The Political Thread

[Pseudonym]

I don't have any thoughts about Teresa May one way or the other, but I don't think she is anything like Margaret Thatcher. I'm from the Welsh Valleys, coal mining country, and Margaret Thatcher completely obliterated our entire society.  

[besleybean]

Are we playing top trumps?!

Ha.  Well I live in Scotland and 2 words:  poll tax!

But seriously, I'm a Yorkshire woman and was a student during the miners' strike...dark days indeed.

No I'm not saying TM is as bad as Thatcher, but she's the same party...one inflicted upon Scotland.

[Pseudonym]

No, not top trumps, just pointing out that Thatcher did a hell of a lot of damage.

 

Ha, did you mean 'top trumps' as a pun? In which case I only just got it ;)

[besleybean]

See, I am unintentionally funny all of the time!

And yes, I don't think I have ever implied that Thatcher was anything more than an unadulterated disaster.

[Carol the Dabbler]

And yet you folks survived. I assume the US will still be around in another four (or eight) years.

 

Also, the definition of "disaster" depends on one's personal outlook. Some people were horrified when Obama was elected, but I suspect most of them now think he hasn't turned out too awful bad.

[besleybean]

Surely many of the horrified were just racist, pure and simple?

[Fantasy Lover]

Yep. And many people who voted Trump are also racist

[Pseudonym]

I don't know if people were genuinely scared of Obama though (except maybe the racists) but a lot of people seem terrified of Trump and what he's actually said he plans to do. The best thing to hope for just seems to be that he won't do all that much and will just be lazy for four years. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Surely many of the horrified were just racist, pure and simple?

Yep. And many people who voted Trump are also racist

I don't know if people were genuinely scared of Obama though (except maybe the racists)....

Amazing how much you Europeans know about not only racism in America, but also the true motivations of American voters! ;)

 

Of course some Americans are racists (likewise, so are some Europeans), and of course those people would be unlikely to vote for Obama. But I didn't vote for him either (even though I'm a 1960's-type civil rights advocate), simply because (like a lot of Americans) I don't care for his politics. He seems like a decent fellow on the personal level, though, and I sure wouldn't mind having him as a neighbor (if he were willing to live in my downscale neighborhood).

 

Similarly, there were surely a number of racists who voted for Trump, but there were also a heck of a lot of people who were simply scared silly of Hillary.

 

I've heard a couple of interesting ideas lately. One is that Obama's positive approval ratings were largely due to his affability -- so that even people who disagreed with his policies still approved of him as a person. The conjecture goes on to say that Hillary thought she could win the election by extrapolating the current popular president's policies, not taking into account that people in general do not like her personally.

 

The other interesting point being made is that FDR won the presidency because he knew best how to use radio, the popular medium of his day. Kennedy won because he knew best how to use television. Obama won because he knew best how to utilize the internet. And Trump won because he knew how to exploit social media and "reality" programming. It all makes sense, though I shudder to think that Twitter and "reality" programs are so many people's primary source of input.

[besleybean]

Depressing.

[Pseudonym]

I don't think America is any more or less racist now than it has ever been. Perhaps some people now think their bigoted opinions are okay to share now when they might have kept it hidden before but generally I think the press likes focusing on such things more because it stirs up drama. Something they might have not bothered reporting on six months ago suddenly becomes a huge deal now because it can whip up hysteria which media love to feast on. I find the same thing happening here with Brexit, suddenly the entire country is being painted as a nation of racists and xenophobes, but in reality we, as a country, are no more or less racist than we were before the vote. And a lot of the people who voted for Brexit were not doing it for racist reasons, just like those who voted for Trump. 

Of course I'm not saying racism doesn't exist in the UK or USA, there are terrible things happening, but I don't believe it's any more acceptable or prolific except in the very small minds of some individuals, certainly not in society as a whole.

For America it all comes down to Trump and what he does decide to do; the idea of a muslim registry for example is horrifying, and seems like the first step on a very dangerous and slippery slope. Of course, these are all my views as an outsider, so I don't pretend to know anything about the opinions of people on the streets in America, I can only go by what I read and see through corporate and independent media. I do believe the quote I saw somewhere (can't remember where) that a lot of people might have voted for Trump despite his racism rather than because of it. 

 

[besleybean]

How deluded of them and the world suffers.

[Carol the Dabbler]

What's really sad is that we just had a presidential election where the two major candidates' de facto slogans were "At least he's not Hillary Clinton" and "At least she's not Donald Trump."

[Pseudonym]

It's crazy that it came down to two such bad candidates. Seems a lot of people would have voted for Bernie Sanders had they just been given the chance. 

[besleybean]

If I'd had a vote, I would have done.

But once Hillary was the Dem candidate, I would have rallied behind her.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I saw somewhere (can't remember where) that a lot of people might have voted for Trump despite his racism rather than because of it.

 

 

I'm sure that's true, just as a lot of people voted for Hillary despite her dishonesty and possible criminality rather than because of it.

 

How deluded of them and the world suffers.

You're talking about people who were responsible enough to vote, and who felt that, practically speaking, they had only two options -- neither one of which was palatable.

[besleybean]

Well I really do not see that Hillary is anywhere near as bad as Trump.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Depends on your point of view. Are you less disgusted by a criminal candidate or a scumbag candidate? Also, whose advertised policies do you find the least deplorable? I'd have had to toss a coin if they had actually been the only two candidates.

[besleybean]

I get that.

I would have been tempted to vote for another too, but unfortunately that has let Trump in.

[Pseudonym]

I didn't get it at first, I thought it was just misogyny, but then the more I learnt about her the more and more shady she became. Definitely two terrible candidates though I don't think the world press would have freaked out the way it did if Hillary had been elected. According to one news site I went on Angela Merkel is the most trustworthy 'leader of the free world' now. 

[besleybean]

I like Merkel.

But really?  I think the U.S press would have crucified Hillary...they did a pretty good job, anyway.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Seems a lot of people would have voted for Bernie Sanders had they just been given the chance.

People did have that opportunity, in the primary elections, and more of them voted for Hillary.

 

But I see your point. It would have been a far more meaningful election if the candidates had been Sanders and roughly any of the other Republican contenders.

[Fantasy Lover]

It's crazy that it came down to two such bad candidates. Seems a lot of people would have voted for Bernie Sanders had they just been given the chance.

I heard that he lost because he's a socialist (idk if that is true)

[besleybean]

Sadly true.

[T.o.b.y]

Amazing how much you Europeans know about not only racism in America, but also the true motivations of American voters! ;)

 

...

Similarly, there were surely a number of racists who voted for Trump, but there were also a heck of a lot of people who were simply scared silly of Hillary.

 

And we Europeans are for the most part scared silly of Trump and even more of the other people he is bringing in and giving influential positions in his government.

 

I really, really wish there was nothing to be scared about. I hear people tell me that my fears are unfounded, that I and people who share my concerns are "hysterical", that the new administration will settle down and do a good job, that this election and the outcome was normal. And you know what? I want them to be right. I want to sit back in my chair, drink my tea and say all right, this is democracy, sometimes your side doesn't win, now be a good sport and go along with the result like a good docile citizen. I would love the peace of mind this would bring me.

 

The problem for Us Europeans (especially Us Germans) is that we've seen it before (well, not my generation personally, but our grandparents): Loud-mouthed populist gets democratically elected. He promises jobs, roads, infrastructure, security. He appeals to hurt nationalist pride, promises to make the country great again. Promotes nationalism. Says he represents the working class against the establishment, the corrupt elite, the arrogant intellectuals. Discredits the press, says all they do is spread lies (especially when the press prints unpleasant truths that people rather wouldn't hear). Points to a religious / cultural group and uses it as a scapegoat, builds a collective fear of those people which leads to wide-spread acceptance of discriminatory practices against them. People back then said not to worry as well. Said when he came into office that he didn't mean half of what he said, that he would settle down. The conservative party backed him up in parliament. Other countries tried to foster good diplomatic relations.

 

And then it all went to hell.

 

We feel a responsibility not to let that happen again. And now we sit here and wonder: is this a false alarm? Are we hysterical? Or has the time come where history is about to repeat itself, in which case, what the F*** can we do to prevent a similar outcome?

 

Time will tell. But we don't know if we have the time. And that is scary.