The Language (and travel) Thread

[aely]

Another one for the dictionary...

 

 

 

 

 

I was cringing so bad while he was faffing about... that I had to go and put the kettle on!

 

What does "faffing about" mean?

 

Escribblings nicely explained this:

 

Faffing about - when he was flustered, trying to work things out and just flitting round the room babbling.

 

Faff-about-around - Cambridge Dictionary

Quote from further down that page - "You are looking at an entry to do with Behaving in a silly way, "

[Carol the Dabbler]

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary (which I really should post on the Favorite Books thread) defines "faff around" or "faff about" as "to spend time doing things in a way that is not well organized and that does not achieve much."

 

I can't think of any American equivalents that I'd care to quote here!

 

[T.o.b.y]

Two more questions:

 

- Which accent does the girl have who comes up with the theory that involves Sherlock and Moriarty kissing? I really liked to hear her speak.

 

- What does "his nibs" mean?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

"his nibs" is someone who is bossy, demanding, authoritative.

[T.o.b.y]

Oh! In other words, Sherlock! Thanks, Fox.

[Undead Medic]

Two more questions:

 

- Which accent does the girl have who comes up with the theory that involves Sherlock and Moriarty kissing? I really liked to hear her speak.

 

- What does "his nibs" mean?

 

The girl in The Empty Hearse who comes up with the Moriarty/Sherlock theory is Scottish, And I believe the actress, Sharon Rooney, hails from Glasgow. Which fits with what my ears first thought of as a Glasgow accent.

 

His nibs to me is usually in reference to someone with an over inflated sense of themselves, who is rather superior in their manner towards others... So yeah, Sherlock to a tee!

[Caya]

[Carol the Dabbler]

Looks very convenient for translating Mycroft!

 

[Alice Holmes]

Can I just say that that image is completely true? Completely.

[Caya]

I think we talked about this in this thread ...

 

 

Seems Sherlock and John have finally begun addressing each other in the informal German mode of speech as of tonight (Sign's German premiere, hard as that is to believe in June).

 

(source)

 

eta: There's an explanation here.

[Carol the Dabbler]

You mean they switched modes in mid-series?  Was there any in-universe reason, or did they just -- switch? 

 

 

[Caya]

I must admit I haven't watched the dubbed version, but the lovely Geny took one for the team and wrote about it:

 

 

Oh god that is difficult to explain/show. I apologise if this is confusing.
I don’t have the exact transcript of the German ep in front of me (which I would then translate into English), neither do I have a way to rewatch it atm, so I will take the English original. They didn’t change that much anyway.
crossed out —> what he would have said in Siezlock-times
[…] —> my addition, to explain further

JOHN: Look, Sherlock, this is the biggest and most important day of my life.
SHERLOCK (dubiously, pulling a face): Well …
JOHN: No, it is! It is, and I want to be up there with the two people that I love and care about most in the world.
SHERLOCK: Yes.
(John nods. Clearly oblivious, Sherlock waits for him to tell him who these people are.)
JOHN: Mary Morstan …
SHERLOCK: Yes.
JOHN (sighing tightly): … and …
(He looks up at Sherlock, who is still waiting patiently for further information. Eventually John pulls in a long breath.)
JOHN: … SIE DU. (you). [That is >the< moment. He switches from the formal “you” (Sie) to the informal “you” (du), giving this scene a much much deeper emotional meaning than it had in English. “Du” is a game changer. “Du” says something about the status of your relationship to someone; it is instantly more personal; and the moment “Sie” changes to “du”, at least in a relationship like Sherlock’s and John’s, is a big deal. (it shouldn’t be, though. Because we all know (at least for the languages a du/Sie differentiation applies to) that it has been “du” from the moment John shook Sherlock’s hand “Ah, Mr. Holmes” — “Sherlock, please”. That is my “du” moment if I were forced to pick one. But because the “Sie” has been held onto for 3 series, changing it to “du” in that situation carries additional meaning) Interestingly enough: the “du” isn’t offered… John just goes for it, which is kiiiind of against the rules.]

[…]

Sherlock’s brain finally begins to reboot and he takes a breath. He swallows and narrows his eyes slightly as he refocuses and looks at John.
SHERLOCK: So, in fact … 
(He thinks for a moment.)
SHERLOCK: Sie meinen … erm /du/ meinst (you mean)
[sherlock starts the sentence “Sie”zing John and switches to “Du”zing … correcting himself]
JOHN: Yes.
SHERLOCK: I’m Ihr dein (your) …  [note: “Ihr” is a variation of “Sie”]
(John nods.)
SHERLOCK: … best …
JOHN: … man.
SHERLOCK (almost simultaneously): … friend?
JOHN: Yeah, ’course sind Sie das bist du das (you are). ’Course sind Sie bist du (you’re) my best friend.
(English transcript from here)

[sherlock sticks to the “du” instead of “Sie” during the best man’s speech, which, I gotta say, made the “the two people who love you most in all this world” part almost as perfect as the original. Sherlock’s words and John’s emotional reaction in that scene didn’t just reflect the sentiment of that moment in Sherlock’s speech overall, but it also, at least for me, seemed to mean so much more with the “du” now in there, instead of the “Sie”.  …. It was very well done. I gotta give them that. It was about damn time.]

[Arcadia]

That explanation actually made me  a little misty eyed.......

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Does make that whole scene a lot more powerful doesn't it?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Awww! 

 

But yeah -- 'bout time!!!

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

OK, folks, can we rationalize their use of "Sie" for two-and-a-half series?  Of course we can! 

 

I'm thinking perhaps each of them was hesitant to be the first.  When Sherlock told Sebastian that John was his "friend," and John amended it to "colleague," perhaps Sherlock took that as "permission denied."  And once things had gone along in the "Sie" vein for a while, John's reluctance might be attributable to the same trait (whatever we might call it) that made him more and more hesitant to phone Mrs. Hudson.  And what else can you guys think of?

 

But to my mind, the big question is why they didn't make the switch (as the quote above suggests) when they shifted to first names.  Can some of you native German speakers tell us whether there are circumstances when people might tend to use "Sie" even though they're on a first-name basis?

 

[Janie]

Well, the scene is actually touching but... I don't know. In Czech, there is the formal/informal way of adressing people too but I just can't imagine calling my best friend in the formal way. It would sound pretty weird and ridiculous.

 

And Carol, I'm not German but here sometimes people use the formal way while being on a first-name basis but they're not usually close friends. For example one of my colleagues calls me by my first name but she uses "Vy" (formal). It kind of depends on the relationship between the two people. I suppose it's similar in German.

[Caya]

Yeah, the only context I could think of where you're on a first name basis with someone yet use Sie is either a professional one or with an aquaintance that has an unpronounceable name (of foreign origin or something) and would rather not hear you mutilate it on a regular basis. With friends, it's du (Sie-zing a friend would make you look like Sheldon), even with most colleagues.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks, guys.

 

OK, how about this -- Sherlock forces the first-name issue in "Pink," when he insists that John call him "Sherlock" and goes right ahead and calls John "John."  What if John didn't feel quite ready for that, even though he didn't argue?  Mightn't he have stuck with "Sie," thus encouraging Sherlock to do the same?

 

Well, whatever the German translators' original reason was, I'm glad they found a logical and even dramatic opportunity to make the transition!

 

[Caya]

You might be on to something, Carol - I just checked the German version of Pink and the first direct address after Sherlock's insistence to be called Sherlock is "Dann haben Sie also verhindert, dass ihr Mann hingerichtet wurde?" by John (his inquiring about the fate of Mrs Hudson's husband).

 

If you're very traditionally-minded, Sherlock did make a slight faux-pas in that situation (if they were German native speakers, that is) ... the offer to switch to Du-mode is usually made by the older and/or higher-ranked of the pair in question. Since Sherlock is, one presumes, younger than John, this could be understood as his declaring himself as the boss in their relationship, and that would explain why John reacted a bit miffed and stuck to Sie.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

An interesting lesson in culture and etiquette as well as the language.

[Carol the Dabbler]

You might be on to something, Carol - I just checked the German version of Pink and the first direct address after Sherlock's insistence to be called Sherlock is "Dann haben Sie also verhindert, dass ihr Mann hingerichtet wurde?" by John (his inquiring about the fate of Mrs Hudson's husband).

 

If you're very traditionally-minded, Sherlock did make a slight faux-pas in that situation (if they were German native speakers, that is) ... the offer to switch to Du-mode is usually made by the older and/or higher-ranked of the pair in question. Since Sherlock is, one presumes, younger than John, this could be understood as his declaring himself as the boss in their relationship, and that would explain why John reacted a bit miffed and stuck to Sie.

 

Thanks for checking that dubbing, Martina (even though it must have been painful for you!).  Excellent point about "who's the boss" -- which we saw again in "Sign of 3."  Of course John would normally consider himself the "senior" of the two -- in terms of his profession(s) as well as age.  (But with Sherlock, as John soon learns, things are rarely "normal.")

 

Well, I think we've got that all worked out -- now all we have to do is make sense of Series 3!

[T.o.b.y]

Yeah, thanks Martina - I had one look at the German version via a thirty second clip on youtube and decided it was all I could stand. Although I must have seen the show in German the first time - after all, I was introduced to it by being shown a recording of "The Great Game" on public TV over here. But my brain has completely deleted that. Utterly. Odd.

 

Personally, I hate this "Sie / Du" business. It only makes things awkward and you never know when and how to transition from one to the other with good grace. As for hierarchy, I work in a field where that is a big issue. So I address those on my "level" as "Du" and those "above" as "Sie". So far, so good. Only now and then, a senior will try to be friendly and offer saying "Du" as well. Then I have to get used to that and switch to his or her first name (because I have never seen people actually using first names and "Sie" or vice versa, except when very young kids address their teachers). Then, if we are in the presence of our boss or have to appear professional in some other situation, we have to switch back to "Sie" and last names and I am sure to mess up. Really, I wish we'd just abolish the whole business. Hurray for English for only having "you". (Hurray for English, anyway).

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm all in favor of egalitarian language structure!  In Spanish, I'm never sure whether to use "tu" or "usted," so I just tread water till the other person uses one or the other.  (Oddly enough, it's always ended up being "tu" -- does anyone actually use "usted" anymore?)

 

My quibble with English in this area is that we've thrown away too much.  We used to have a very nice set of second-person pronouns -- thou/thee/thy for singular and (this part may be a little off) you/ye/your for plural.  When addressing a superior, however, it became common practice to use the plural (analogous to the "Royal 'we'").  Later on, people got fed up with that nonsense -- but did we revert to using the singular pronouns?  Heck no -- we just started using "you" for everybody, singular or plural -- thus confusing all of us and necessitating expressions like "y'all" and "you guys."

 

[Caya]

Well if it's any consolation, German is no less confusing about personal pronouns. "Sie", for instance, can (depending on circumstances and whether it's capitalized or not, which of course you cannot hear when spoken) mean she/her/you(as the formal address)/they/them. That's what fuels this (now outdated) Sherlock joke (source):

 

• JOHN: Sehen Sie, Sherlock, dies ist der größte und wichtigste Tag meines Lebens.  You see, Sherlock, this is the biggest and most important day of my life.
• SHERLOCK: Nunja...  Well ...
• JOHN: Nein, im Ernst! Wirklich, und ich möchte da oben mit den beiden Menschen sein, die ich am meisten liebe und die mir am meisten bedeuten.  No, really! Truly, and I want to be up there with the two people whom I love the most and who mean the most to me.
• SHERLOCK: Klar.  Sure.
• JOHN: Mary Morstan ...  Mary Morstan ...
• SHERLOCK: Ja.  Yes.
• JOHN: Und...  And ...
• JOHN: ... Sie.  ... You (but can just as well mean "her" since the capitalization is absent when spoken).
• SHERLOCK: Sie haben Mary bereits erwähnt.  You've already mentioned Mary.
• JOHN: Was? Nein, nein, ich meine...Sie!  What? No, no, I mean ... you! (again, this can mean "her", too)
• SHERLOCK: Ja, sie, ihre Verlobte, Mary, ich verstehe.  Yes, her, your fiancee, Mary, I understand.
• JOHN: Nein, Sherlock. Ich rede von Ihnen! No, Sherlock, I'm talking about you! (now "Ihnen" here can also mean "them")
• SHERLOCK: Es gibt mehr als eine Mary?  There's more than one Mary?
• JOHN: MEINE GÜTE, SHERLOCK. SIE, SIE LIEBE ICH!  BY GOLLY, SHERLOCK, YOU (or "her"), YOU (or "her") I LOVE! (word order is more flexible in German, so it can be put like this as well)
• SHERLOCK: Ja, deshalb heiraten Sie sie doch, oder nicht?  Yes, that's why you're going to marry her, aren't you?
• JOHN: *Herr im Himmel, gib mir Kraft* *Lord Above, grant me strength*