The Political Thread

[T.o.b.y]

We don't get to elect the German president, either... But he doesn't have much political power. To be completely honest, I don't even quite understand why we have one.

[besleybean]

That's exactly how I feel about the monarchy.

Total waste of money.

[T.o.b.y]

How much does the British monarchy actually cost the tax-payers? How much of every tax dollar, pardon, pound, goes to maintaining it?

[besleybean]

I have no idea.

But I feel if we have to fund it, we should get a say in choosing it!

[J.P.]

But I also don't like the fact the Monarch is the head of an established church.

 

Well, in Poland it looks like the Church becomes more and more the head of the country :(

[besleybean]

Wouldn't suit me at all.

I have no desire to live under a theocracy.

[T.o.b.y]

I have no idea.

But I feel if we have to fund it, we should get a say in choosing it!

 

Sounds fair...

 

You know, I really have nothing against taxes. The only part that bothers me is when our tax money is wasted or spent on projects that almost none of the people who paid for them get any benefit from.

 

I once read that if they were given the choice, a majority of the British population would decide to keep the monarchy. I wonder what benefit they think they are getting from it?

 

That I don't really understand what our president is for doesn't mean he's useless, of course, just that I am not as well educated as I should be. I think he's supposed to be a safeguard in case we Germans elect another potential dictator, because he can block the passing of laws, for example.

 

[besleybean]

Well we have two houses of parliament and a monarch, but two out of the three need a complete overhaul!

[J.P.]

 

Wouldn't suit me at all.

I have no desire to live under a theocracy.

 

Here some more info about it. Looks very much like a firtst step to abolish the separation of church and state.

I wonder if I need a christening document to be allowed to cross the border. Would need a fake one.

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/polish-bishops-and-president-duda-declare-christ-king-poland

http://freethinker.co.uk/2016/11/20/poland-becomes-a-monarchy-with-jesus-christ-as-king/comment-page-1/

 

In the eighties I saw the church as a counterbalance to the comunist dictature. In the nineties I started to recognize it was rather the other way around.

[besleybean]

Personally I think they are two of a kind and as bad as each other!

[Arcadia]

Or maybe he'll surprise us all, and will actually listen to his advisors.

 

What do you think we're so afraid of? ;)

 

 

 

...In four years?

You're not helping. <_<

 

If it makes you feel better, Britain had to deal with Margaret Thatcher for 11 years

 

Hey, we had to deal with Reagan for 8. Although now those are going to look like the good old days.

 

And yet you folks survived. I assume the US will still be around in another four (or eight) years.

But is mere "survival" our goal as a nation? It's more about what we are, rather than whether we simply exist or not, isn't it? Well, I obviously think it should be, or I wouldn't vote the way I do. At any rate, many people (like me ) would argue that Thatcher's policies left Britain a far more unequal country than it was before her tenure. That is, she fixed the country for some people by leaving it in pieces for others. Or so I have been told by people who've lived there.

 

Also, the definition of "disaster" depends on one's personal outlook. Some people were horrified when Obama was elected, but I suspect most of them now think he hasn't turned out too awful bad.

Some of them, maybe. Most? Not where I live. The amount of vilification levelled his way is pretty sickening. There's still a lot of people who despise everything from his ideals to his speech to his "uppity wife" and "stupid children". Maybe it's just northern Virginia, but I doubt it.

 

I don't think America is any more or less racist now than it has ever been. Perhaps some people now think their bigoted opinions are okay to share now when they might have kept it hidden before but generally I think the press likes focusing on such things more because it stirs up drama.

No, it's not "just" the press, it's real ... I'm hearing far more bigoted comments now than I did a year ago, especially against Muslims. I agree that most people haven't changed; certain ones are just more emboldened to act like a*holes in public. I suspect most will go back underground again eventually, but they'll still be there.

 

I do believe the quote I saw somewhere (can't remember where) that a lot of people might have voted for Trump despite his racism rather than because of it.

That's what many of them have said, yes. I get it; I'm troubled by some of Clinton's traits, but not enough to vote for Trump.

[Arcadia]

 

It's crazy that it came down to two such bad candidates. Seems a lot of people would have voted for Bernie Sanders had they just been given the chance.

I heard that he lost because he's a socialist (idk if that is true)

 

He's not a socialist, but it's true that the right attempted to paint him as one. Many liberals liked his views but assumed he would lose because of the "socialist" label, so they voted for the more moderate Clinton. In hindsight, Bernie may seem like the better choice, but I don't know ... I can't quite imagine any of my conservative acquaintances voting for him, even against Trump.

 

My next door neighbor, who is one of the most apolitical people I know, told me he voted against Clinton because he thinks we need +a conservative Supreme Court. A friend told me her neighbor voted against Clinton because he wants abortion to become illegal again. That kind of thinking would have applied to Bernie even more than Hillary, so I'm not so convinced the result would have been any different.

 

I do think it's time to make (respectful!) discussions about politics okay again in polite society and around the dinner table. Politics affect us, whether we like it or not. Besides, I've been hearing from all sides that this election was all about two large groups who don't listen to each other and have no idea what the others' world looks like. How will that ever change if we don't venture into the minefield of discussion?

 

Not denying that there are people (on every side) whom you simply cannot talk to in a rational manner, who will respond to every attempt at reaching out with insults, mockery and vitriol. But so far, I haven't seen any of those around here (and if I did, I would have few qualms about chasing them off).

It sounds like you might have grown up the way I did; politics was always an acceptable topic when I was younger, until I moved to this area. I was startled when I was told it was not a subject to be discussed in polite society. I think that's sad; I usually find there's common ground somewhere, if we're just willing to compare our views. But it can get rather, er, emotional. I can remember my dad and his brother going at it hammer and tongs. But they still got along great the rest of the time.

 

A lot of those who voted for Trump were poor and disenfranchised and desperately hoping he would help and would bring back jobs.

Interestingly, I've seen quite a few commentaries that are starting to dispute that. Some studies are showing that most of Trump's supporters were middle and upper-middle class. (Perhaps partly because, if I remember correctly, the truly poor are less likely to vote.) They weren't worried about their own jobs, but they were often worried there wouldn't be enough jobs for their children. Also apparently there's still a strong anti-abortion factor at work, and a belief that globalization threatens our economy and/or our sovereignty. These reports don't deny that the "angry white blue-collar worker" was a factor, but suggest there really wasn't enough of them to push Trump over the top. Either way, I'm certain there's plenty of books about the election in the works already, so Trump's already created some jobs. ;)

[Caya]

 

Or maybe he'll surprise us all, and will actually listen to his advisors.

 

What do you think we're so afraid of? ;)

 

Exactly. Trump himself is bad enough, but some among his team ...

 

 

(twitter source) (I'm definitely not linking to breitbart itself, don't go there if you value your sanity, you have been warned )

[Carol the Dabbler]

Y'know, Arcadia, this is starting to remind me of the stuff I was seeing when Obama was elected -- particularly regarding that vehemently anti-American preacher that he associated with.  And like I said, he hasn't turned out to be all that bad a president.  Not the person I'd have chosen for the office, obviously, but not too bad for a liberal.

 

I get the feeling that what most people are actually worried about is not that Trump is a scumbag (even though he is) but rather that his advisors are conservatives.  I don't like some of them (most particularly the theocrats) much better than you do, but I do try to bear in mind that I am (unfortunately!) not in charge.  ;)

 

Seriously, I think one of the most important of our governmental checks and balances (and yet one that's never mentioned in the civics textbooks) is that the wild-eyed conservatives can't do too much damage, because in just a few years they'll be out of office and the wild-eyed liberals will be in -- for a few years.  So things can't get too extreme in either direction.  Meaning of course that nobody's happy, but then again nobody's too unhappy either, which is probably about the best we can do in such a large and diverse country.

[J.P.]

White supremacists chant 'hail Trump' while performing Hitler salutes at alt-right conference  Alt-right leader Richard Spencer hails US election result as victory for 'our people'

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-president-elect-alt-right-white-supremacists-nazi-hitler-salutes-richard-b-spencer-a7431216.html

 

Maybe it's time to move the thread out of Speedy's? We are scaring away the customers.

[Fantasy Lover]

I agree

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe it's time to move the thread out of Speedy's? We are scaring away the customers.

 

I've been thinking the same thing for a while now.  (Quite frankly, some of y'all really are getting kinda scary.)  Regardless of whether it's on this thread or some specifically political thread, let's please try not to assume that everyone on here agrees with any particular agenda, or that any specific "ism" is the proper one, OK?  Discussion, fine -- diatribe, not so fine.

[J.P.]

We might call the thread some scary name.

Like Baskerville's minefield. Or Dever's Hollow.

 

What I would like to know is why people think Trump will make America great.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Because he said he would, I guess, and nobody else has said that for an awful long time.  Maybe he's the nostalgia condidate.

[besleybean]

That is of course assuming it was great before.

I'm not saying it wasn't, just following the logic...you understand.

[Fantasy Lover]

Because he said he would, I guess, and nobody else has said that for an awful long time. Maybe he's the nostalgia condidate.

Because he said he would make America great again people VOTED for him???!!! What the HELL??? That is incredibly stupid, I can't believe they are believing him in the first place

[besleybean]

I am constantly amazed that people will just believe what they are told, without any evidence being offered whatsoever.

Well actually I'm not surprised at all, I kind of expect it of some humans now.

But I've been there and bought the tee shirt, and I certainly won't be fooled again.

Though it's a bit like those who loudly express their opinions on things they no absolutely nothing about.  

Having a view does not make you an expert!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I seriously doubt it was just that.  Those people were also very unhappy with "the other" candidate.

 

Just because somebody tells you they voted for so-and-so "because of this," doesn't mean that's the only reason, though it may have been the deciding factor, or the the thing they like best.  I mean, why do *you* vote for certain candidates?  I doubt that it's just because of their slogan or their stand on one particular issue, but if somebody asked you, especially some stranger doing an exit poll, you might give an over-simplified answer, just so you could get on with your day.

[besleybean]

Well I wouldn't.

But yes, I accept that many people might do that.

[Arcadia]

We might call the thread some scary name.

Like Baskerville's minefield. Or Dever's Hollow.

 

What I would like to know is why people think Trump will make America great.

 

What I'd like to know is what they think "great" looks like. Well ... maybe I don't. I suspect it would depress me.

 

I'm not concerned about his advisors being conservatives ... Mitt Romney's a conservative, and I'm not alarmed by him. I'm concerned about his advisors advocating torture, seeking "closer ties" with Russia, cutting ties with our allies, turning our public parks into oilfields, denigrating non-whites and women ... you get the idea. Are those conservative principles now? They weren't before the election. Well, maybe the oilfields thing was.