The Language (and travel) Thread

[T.o.b.y]

The main lure for me is imagining a place where everybody talks with your wonderful accent. Don't laugh, but when I encounter British tourists here, I follow them around and listen to them as long as I can. For some, I imagine it's just wanting to go places where they know the language at all.

 

Then, I think a lot of people just like the idea of visiting the country where their favorite TV and / or literature came from.

 

As for Ireland and Scotland, judging from other people's holiday photos, the landscape must be very beautiful.

 

Now, what I cannot understand is why people would want to visit Germany. When I see foreign tourists here, I mostly wonder whether they got lost. I mean, I like it here, it's a good place to live and work, but there is just nothing remarkable about it at all.

 

 

[Liselle]

Hahaha; I've heard so many non-Brits tell me how much they love the British accent, but I think what they're really referring to is a specific type of British accent; very much a Benedict Cumberbatch accent. There are so many different accents in the UK, and I refuse to believe that all of them are pleasing to the ear of a non-Brit. Some of them are quite harsh after all.

I suppose you're right about visiting the country of your favourite TV show or literature; my friends and I feel the same way about Finland, because so many of our favourite bands are from there. It's been a dream of ours for so long to go there and see some of the wonderful things we've heard about it through the bands we like.

I've never been to Ireland, but I've been to Scotland quite a lot and visited quite a few of its cities, and I have to say it's absolutely beautiful; I've never been to one place I didn't like. I think it's the real feeling of wilderness that I love about it; it's the kind of place that makes you want to run through the forests and dance on the mountain-tops... or maybe that's just me...

I'm ashamed to say I don't know nearly enough about Germany as a country as I should do; I have a few friends who live in Berlin though and they really love it

[T.o.b.y]

Oh, Berlin is special, that's true. But it's still a large city with all the noise and ugliness that goes along with that. There's really not much to know about Germany, in my opinion, it's boring, grey, safe, functional. I consider myself very privileged to live here, I just don't understand why anybody would consider it a place for tourism.

 

Concerning the different British accents: I only know them from watching TV of course, where I'm sure they're often exaggerated, but I've never heard one I didn't take to. Harsh is no problem... By contrast, I detest most of the German dialects, except for the northern one around where I live, that's rather nice.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've heard so many non-Brits tell me how much they love the British accent, but I think what they're really referring to is a specific type of British accent; very much a Benedict Cumberbatch accent. There are so many different accents in the UK, and I refuse to believe that all of them are pleasing to the ear of a non-Brit.

 

Well, for one thing, we can't always tell the difference (any more than, apparently, a typical British person can tell the difference between a New York accent and a Chicago accent).  I suspect that most Americans (including myself to some extent) can distinguish only five British-Isles accents:

 

1.  "English" -- meaning the stereotypical snobbish-butler accent from the movies

 

2.  Cockney

 

3.  "Beatles" -- AKA a Liverpool accent

 

4.  "Scottish" -- we do not distinguish between Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc.

 

5.  "Irish" -- the stereotypical "faith and begorrah" accent (Andrew Scott does not sound at all "Irish" -- or even particularly foreign -- to me)

 

Anything else would be described as "sort of English" or whatever.  To me, the northern-English accents sound "sort of Scottish."

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

The lure of the British Isles for me is my ancestry. I have Scots bloodlines on both my mom and dad's sides of the family. I would really like to see where my people came from. I also, maybe, have some Welsh thrown in if some of the surnames are any proof. And of course London and not just for it's Sherlock fame though that is a big draw. I want to see Big Ben and the London Eye. I also want to walk Dartmoor.

[Liselle]

 

Concerning the different British accents: I only know them from watching TV of course, where I'm sure they're often exaggerated

 

Yeah; non-British programmes do tend to exaggerate British accents, especially American ones, I've found.

 

 

Well, for one thing, we can't always tell the difference (any more than, apparently, a typical British person can tell the difference between a New York accent and a Chicago accent). 

 

I guess you have a point there, Carol; although I do think I can tell a New York accent when I hear one. But I wouldn't know a Chicago accent.

 

I suspect that most Americans (including myself to some extent) can distinguish only five British-Isles accents:

 

1. "English" -- meaning the stereotypical snobbish-butler accent from the movies

 

2. Cockney

 

3. "Beatles" -- AKA a Liverpool accent

 

4. "Scottish" -- we do not distinguish between Edinburgh, Glasgow, etc.

 

5. "Irish" -- the stereotypical "faith and begorrah" accent (Andrew Scott does not sound at all "Irish" -- or even particularly foreign -- to me)

 

Anything else would be described as "sort of English" or whatever. To me, the northern-English accents sound "sort of Scottish."

 

Really? It surprises me if that's true; I'd have thought Americans would recognise a Geordie or Brummie accent, at least. Or maybe Bristolian? The not distinguishing between Scottish accents actually extends to the rest of the UK as well, I would say; I doubt most English people could tell the difference between an Edinburgh and Dundee accent, for example. I certainly couldn't And Andrew Scott... well, at first I didn't realise he was Irish, but I could tell he had a certain twang to his accent that made it not English, and now I can definitely hear an Irish lilt to his voice.

 

As a matter of interest, would you recognise a Welsh accent?

[T.o.b.y]

Yeah; non-British programmes do tend to exaggerate British accents, especially American ones, I've found.

 

I was thinking more of Britcoms (do the British actually call them that, too?), where I assume the different accents are exaggerated for comic effect.

 

I'm impressed with Carol being able to name so may different nuances of British English. I do notice it when one character has a different accent than another, but I certainly can't place them.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

As a matter of interest, would you recognise a Welsh accent?

 

Oddly enough, no, even though I've spent a couple of weeks in northern Wales (Alex has relatives there, but they're from Liverpool).  If I heard a Welsh accent, I might think it sounded familiar, but I doubt that I'd be able to name it.  (I've also heard the Welsh language spoken, by the way, by fellow passengers on the train.)

 

I'm impressed with Carol being able to name so may different nuances of British English. I do notice it when one character has a different accent than another, but I certainly can't place them.

 

I'm generally like that myself.  For example, when we watched Jeremy Brett's "Hound of the Baskervilles," I noticed that one character had the same accent as Fletcher (the tour guide) from "Hounds" -- so I would assume that's a Dartmoor accent.  I can't offhand recall how it sounds, though; couldn't mimic it or even play it back in my head.

 

[Liselle]

 

I was thinking more of Britcoms (do the British actually call them that, too?), where I assume the different accents are exaggerated for comic effect.

 

Whilst I think I've heard the term 'Britcoms', I think it's a term used by non-Brits. I've never heard it used here. And I kind of understand what you mean about them being exaggerated, but I can't really think of any examples; I guess it doesn't seem exaggerated to me, just that the show's based in a particular place so all the characters have that area's accent.

 

 

Oddly enough, no, even though I've spent a couple of weeks in northern Wales (Alex has relatives there, but they're from Liverpool).

Ooooo, whereabouts in northern Wales have you been to? I used to live in Chester whilst I was at university, which is just above the northern Welsh border, so I visited a couple of places in northern Wales whilst I was there, like Colwyn Bay and Rhyl.

 

 

 If I heard a Welsh accent, I might think it sounded familiar, but I doubt that I'd be able to name it

 

 

Same here; I'd know a Welsh accent when I heard it, but I couldn't tell you whereabouts in Wales it was from.

 

 

(I've also heard the Welsh language spoken, by the way, by fellow passengers on the train.)

 

Really? Wow; you don't really think about Welsh being heard in America; it's quite a rarity to hear it even in England (unless you live close to the border). As far as I know it's even becoming a lot less common in Wales as well; most Welsh people don't know any Welsh, from what I know. I love the sound of the Welsh language though; sometimes it sounds so lyrical and soft, and then other times it just goes crazy

 

For example, when we watched Jeremy Brett's "Hound of the Baskervilles," I noticed that one character had the same accent as Fletcher (the tour guide) from "Hounds" -- so I would assume that's a Dartmoor accent.

Yes, that accent is known as a West Country accent; it's mostly associated with Cornwall, Devon and Somerset. It's one of our more recognisable accents, I'd say

[Liselle]

http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects

This site is brilliant; you can pick pretty much any county in Britain and hear audio clips of people from that region speaking, so you can hear the accents  

[aely]

 

 

most Welsh people don't know any Welsh, from what I know

 

Actually depends on where you come from, and possibly how old you are. I think learning Welsh is compulsory in Welsh schools now but wasn't oooh say 30 years ago ish from what I remember.

 

If you're from the 'heartland' of North Wales - Gwynedd, Anglesey and Conwy - you're more likely to be a native Welsh speaker. I have friends from the Llŷn Peninsula (the bit that sticks out at the top of Wales, near Anglesey) and Snowdonia, who didn't learn how to speak English until they went to school. Likewise, if you're from one of the more traditional 'Valleys' in South Wales you might be more likely to speak Welsh, though in those areas it is no longer so common thanks to the decimation of the communities by the closure of the mines and economic collapse. In the big cities of the south I don't think it has ever been common to be a Welsh speaker.

 

Also, the northern and southern Welsh accents are noticeably different - but you can only really tell if you're familiar with Welsh accents in the first place, same as it's only possible to tell the difference between the northern and southern Liverpool accents. As a big chunk of the Liverpool accent is from Irish and Welsh, I think us Scousers are pretty good at being able to differentiate regional Irish, Welsh and, to a lesser extent, Scottish accents.

 

A lot of being able to recognise accents is familiarity, and having a good ear. Not many people who don't come from Cumbria (the English Lake District) can recognise a Cumbrian accent for instance, but because I used to spend time there every year on holiday in quite rural areas surrounded by people with strong accents, I find it quite easy - I am able to tell the difference between some of the regional variations too. Helps that my parents live there now!

 

I've also never had a problem being able to tell the difference between an Australian accent and a New Zealand accent, which I understand can be difficult for some people. I couldn't tell you the difference, but I recognise it when I hear it.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Ooooo, whereabouts in northern Wales have you been to? I used to live in Chester whilst I was at university, which is just above the northern Welsh border, so I visited a couple of places in northern Wales whilst I was there, like Colwyn Bay and Rhyl.

 

That's the area, all right!  We spent a day in Chester and walked around the top of the town wall.  Lovely place!  (Though on our first trip, we missed the last train back and spent the night in the station -- not the most scenic part of town.)  We've mostly spent time in Colwyn Bay.  And I can still hear the automated train lady saying "Rhyl."

 

(I've also heard the Welsh language spoken, by the way, by fellow passengers on the train.)

 

Really? Wow; you don't really think about Welsh being heard in America; it's quite a rarity to hear it even in England (unless you live close to the border). As far as I know it's even becoming a lot less common in Wales as well; most Welsh people don't know any Welsh, from what I know. I love the sound of the Welsh language though; sometimes it sounds so lyrical and soft, and then other times it just goes crazy

 

Sorry -- I should have mentioned that the train was in Wales.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

There is a guy I know in Alabama, US who speaks Welsh and also types it on his key board. He gets some comments back in Welsh to those posts so people are learning it here in America as well. When the Elves of The Lord of the Rings speak they are speaking a form of Welsh as that is the language Tolkien used as the root of his Elven Sindarin.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've heard both Welsh and Elvish, but never made that connection -- Thanks, Fox!

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

When I was a bigger Tolkienian, I actually was learning Sindarin but have pretty much given it up because I just don't have the time with all the writing I am doing now. But I still have the dictionary.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Cool!  If I ever need anything translated, I'll know who to ask! 

 

Here's something else I've been wondering about -- does Tolkien ever give any hints as to what the "common tongue" is like?  I know he says that the proper names have been sort of translated into English, so as to give us a hint of their "flavor" in the original language.  And, as you clearly know, he gives us all sorts of info about many of the other languages in Middle Earth.  But I've never come across any information about the common tongue.  Have I simply missed it?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

The common language spoken by Hobbits and men was Westron.

[Carol the Dabbler]

OK, thanks.  Does he describe Westron at all?  Does he give any idea what "real world" language it might resemble?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Westron was a left over of Adunaic the language that came to Middle Earth from the High Kings of Numenor.

[Carol the Dabbler]

So what does it sound like?  What (real world) language family might it belong to?  Does Tolkien give any actual samples of it?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Tolkien seemed to have used Semitic for the formation of Adunaic. That would be the same root for Hebrew, Aramaic, Assyrian, and Arabic of the Middle East.

[Caya]

I (very vaguely) remember him discussing the language somewhere, such as that translation of names you mentioned, Carol - Frodo's and Bilbo's names being Froda and Bilba respecitvely because a was a male ending in their tongue, and so on. Can't for the life of me remember where I read that, though (my Tolkien scholar days are long gone, sadly) - maybe in the appendices.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Frodo's and Bilbo's names being Froda and Bilba respecitvely because a was a male ending in their tongue, and so on.

 

  There is a whole set of books called "The History of Middle Earth..." HoME" in shorthand. It could be in there too.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I remember some friends from India telling a joke that totally went over my head, because the punch line relied on the male / female noun endings in Hindi.  (I think -o was female?)  So yeah, that sort of thing would need changing, to avoid distracting English-speaking readers.  (I Googled bilba froda and got this.  Apparently, Bilbo's real name is indeed Bilba, but Frodo's is Maura, and their surname is Labingi.)

 

So most of the dialog in the books has been translated from something akin to Hebrew?  Odd -- I was imagining something more like Anglo-Saxon.  I wonder if Professor Tolkien subscribed to the theory that Hebrew was the original human language?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I wonder if Professor Tolkien subscribed to the theory that Hebrew was the original human language?

 

  Not so much Hebrew but the Semitic that Hebrew and most of the rest of all Middle Eastern languages stem from.