Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[Janyss]

Well done! I always fall in that kind of traps lol!...

Anyway, if there is another season, I don't want the two brothers to fall in each other's arms just because of all this. I'd like them to have a good argument, and then starting with other points of rivalries that would keep the old wounds wide open...oh, how bad am I for our boys!

[Artemis]

I must admit I completely bought the "kill him, he has absolutely no interest" thing. I think Mycroft's reactions during the governor's scene, even if a little out of characters, was aimed at preparing us to fall in this trap. Mark Gatiss' acting added to the efficiency...

 

At the risk of sounding smug... Not me!  I knew immediately what Mycroft was doing.  My dogs were a little worried, but I assured them that he was just saying those things to make it easier for Sherlock to kill him, and that it probably wasn't going to work.

 

As for Mycroft trying to get himself shot - geez, imagine you want your brother to kill you so you make him hate you. He was about to sacrifice everything, even the hope Sherlock might one day understand and forgive (not to mention learn to love) him. This is just

Indeed.  </3  How can anyone hate Mycroft.  For all his faults, he loves his bro to death (literally).

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

Hmm... You know, I wouldn't put it past the Holmes brothers to have subtly agreed to that little exchange, to catch Eurus by surprise more effectively when Sherlock points the gun at himself.

 

We know from Reichenbach that in true crisis situations, they do work together, secretly and efficiently.

[Janyss]

Yes, the two brothers worked together against Moriarty, and Sherlock sometimes doesn't mind a little help from dear big brother, admitting that may be they are "in the same side", even if he disapproves of his political compromises...But I don't know if in TFP, under the circumstances, they could plan something.

 

Yes, the scene is heartbreaking. And the heart as a very small target sounds like Mycroft's statement about his life and regrets. His sacrifice (as JP said, not only of life) is like a search for a redemption about the consequences all the heavy choices he had to make. I agree again here with JP: we need this kind of people in real life, specifically in times of wars or crises.

 

And that is why many viewers hate Mycroft: they don't like -specifically in a TV show-to be reminded that the limits between good and evil are not that clear, they don't like to see that even for good political actions, we need people who search for power (and who must be strictly controlled by the democratic institutions, or they become blind). On the contrary, all that is exactly why I love the character. And that is what brought me to a parallel with Chamberlain, who loved the idea of entering history as the saviour of peace, the one who could have avoided the crush of a new war to his people, and thus didn't listen to the voices who warned him about his heavy concessions to Hitler).

[T.o.b.y]

That's not the reason in my case though. Not that I hate Mycroft anyway, that's too strong a word, but I dislike him and certainly not because of any moral ambiguity. I love morally grey characters and in general, I want more of them.

 

I dislike Mycroft simply because his manner grates on me. He is too smug, too overbearing, too condescending. He brings out the rebellious teen in me just like he does in Sherlock.

 

I don't think he and Sherlock had a plan or plans à la "thirteen different scenarios once we're at Sherrinford". But I think it's possible that as they were talking about who shoots whom, it was clear to both of them that neither brother expected anybody to actually be shot. That they were finally turning the tables and manipulating Eurus.

 

Their "secret weapon" against Moriarty was always that they never let on how they are actually a pretty good team when necessary. And Moriarty helped Eurus set the situation up. I think he certainly expected Sherlock to kill Mycroft but I have my doubts as to whether Mycroft did. Maybe he just kept talking to stall for time while Sherlock figured out how to defuse the situation without killing anybody.

 

And may I say that the solution was painfully obvious to me. I was waiting for Sherlock to point the gun at himself since he got it. It was clear that Eurus wanted him alive, that she cared about him in some weird way and wanted to go on playing with him. She had plenty of opportunities to kill him but didn't. His own life was the only kind of leverage he had against her. I was glad when he finally used it.

 

Btw, I don't think Mycroft's behavior when he or John are being asked to shoot the governor is inconsistent with his character or the way he handles the situation later during Eurus "game". At the beginning, he was still shocked, taken by surprise. Clearly he had not anticipated that she had taken over the place. By the time Sherlock is asked to kill John or himself, he has had time to adjust to the situation, think things through and respond in his usual calm, collected manner.

[Artemis]

And may I say that the solution was painfully obvious to me. I was waiting for Sherlock to point the gun at himself since he got it. It was clear that Eurus wanted him alive, that she cared about him in some weird way and wanted to go on playing with him. She had plenty of opportunities to kill him but didn't. His own life was the only kind of leverage he had against her. I was glad when he finally used it.

 

^ My thoughts exactly.

[Arcadia]

Mine too. We are all too smart for our own good, apparently. :P

 

I like Toby's idea that the three of them went in there with some sort of plan other than disguising Sherlock as a guard, but I don't see much evidence of it ... they were all too shocked that Eurus was in control of the place. I'm not sure what they expected, as obviously she was able to leave. And they knew someone was compromised, or they wouldn't have bothered to sneak in. But for some reason they didn't expect her to be in charge. (Well, neither did I, but I'm not a genius.) At any rate, it was much more my impression that they were winging it the whole time. Seems rather reckless when going up against an "era-defining genius", but they all survived, so I guess they knew what they were doing....  <_<

[Janyss]

Well, sure the three don't expect to have good time in Sherrinford...But Mycroft can't believe his sister has been able to go out (or do you think he's changed his mind after the talk with Sherlock and the bomb? I'm not sure, as he seems very surprised when he realises Euros controls the governor's mind). They don't expect to find the same things. Sherlock and John may be more prepared to the worst...But Mycroft remains so blind (see the numerous moments when MG closes his eyes to convey this) and gets stuck in so many lies (until the end about Redbeard) that I think it is impossible for him to be rational in this case. He's overwhelmed by the force he tried to control, while Sherlock can cope a little more.

[J.P.]

If Myc knew how bad it is, he would never let Sherlock meet Eurus alone.

[Janyss]

About this... Don't you think Mycroft has been suspecting something for a while (even though not measuring the spread of it as he trusts the governor and Sherrinford very much, and as he's depicted as blind about Euros)? During the opening interview in ep 1, when Sherlock considers a post-death revenge from Moriarty, it seems Big Brother realises a little what could have happened with our "good old-fashioned villain"...I thought of it owing to the way Mycroft is filmed, something on his face (not a word, of course, MG's doing) The writers bring viewers' attention on the argument between the brothers, on a fed-up Lady S., but that may have been a smokescreen...

[Arcadia]

Well, sure the three don't expect to have good time in Sherrinford...But Mycroft can't believe his sister has been able to go out (or do you think he's changed his mind after the talk with Sherlock and the bomb? I'm not sure, as he seems very surprised when he realises Euros controls the governor's mind). They don't expect to find the same things. Sherlock and John may be more prepared to the worst...But Mycroft remains so blind (see the numerous moments when MG closes his eyes to convey this) and gets stuck in so many lies (until the end about Redbeard) that I think it is impossible for him to be rational in this case. He's overwhelmed by the force he tried to control, while Sherlock can cope a little more.

 

 

If Myc knew how bad it is, he would never let Sherlock meet Eurus alone.

 

Well, those are all excellent points that I hadn't quite considered. So that would explain why Mycroft, at least, seemed ill-prepared for their encounter with Eurus; he didn't quite believe it was really her John had encountered? It still seems like they were terribly reckless, though. But maybe Mycroft wasn't given much say in the matter, and Sherlock would probably underestimate Eurus anyway, until he actually met her. Okay, so maybe they weren't being quite as reckless as I first thought ....

 

About this... Don't you think Mycroft has been suspecting something for a while (even though not measuring the spread of it as he trusts the governor and Sherrinford very much, and as he's depicted as blind about Euros)? During the opening interview in ep 1, when Sherlock considers a post-death revenge from Moriarty, it seems Big Brother realises a little what could have happened with our "good old-fashioned villain"...I thought of it owing to the way Mycroft is filmed, something on his face (not a word, of course, MG's doing) The writers bring viewers' attention on the argument between the brothers, on a fed-up Lady S., but that may have been a smokescreen...

 

I don't remember noticing anything like that, but it could be.  But I really think Mycroft was meant to be blind, as you say, to the danger, because he was so certain that he had everything under control as usual. I think a lot of this story was about learning that Mycroft is not as perfect as he seems to be. He's only human, too, just like Sherlock.

[Artemis]

I think a lot of this story was about learning that Mycroft is not as perfect as he seems to be. He's only human, too, just like Sherlock.

 

In a way I feel like this was much more Mycroft's episode than Sherlock's.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

It's certainly the first episode that made me empathize with Mycroft. Mostly because I saw him as a teenager. That humanized him for me a lot.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing Artemis said as I typed my remark. But then, Mycroft was the client. Albeit an unwilling one. But I note that when it came time to "solve the problem", he was written out. Too many geniuses in the room already. :smile:

 

Poor Mycroft. On the one hand I want to strangle him for being such an insufferable and unfeeling control freak, and on the other I feel sorry for him because everyone's so nasty to him in this episode. Only Sherlock, his "arch enemy", takes a bit of pity on him in the end. That's a nice bit of scripting, I think.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hmm, so you're saying that TFP not only confirms that Sherlock and John are reconciled, it also goes a long way toward mending the rift between Sherlock and Mycroft? I think you're right.

 

Looks to me like Sherlock realizes that Mycroft isn't necessarily the pompous ass he pretends to be -- he may actually be so unsure of himself that he doesn't dare admit it, lest he lose all control in his job.

[Artemis]

Looks to me like Sherlock realizes that Mycroft isn't necessarily the pompous ass he pretends to be

 

Mrs. Hudson: "He thinks you're clever.  Poor old Sherlock, always going on about you.  He has no idea what an idiot you are!"

 

Foreshadowing?  :P

 

 

[J.P.]

Looks to me like Sherlock realizes that Mycroft isn't necessarily the pompous ass he pretends to be -- he may actually be so unsure of himself that he doesn't dare admit it, lest he lose all control in his job.

Which is, actually, the same what Sherlock was doing. Pretending to be an ass to keep people away.

[Arcadia]

Pretending? Or actually being one? :d Either way, it worked, until John came along.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sherlock was never a *pompous* ass, though -- more of a puerile jerk.

[Janyss]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing Artemis said as I typed my remark. But then, Mycroft was the client. Albeit an unwilling one. But I note that when it came time to "solve the problem", he was written out. Too many geniuses in the room already. :smile:

 

Poor Mycroft. On the one hand I want to strangle him for being such an insufferable and unfeeling control freak, and on the other I feel sorry for him because everyone's so nasty to him in this episode. Only Sherlock, his "arch enemy", takes a bit of pity on him in the end. That's a nice bit of scripting, I think.

There was not enough time left in the episode to deal more with Mycroft, anyway. The writers had to draw the parallel between John and Victor, end with Euros...But they took the time to confront him with his parents, as obviously, Sherlock wouldn't have accepted to become the accomplice of Mycroft's lies about the family. Sherlock has aknowledged Mycroft had to make difficult choices, but as the one who finds the truth, he doesn't want to bear the weight of these lies (and yet, our favourite detective is so manipulative sometimes!).

 

Yes, poor Mycroft, who tried to act for the greater good and thus made wrong choices. In the end, he's like a character of a Greek tragedy, sentenced to be followed by deamons all the way long. after trying to jail them. And even if we can understand, the other characters are quite nasty, I agree... Mrs Hudson in the previous episode, Mummy Holmes...the price he has to pay is heavy. Fortunately it contrasts well with Sherlock's words (and with lady Smallwood's thing, which may be was just aimed at reminding us that even this ambiguous character deserved love).

[Boton]

How much of Mycroft's life has really been his own at this point? Is he projecting when he told Sherlock that everything he [sherlock] was was due to Eurus? Is that really Mycroft's assessment of himself?

 

Here's a young boy who saw his entire family ripped apart: his sister commits murder, his brother loses it enough to repress memories and substitute new ones, and his parents may well have been mired in grief and worry. And then you have Uncle Rudy coming along and incarcerating Eurus and sooner or later telling Mycroft what happened and enlisting his help in keeping the secret.  Who knows what Mycroft would have liked his life to have been without these burdens?

[Arcadia]

Sherlock was never a *pompous* ass, though -- more of a puerile jerk.

 

Oh, I'm sure he'll feel so much better for knowing that! :lol5:

 

There was not enough time left in the episode to deal more with Mycroft, anyway.

There wasn't enough time for anything! This should have been two episodes, or one longer one, or something. So many ideas and emotions to cram into one story.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing an entire episode focused on Mycroft (or John, or Lestrade, or Molly...) but with so few of them, I find I'm jealous of any time spent away from Sherlock. I rather enjoyed Mary's little travelogue in T6T, for example, except I got impatient waiting for Sherlock to appear again. Everything just becomes that much more interesting when he's around....

[Janyss]

OMG, "I want to break free" on my radio! I can't help seeing John turning down, the ballet of a hélicopter, and Moriarty getting out! Damn Mofftiss!

[Arcadia]

Yes, I don't think that song will ever mean anything else to Sherlockians! :D

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've moved the Harry Potter / Sherlock comparison to the Harry Potter thread (here).  T.o.b.y made a valiant last-minute effort to bring us back on-topic
 

How do we get back to The Final Problem now? Um... I bet Eurus doesn't like Harry Potter either. I wonder what she does like.

Btw, I liked child Eurus on the plane. When I saw the first scene, I thought right away, I bet this is her as a kid. I thought it was a flashback.

 

And I have another question:  What would you think of the epilog if it had exactly the same video footage and exactly the same narration -- except that instead of Mary, it was spoken by Mrs. Hudson?  I'm thinking that "my Baker Street boys" would sound more natural coming from her.