that is slowly / quickly killing him. I think that maybe Sherlock's heroine addiction for increasing his thinking power is a sham... He's often sad because just like Redbead the death of his brother is imminent. 

 

But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  I certainly hope that's the case here, and I can't imagine that they'd kill off Mycroft unless it was an incredibly juicy plot point, because I seriously doubt that the character is any kind of problem for them.  He's canon, they're good at writing him, he can be used or not used as is convenient for them, and he's played by a terrific actor who will never be busy elsewhere when they're filming Sherlock.

 

So now because of how that show ended and Moriarty's death is parallel to the death of Ricolleti's?, and it was important that Sherlock made it seem as if he hadn't solved the case for the sake of the Women's Suffrage movement... Are they saying that it's important that Sherlock doesn't stop Moriarty's crew because he's doing something for the good of humanity. Now I have to go back and watch every episode where Moriarty is a presence to completely understand what his purpose is.  

 

I don't think I'd take the analogy quite that far.  However, Mind-Palace Moriarty does seem to serve the useful purpose of keeping Sherlock on his toes (and besides, he's entertaining), so I hope they keep him around.

 

[by the sea]

Hello !  Sorry I haven't had the chance to read the previous 20 pages but finally got to see this last night.  I was sooooooooo ticked off with PBS .. I catch the Buffalo NY channel for HD as here in Eastern Canada, although we're really close to flagship Boston, we only get a local Maine PBS station and it always seem to have high school sports on it !   Anyway, on Friday night, PBS kept the title off the schedule, kept calling it "To Be Announced" in one hour segments.  I prayed it wouldn't interfere with recording and went ahead with it anyway,but, true to form, I got the last bit of New Years in Vienna .. and lovely and rousing it was, too .. and about 35 minutes of TAB.  Rats !  Then on Sunday night, there it was in all its amazing completeness. 

 

I admit to needing a replay to get it all in perspective.  Loved the atmosphere and the scary bride and Molly as a man .. anybody watch Murdoch Mysteries ? .. and Mary always fearless in the face of almost anything.  Mycroft trying to kill himself with plum puddings was a bit weird and Sherlock going into drug induced hallucinations when he was only on the plane for 4 minutes was weirder still.  But I was happy to see Moriarty again .. I love his Irish lilt.  I was unhappy with Lestrade being downtrodden instead of his modern-day harassed.  But, as noted, I'll want to watch it again and am sure to get a better understanding the second, third, fourth time.

 

Debbie
 

[sfmpco]

A tiny interview with Gatiss post TAB:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03f3lzx

[J.P.]

Just another quicky Re: I made me.

 

To me it was (again) a case of them talking a bit past one another. John asks about what caused Sherlock to be "so deeply wounded that he would forsake any love/sex/sentiment". Sherlock takes it as a factual question, maybe with a hint of admiration and answers: oh, John, I am my own making, my own masterpiece, created after the ideal I believe in. Nobody else could do such a thing.

Of course he would never acknowledge Mycroft's share. :D

[sfmpco]

I thoroughly enjoyed fat Mycroft.  Clearly he was still cleverer than Sherlock, and he was quite entertaining in his little bet.  Baker Street Babes brought up the possibility that Sherlock is saying that Mycroft is just as OCD about some things as he is.  Of course we had the OCD remark about Mycroft and straightening the door knocker in HLV.  In a way, it's fun to see that Mycroft is not always in complete control of his environment or even of himself.  He has his weaknesses too.  They both joke about not having a heart - "a family trait" - but yet in real like Mycroft has a big brother heart for Sherlock and Sherlock has the biggest heart of all.

[sfmpco]

Just another quicky Re: I made me.

 

To me it was (again) a case of them talking a bit past one another. John asks about what caused Sherlock to be "so deeply wounded that he would forsake any love/sex/sentiment". Sherlock takes it as a factual question, maybe with a hint of admiration and answers: oh, John, I am my own making, my own masterpiece, created after the ideal I believe in. Nobody else could do such a thing.

Of course he would never acknowledge Mycroft's share. :D

 

And then right after he says "I made me" his next word is "Redbeard."

 

I suspect we'll get more of the Redbeard puzzle in S4.

[J.P.]

He says Redbeard after hearing a dog... Maye it's just a little nudge from his subconscious - nope, you are not entirely in control, even if you made yourself.

[Arcadia]

It was a literal cliff-hanger.

Well, as I live and breathe, looks who's back ... hi Jesskay!

 

 

I was thinking that when he said he made himself that perhaps he is taking full responsibility for his actions and behavior... no one to blame but himself for the predicament he's in.

 

I agree, and I took it more or less the same way.  There's a point in life at which you have to stop blaming your upbringing or your hurtful experiences or whatever for your less-attractive qualities and need to start taking responsibility.  One thing I think we can always say about Sherlock is that he's never been much of one to blame others for his quirks.  Sure, he said that he had a list of things his mother would be held responsible for in his upbringing, but mostly he's acted like he takes full responsibility for himself.  I like that.

 

I think that's why I'm still irritated with Mycroft ... he's into Sherlock's business too much, I don't think he gives him the room he needs to grow. The scene where he starts out saying "I'm not angry" and Sherlock snaps at him ... I get Sherlock's POV completely. Mycroft's his brother, not his keeper, it's not his place to say things like that. I found Mycroft to be a bit more caring than usual on the plane, but at the same time I found him -- as usual -- overbearing. Sherlock tries to take responsibility for himself, but Mycroft undermines him by "always being there for him." Stand back, Myc, and let him fly!

 

My take on it wasn't that Mycroft was being stupid or unaware of this health and the ramifications of his current diet, but that those two idiot brothers are so into this whole rivalry thing that Mycroft would literally eat himself to death to prove he is right.  I think he knows full well what he is doing.

Mine too.

 

A tiny interview with Gatiss post TAB:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03f3lzx

 

I agree with Mr. Gatiss ... now that I've had a chance to absorb it, I don't find the story overcomplicated at all, the timeline is quite clear and so are the transitions from one era to the other ... with some deliberate fraying of the edges between the two in the middle section. Although I suppose some people must watch Sherlock the same way I do most other shows; with half my attention fixed elsewhere. But in that case I wouldn't think it fair of me to claim the plot's too hard to follow!

[Arcadia]

I can't make anything of either comment, to be honest ... not enough data.

[Slithytove]

Regarding the "I made myself" comment - I took that to be an admission of responsibility, not a boast.  Mainly because he looks and sounds quite sad when he says it.  It is a far cry from the bragging about being the only consulting detective in the world, and inventing the job, in ASIP.  I thought he recognised, with resignation if not regret, that he had made himself into the man that he is - with all of his flaws, as well as his virtues.  Of course, I may have been reading too much into it. 

[sfmpco]

Sorry... missed the point about what I was saying about the juxtaposition of him saying "I made me" with "Redbeard." - it's as if right after saying "I made me" that there is something about Redbeard that contributed to who he is... trust me, that wasn't a throw away line at that very moment - nor was it just because of some faint dog noises.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I was unhappy with Lestrade being downtrodden instead of his modern-day harassed.

 

I think that's pretty much canon.  As I said in a far less appropriate context the other day, I get the feeling that Victorian police (even officers) were seen as pretty low on the social ladder.  And of course our Sherlock has never been known for his tact.

 

And welcome back, Debbie! 

[sfmpco]

here's a question for debate after TAB:  is Mycroft enabling Sherlock's drug habit?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

He very well could be even if unintentionally.

[Carol the Dabbler]

At the comment on Irenes photo in the pocket watch , the pocket watch is a stand in for the mobile phone of Irenes Sherlock kept , and thats why it makes the same noise.

 

:facepalm:   Oh, of course!  Just as John's cell phone in "Study in Pink" was a stand-in for Watson's pocket watch in "Sign of the Four."  Thank you. 

Wait, what? The pocket watch made a noise? THAT noise? (How did I miss that?) (Although I missed hearing Holmes say "Redbeard" too, the first time .... I really need to check the speakers on my TV, apparently!)

 

I didn't notice it making a noise either, Arcadia.  (I was replying only to the "standin" part of Butterfly's post.)  Will have to pay attention when he opens that pocket watch tonight!

Well, there was some sort of a noise when Irene's photo was shown -- I heard it a couple of times, I think.  But there was so much else on the soundtrack right then that I can't say for certain whether it was that noise or not.  But I think it might have been.  Ariane DeVere says nothing about any noise at that point.  Anyone else have an opinion?

 

[sfmpco]

He very well could be even if unintentionally.

 

An enabler often thinks they are being helpful, but if Mycroft never lets Sherlock hit rock bottom in one way or another and instead always rescues him, that isn't really helping Sherlock, especially in the case of drug addiction.  I mean, he even apologizes and blames himself for Sherlock's drugged state for having him be in solitary confinement!

 

Sherlock was looking again to Mycroft to be rescued at the end of HLV.  The crying young Sherlock as if to say, "I've made a big mistake, I'm in over my head, I'm scared and I need your help big brother."

[T.o.b.y]

About Redbeard... I don't really believe there's much more to that story other than Redbeard was Sherlock's dog as a kid, he loved him and he died.

 

Some people would say it isn't plausible that a grown man is still hurting over the loss of a childhood pet, but some people have never loved a dog. I think this was the first time Sherlock felt the pain of loss, and because he is actually a man of very intense feelings, it was so horrible for him that he decided to close his emotions down as best he could. I think this is what he means by "I made me", he is the way he is by choice. Of course Mycroft must have heavily influenced that choice, and you have to wonder what kind of a family would encourage a little boy to just try and never love or feel or hurt again instead of teaching him better ways to deal with his sorrow. But in Sherlock's mind, the "perfect calculating machine" is of his own making. I guess he feels better about himself like this.

[sfmpco]

I cannot imagine his parents would have encouraged that kind of emotional lockdown.  They are ordinary, and it seems, quite loving and concerned.  Mycroft, on the other hand, clearly feels far superior to them and ranks Sherlock also as superior to them.  I think it's Mycroft who has more influence on Sherlock than his parents.

 

I don't think the Redbeard issue is terribly complicated, but I also don't think we've heard the last of it.  Like I said, there are no spare lines in Sherlock.

[Arcadia]

Regarding the "I made myself" comment - I took that to be an admission of responsibility, not a boast.  Mainly because he looks and sounds quite sad when he says it.  It is a far cry from the bragging about being the only consulting detective in the world, and inventing the job, in ASIP.  I thought he recognised, with resignation if not regret, that he had made himself into the man that he is - with all of his flaws, as well as his virtues.  Of course, I may have been reading too much into it. 

I doubt if you are. That sequence was odd to me because there was no resolution to it, just questions. I can't help but think they're setting the foundation for some future revelation, otherwise there seems no point to that scene.

 

Sorry... missed the point about what I was saying about the juxtaposition of him saying "I made me" with "Redbeard." - it's as if right after saying "I made me" that there is something about Redbeard that contributed to who he is... trust me, that wasn't a throw away line at that very moment - nor was it just because of some faint dog noises.

And that was the other weird part of that conversation! I agree, it needs to mean something, or it shouldn't be there. What it means, I can't begin to guess.

 

here's a question for debate after TAB:  is Mycroft enabling Sherlock's drug habit?

 

Wow. Hm.

 

I assume you don't mean he's actually providing the drugs? (I nominate Billy Wiggins for that particular little role.) So, yeah, maybe. You know the phrase "helicopter parents"? Mycroft's like a helicopter brother, always around to pick Sherlock up when he's knocked down, instead of letting him climb to his feet on his own. Can't believe that's very good for the boy.

 

 

At the comment on Irenes photo in the pocket watch , the pocket watch is a stand in for the mobile phone of Irenes Sherlock kept , and thats why it makes the same noise.

 

:facepalm:   Oh, of course!  Just as John's cell phone in "Study in Pink" was a stand-in for Watson's pocket watch in "Sign of the Four."  Thank you. 

Wait, what? The pocket watch made a noise? THAT noise? (How did I miss that?) (Although I missed hearing Holmes say "Redbeard" too, the first time .... I really need to check the speakers on my TV, apparently!)

 

I didn't notice it making a noise either, Arcadia.  (I was replying only to the "standin" part of Butterfly's post.)  Will have to pay attention when he opens that pocket watch tonight!

Well, there was some sort of a noise when Irene's photo was shown -- I heard it a couple of times, I think.  But there was so much else on the soundtrack right then that I can't say for certain whether it was that noise or not.  But I think it might have been.  Ariane DeVere says nothing about any noise at that point.  Anyone else have an opinion?

 

Oh, yeah, I forgot. There's a couple of breathy sighs, but that's it. But I guess that would be the Victorian version of the moan on the phone.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Regarding the "I made myself" comment - I took that to be an admission of responsibility, not a boast.  Mainly because he looks and sounds quite sad when he says it.  It is a far cry from the bragging about being the only consulting detective in the world, and inventing the job, in ASIP.  I thought he recognised, with resignation if not regret, that he had made himself into the man that he is - with all of his flaws, as well as his virtues.  Of course, I may have been reading too much into it. 

I doubt if you are. That sequence was odd to me because there was no resolution to it, just questions. I can't help but think they're setting the foundation for some future revelation, otherwise there seems no point to that scene.

 

Sorry... missed the point about what I was saying about the juxtaposition of him saying "I made me" with "Redbeard." - it's as if right after saying "I made me" that there is something about Redbeard that contributed to who he is... trust me, that wasn't a throw away line at that very moment - nor was it just because of some faint dog noises.

And that was the other weird part of that conversation! I agree, it needs to mean something, or it shouldn't be there. What it means, I can't begin to guess.

 

Am I missing something? For me, that scene was straightforward enough: John was (once again) questioning Sherlock's portrayal of himself as a man without feelings, specifically romantic and / or sexual feelings. That's happened in real life, why wouldn't it in Sherlock's imagination? "What made you like this?" seems to imply that there's something wrong with Sherlock, that this is a deficit, and the doctor in Dr Watson is trying to figure out the cause of the problem. Sherlock on the other hand sees the way he handles (or tries to handle...) emotions, love and sex as an achievement, a conscious choice: "I made me!" (see also in other episodes: "there is nothing wrong with me" and similar lines). Then he remembers Redbeard, how attached he was to him and how he suffered when he died, and he has to acknowledge that maybe it wasn't so very rational and calculated a decision on his part after all.

 

 

[J.P.]

Regarding the "I made myself" comment - I took that to be an admission of responsibility, not a boast.  Mainly because he looks and sounds quite sad when he says it.  It is a far cry from the bragging about being the only consulting detective in the world, and inventing the job, in ASIP.  I thought he recognised, with resignation if not regret, that he had made himself into the man that he is - with all of his flaws, as well as his virtues.  Of course, I may have been reading too much into it. 

 

I never saw Sherlock as being unhappy with himself, or regretting being different. Even in the morgue scene with Mycroft, his question about something being wrong with them I always hear it as is there anything wrong with us - as opposite to the rest of the human race being wrong, as he assumed. Been there, done that - first you wonder what's wrong with the others, before you realize that you are the "wrong" one. :P

 

The way you write, responsibility sounds too much like guilt for me. I don't see it in Sherlock, not regarding himself.

 

If someone asked me, what made me into that - so, so sad and pitiful - introvert, almost asexual, nerdy person who would rather write online instead of chatting with (almost non existent) friends, I would give a similar answer now: that there was most probably no big trauma in my life, that nobody destroyed me, that it's how I was born, and circumstances wouldn't change much. And I don't feel destroyed or sad or pitiful. Well, watching Sherlock made me even feeling a bit proud and RIGHT being like this.

 

Of course Sherlock under Mycroft's influence was thought that you are what you make out of yourself, and that to much greater extent than other children, so he doesn't value external influences that much.

 

Well, maybe it's just me. :D Have to watch it again.

[Van Buren Supernova]

This thread is hard to follow, so I do my comment out of order, as and when, anytime, because I haven't read most of the latest ones.

 

Just another quicky Re: I made me.

..nope, you are not entirely in control, even if you made yourself.

Although the idea is great, and it's almost romantic in odd way, something always made someone.

I don't believe for one second that nothing made me.

 

That is what make us different, and will never be, replaced by Artificial Intelligence.

Because we are setient being. One day AI will get so good that it will calculate all hormon-supposed feeling relations and relay multiple scenarios to determine how it should feel and react, but it's still artificial emotion. Sentient is not measurable, scientific approach only scratches the surface.

Something always made someone.

 

Although I suppose some people must watch Sherlock the same way I do most other shows; with half my attention fixed elsewhere.

I do that with every other shows, except Sherlock.

I learned not to make that mistake again.

[Boton]

here's a question for debate after TAB:  is Mycroft enabling Sherlock's drug habit?

 

I agree that he is, but unintentionally.  The way I'm starting to think of it, Mycroft got the mistaken impression at some point that he was supposed to help "parent" Sherlock.  Maybe it was when Sherlock was born ("you're a big brother now and have to help look out for him") or maybe it was when they went to boarding school ("make sure nothing happens to Sherlock"), but that seven year age difference is enough for young Mycroft to have felt like an adult but not really had any of the tools of adulthood to help Sherlock out.  And so moving difficulties out of Sherlock's way and cleaning up his messes became Mycroft's MO, along with calling their parents.

 

Right now, I do think Mycroft worries a great deal about Sherlock, and I don't think he means to enable any kind of harmful behavior, but there it is.

[Arcadia]

This isn't exactly enabling ... but I do think Sherlock lashes out at Mycroft by being reckless, because Mycroft (apparently) never is. Just another way for Sherlock to demonstrate that he's not a flawed copy of his big brother but a person in his own right. Not very smart of him, but very understandable.

 

Does that mean that somewhere inside, Sherlock deeply admires Mycroft?

[Arcadia]

 

Regarding the "I made myself" comment -.....

 

Am I missing something? For me, that scene was straightforward enough: John was (once again) questioning Sherlock's portrayal of himself as a man without feelings, specifically romantic and / or sexual feelings. That's happened in real life, why wouldn't it in Sherlock's imagination? "What made you like this?" seems to imply that there's something wrong with Sherlock, that this is a deficit, and the doctor in Dr Watson is trying to figure out the cause of the problem. Sherlock on the other hand sees the way he handles (or tries to handle...) emotions, love and sex as an achievement, a conscious choice: "I made me!" (see also in other episodes: "there is nothing wrong with me" and similar lines). Then he remembers Redbeard, how attached he was to him and how he suffered when he died, and he has to acknowledge that maybe it wasn't so very rational and calculated a decision on his part after all.

 

 

Well, you're better at parsing out this kind of thing than I am, I've noticed ... so it's probably me that's missing something, not you. But to me, "I made me" was not an answer to the other part of Watson's question: "Why do you need to be alone?" Holmes dodged that one.

 

I never saw Sherlock as being unhappy with himself, or regretting being different....

Oh, I do. For example, the scene that flashes to my mind at this moment is his expression when he realizes he's not going to get to dance with Janine. There was regret there, I think.

 

....Something always made someone.

Agreed, although in this case Sherlock claims that "something" was himself. But you don't make yourself in a vacuum; there's always outside influences, imo.