The Political Thread

[Carol the Dabbler]

I do understand your concerns. My hope and expectation is that Congress won't let him get away with such foolishness. And if they don't rein him in, a lot of us will be voting for Democrats next time.

[J.P.]

Ahem... just a gentle reminder that we are deep, deep into a minefield right now - discussion-wise.

[besleybean]

We are and I've even been holding back!

 

[T.o.b.y]

I do understand your concerns. My hope and expectation is that Congress won't let him get away with such foolishness. And if they don't rein him in, a lot of us will be voting for Democrats next time.

 

I'd like to literally translate a German saying here, Carol: "your word in god's ear" (meaning: I fervently hope you are right).

 

At least the USA is a very old and until now very stable democracy. Germany in the '30s was destabilized by recent war and inflation and had been a monarchy before (and hadn't been a nation until the 1970s, for that matter). Also, the US is huge. Okay, Russia is huge too and still Stalin managed to rule the whole of it, but I still imagine it would be harder to get all of the USA to fall in line, especially since the individual states can decide a lot of matters for themselves.

 

I'll hope for the best. Still, I have been taught to at the same time always prepare for the worst and in this case, I have absolutely no clue how to go about that. Except stay awake, follow the news closely and not tolerate any hate in my immediate surroundings. Oh, also of course go vote at home and tell everybody who will listen to go vote as well. Go vote! Everybody, the next chance you get, go vote! Please?

[T.o.b.y]

Ahem... just a gentle reminder that we are deep, deep into a minefield right now - discussion-wise.

 

Yup - and I am so far surprised and touched that nothing has blown up yet. to all. 

 

I do think it's time to make (respectful!) discussions about politics okay again in polite society and around the dinner table. Politics affect us, whether we like it or not. Besides, I've been hearing from all sides that this election was all about two large groups who don't listen to each other and have no idea what the others' world looks like. How will that ever change if we don't venture into the minefield of discussion?

 

Not denying that there are people (on every side) whom you simply cannot talk to in a rational manner, who will respond to every attempt at reaching out with insults, mockery and vitriol. But so far, I haven't seen any of those around here (and if I did, I would have few qualms about chasing them off).

[besleybean]

[J.P.]

[Pseudonym]

Other than being worried it all just makes me so sad :(

[Carol the Dabbler]

Kids are just naturally clueless and (literally) thoughtless. I remember a technician at work telling our young Jewish secretary that when his high school had a ball game against a school from a Jewish neighborhood, they'd chant "Turn on the gas!" I was horrified, but the Jewish girl (who was barely out of high school herself) claimed to find it humorous, or at least inoffensive, and the two of them were on friendly terms.

 

My point being, I seriously doubt that the technician was a closet Nazi. He was simply young enough to think of WWII as ancient history, about as relevant to his life as Caesar's Rome.

 

Not to say that principal's story isn't disturbing, just that those chanting kids may have had no idea what they were talking about.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I was surprised with my own level of frustation with the election result.

Hardly ever care about politic, let alone other country's, I also don't have relative or very close friends staying in US to worry about.

 

So I tried to ponder about why it frustates me, maybe because I had seen the kind of impact of people like Trump can have, in person and devastating way, and it's not good. It's terrifying for me.

 

The way I see it, he himself is, maybe, relatively quite harmless, again, relatively.

 

But he is going to be used as very destructive tool.

 

People could his ideology to get their agendas, these people may or may not share the same mindset as him, they just want him as a tool.

It doesn't matter, they could make use of his words and his view to inflict hate, fear, create cracks, dividers and justifications now that he is a powerful man.

 

I am moderately sure that once he takes office, or even now, he would realize most of the things he promises are not easy or realistic to deliver. It's human nature in every way, we can always criticize other people's works until we really step on it and start to understand that it's probably not as straightforward as it seems.

While that is a relief, it's still a weapon, or even more powerful weapon.

 

It could always be used as excuses to provoke others to do what he promises in his name, taking power with their own hands.

 

To cut story short, what depresses me the most, is him being the perfect weapon and tool for these mastermind to stir their agendas.

It is quite proven that he is not someone who can control or think properly before he acts. It is way too easy to provoke him or stir him to certain direction (watching the debate I was thinking he must be a very easy opponent to take down because to me it's almost transparent about what he was about to say and how he would react. With moderate strategy it seems very easy to just throw the right baits and he would self destruct).

These masterminds could create chaos and sit back to enjoy the result without making their hands dirty, undetected and safe at their home.

 

Had seen similar thing unfold, family victimized and lives destroyed, the most, most intriguing things to me is, not many people (victims and pawns) understand and see through the real baddies. They don't even aware that they have been used. And when hate takes control, victim can turn into baddies as well.

 

With his take, his view and his ideology, he would become an almost perfect weapon that can be ignited anytime, literally.

The same reason why original and modern John Watson is still fighting for war.

Because human are mostly too dumb to learn from past history, or ongoing affairs around the world.

It's almost textbook.

 

On the freaking 'lighter' scale, people now think it's okay to do and say what he does. I also read last week that white supremacist flyers start circulating around.

 

What drives me nutter, it's all so preventable, yet these two were the final candidates. All those job interviews that require candidates to have significant experiences can probably shut up down. Heck, experience is not even required to be president.

[Pseudonym]

Not to say that principal's story isn't disturbing, just that those chanting kids may have had no idea what they were talking about.

 

The fact they felt that was okay though, that very little was done about it, and they fell into a mob mentality like that shows the effect rhetoric can have in society. I bet if most of those chanting were asked individually they wouldn't have said they were racist, but with the president elect spewing those sentiments kids think it's okay to get swept up in it. Seems like in that class, on that day, racism suddenly was not only okay but 'cool.' How terrifying must it have been to be a hispanic kid in that class suddenly faced with a gang of your flatmates practically going feral?

 

I was surprised with my own level of frustation with the election result.

Hardly ever care about politic, let alone other country's, I also don't have relative or very close friends staying in US to worry about.

 

So I tried to ponder about why it frustates me, maybe because I had seen the kind of impact of people like Trump can have, in person and devastating way, and it's not good. It's terrifying for me.

 

Ditto. I'm normally very disinterested in politics, though I am interested in extreme politics and documentaries that show the effect policies have on actual working people. A lot of those who voted for Trump were poor and disenfranchised and desperately hoping he would help and would bring back jobs. He won't of course, and he also doesn't give a sh*t about the normal working person nor can he actually understand them - hopefully when they realise he can't and won't help they will turn their back on him.

 

I think people who are gunning for positions in government should be forced to do work experience of sorts in a number of different locales and with a variety of socio-economic groups - not just be shown around and only given the glossed over version by advisors. This applies to all countries, but how can someone who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth ever understand someone who can barely make enough money to eat? We aren't supposed to have a ruling class in a democracy, but we definitely do. 

[J.P.]

 

but with the president elect spewing those sentiments kids think it's okay to get swept up in it.

This.

And there surely were kids that didn't want to chant, but were too scared not to. <- applies to adults as well.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Or to most of them it was just a game. Somebody started chanting and the rest just automatically joined in, as though they were singing "Row, row, row your boat."

 

I wasn't there, so I really can't gauge to what extent it was a game with no particular emotion behind it, or to what extent the kids had formed a hate-filled mob.

 

Either way is worrisome of course, but the latter would be far more so than the former.

[Arcadia]

Wow. So much here to talk about.

I've been largely silent on this thread lately because I have been so, so deeply hurt and angry by the election results that I literally couldn't be civil when discussing the subject at hand. But venting with a number of friends (hi, friends!) has helped relieve some of the pressure.

It's odd, but knowing that people from other countries actually care about what happened here makes me feel better. I find myself hoping this is something that Mr. Trump is capable of learning; what goes on here really IS the rest of the world's business. We have been telling the world -- at least since I've been alive -- how great we are; how fair, how free, how inclusive .... and imo the rest of the world has a right to hold us to our stated ideals. Even if it means calling us all racists when our elected leader, and the people who voted for him, say or do racist things. Even if it's our children doing them. It really does take a village to raise a child, after all.

Will Mr. Trump modify his stance once in office? I have no way of knowing ... he contradicts himself daily, has NO history as a politician, and I can only go by his past words and past behavior. He did not come out of nowhere, we've known what he is like for years. He had a chance to modify his behavior several times during the election, and didn't do it. So I think he owns every word he said at this point. Do we owe him the chance to prove he is a better man than he has ever, in his entire life, appeared to be? Owe it, no. Grant it .... for a little while. About as long as the Republicans gave Obama a chance, which was ... oh, that's right, they didn't. Nevertheless, I will do as my current president asks, and wait and see. Alas, I know of nothing else, constructively, that can be done at this point.

 

On another note ... Ms. Clinton is a criminal only if you believe it's okay to try and convict someone in the court of public opinion. She has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law, nor even officially accused of anything except poor judgement. She was under investigation, but being under investigation does not automatically a criminal make. As Mr. Trump should know, having been there himself.

 

Gotta run, hope I didn't get too hot. But I'm very, very disturbed by what's going on and wanted to show my solidarity with those who feel likewise. Stay strong, my friends. Be vigilant. Hold us accountable. But be kind, we're more delicate than we pretend to be.

[Fantasy Lover]

 

What drives me nutter, it's all so preventable, yet these two were the final candidates. All those job interviews that require candidates to have significant experiences can probably shut up down. Heck, experience is not even required to be president.

You should have known that ever since that actor became president

[besleybean]

I would love certain actors as my president...

Then again, I would just love a president

 

#f--kthemonarchy

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

I would love certain actors as my president...

Then again, I would just love a president

 

#f--kthemonarchy

Except Trump

[besleybean]

Well yeah, but unfortunately that's the price of democracy.

Thing is the U.S needs to stop the 2 term limit and also change the the electoral college system.

But hey: at least you get a  vote!

[J.P.]

…yet.

[besleybean]

Well, the system isn't perfect, it needs tightening up...but representative democracy is the best we have.

This can also include making voter registration easier, educating your electorate etc.

[Fantasy Lover]

Well yeah, but unfortunately that's the price of democracy.

Thing is the U.S needs to stop the 2 term limit and also change the the electoral college system.

But hey: at least you get a vote!

I think it's better that you have more than two options

[besleybean]

Two options is better than absolutely NO option!

#f--kthemonarchy

[Fantasy Lover]

Two options is better than absolutely NO option!

#f--kthemonarchy

I agree with your hatred of the monarchy, what a bunch of lousy, tax wasting, breeding rabbits!

[T.o.b.y]

Just curious: What is so bad about the British monarchy in your eyes? They don't still hold any real political power, do they? I always thought it was rather quaint, still having a king or queen and a royal family, but it seemed harmless to me...

[besleybean]

Mainly because we don't get to elect our head of state.

But I also don't like the fact the Monarch is the head of an established church.