Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[jadpdr]

The whole weight of English history and British culture lies behind BC's assertions that Sherlock is not gay, while Mr Moffat behaves not just like an overgrown child bent on breaking his toys but also as a consummate tease, because he leaves little hints and then withdraws behind a barrier of impenetrability, hence the Special in Victorian mode: strictly business, no playing around, especially at a time when any same-sex relationships were punishable by law. In terms of same-sex relationships, I should think we are going to be left with the invisible Harriet and her friends in the series. One part of the fandom maybe screaming gay/lesbian, but the show has to remain mainstream to sell, and even if Mr Moffat wanted to play the gay card, how would he go about forcing his lead characters to perform it, when both have explicitly stated such is not the case?

[Arcadia]

This discussion is exactly like about Moriarty's nickname for Sherlock -The Virgin. Some people choose to put it in romance/sexual content while the others think that it denoted Sherlock's inexperience in the cloak and dagger matters. Given that no clear official evidence available so far about the real meaning then all those assumption points more to how each of our mind's works.

And maybe that's the point? To leave it up to our individual little selves? (Thanks a lot Moftiss, like I don't have enough mysteries in my life! :D )

[T.o.b.y]

The primary reason I think Sherlock isn't gay is because Moffat and Cumberbatch have said he isn't.

 

Right. There is just no sane reason for them to lie about this.

 

(Although I will just point out that the people who wrote the British sitcom "Are You Being Served" as well as the actor who played him denied that Mr Humphries was gay, whereas the entire humor of the character was based on that. To their defense, though, I must add that those were different times, and that Mr Inman had not come out yet himself. If you want to see just how ridiculous the denial was, though, and are not familiar with the show, type "Are You Being Served" into your youtube search and see for yourself...)

 

 

[Shadow Dweller]

 

 

This discussion is exactly like about Moriarty's nickname for Sherlock -The Virgin. Some people choose to put it in romance/sexual content while the others think that it denoted Sherlock's inexperience in the cloak and dagger matters. Given that no clear official evidence available so far about the real meaning then all those assumption points more to how each of our mind's works.

And maybe that's the point? To leave it up to our individual little selves? (Thanks a lot Moftiss, like I don't have enough mysteries in my life! :D )

That kind of smoke and mirror is their version of the hallucinogenic drug found in Dewer's Hollow, we might as well as see what we expected to see. Go ahead, Mofftiss, keep giving us raw materials to play with between series. ;)

[J.P.]

This  reminds me of discussions with Moonlanding Conspiracy Theorists.

[BlackButterfly]

The writers have said he is not gay , did you forget they also said he is not straight, and that he's not asexual , because that would be boring.Mr Gatiss once reffered to Sherlock as a sexual volcano .They are obviously lieing about a few things.

A few times though they have said this is version is an update of TploSh , in which Holmes falls in love with Watson and it's all, desperately unspoken..which is what we currently have.

Thats a man who loves another man ? Is it only gay if theres sex?

The only reason to say he is straight is canon , and by that method , you may as well claim Elementary Watson is a man.

[Arcadia]

Yes, I did forget that! Except for the "it would be boring" part, as I recall Moffat went on to say Sherlock's simply not interested (which seems to me to be the definition of asexual, but I get his point.)

 

I watched that movie, expecting to see what you said ... and was surprised to find it was nothing of the kind. Soooo.... back to square one, I'm afraid. Apparently it really is all in the eye of the beholder.

 

I don't think that anyone is denying that Sherlock and John love each other; I think that much, as Sherlock would say, is fairly obvious. But the term 'gay' means more than love; it refers to sexual attraction to another man, and that I simply don't see. So in that sense, yes, it's only gay if there's sex ... even if it's only the desire for sex.

[Shadow Dweller]

Yes, I did forget that! Except for the "it would be boring" part, as I recall Moffat went on to say Sherlock's simply not interested (which seems to me to be the definition of asexual, but I get his point.)

 

I watched that movie, expecting to see what you said ... and was surprised to find it was nothing of the kind. Soooo.... back to square one, I'm afraid. Apparently it really is all in the eye of the beholder.

 

I don't think that anyone is denying that Sherlock and John love each other; I think that much, as Sherlock would say, is fairly obvious. But the term 'gay' means more than love; it refers to sexual attraction to another man, and that I simply don't see. So in that sense, yes, it's only gay if there's sex ... even if it's only the desire for sex.

Indeed. According to the merriam-webster and oxford dictionaries gay means homosexual- sexually attracted to someone who is the same sex. John choose Mary even after Sherlock came back from Serbia and that is a canon fact. John also forgive Mary for lying and almost killing Sherlock, if that's not love then what? Quote from the HLV, “The problems of your past are your business. The problems of your future are my privilege."

[Boton]

Hello TY.

lots of people saying it's very platonic :-)

May I perhaps ask them a Q.

Setting platonic canon aside , and meeting this SH for the first time in Pink ,what makes you think Sherlock isn't gay?

 

Briefly in s01 we see him think his new friend John asked him on a date and brush him off with the dedicated to my work. Then everyone that knows Sherlock treats him as gay.

In TBB he sort of suggests a date after all but gets sort of turned down.

When Jim from IT enters , again Sherlock thinks correctly - gay hitting on me.

When the genius criminal reveal happens we learn , maybe some heart for John and not so busy at work....so uh gay right?

 

 

OK, I'll try to answer, since I never saw Sherlock as anything but straight and celibate until I got on the internet after watching all 9 episodes.  Now, I can't guarantee that my thoughts are going to be the definitive answer, but this is my best recollection of my feelings in S1 and my continued interpretation.

 

SiP:  I read the Angelos scene as Sherlock definitely being straight but in no way weirded out by homosexuality.  He says "not really my area" about girlfriends almost without paying attention because he's keeping his eye on the street, then he zones back in to hear John kind of clumsily "asking him out," and he responds with a carefully-rehearsed speech he's given before that lets someone down easily.  I understand how people read this scene another way, but I always see it as Sherlock being more interested in conveying his celibacy than his orientation, although I do think he wants John to know that he's really, completely, not interested in a homosexual flirtation. (Which is a good thing to clear up when you are about to move in with someone.)

 

TBB:  I don't see the subtext at all in that scene and I never have.  I always hear Sherlock saying, "No, not something boring like a date with potential kissing and handholding and---yuck!  I mean an evening where you actually have fun, like when you chase a murderer!"  If anything, I take those lines more as an argument for an asexual Sherlock than a gay one.  (And I don't really think he's asexual, either.)

 

TGG:  Just because Jim is gay and hitting on Sherlock doesn't mean, to me, that Jim's gay-dar is perfect that he's ID'd Sherlock as gay.  After all, he has an ulterior motive as Moriarty to try to start contact with Sherlock, and he's doing it in a very in-character way.  Then again, I don't assume that just because someone hits on someone that they have a lock on having figured out their "target's" sexual orientation.

 

That's just me.  You can definitely disagree.  I was just absolutely gobsmacked when I got online after watching all of Sherlock and saw all this argument that Sherlock and John were gay (or "for each other," if you prefer).  I just never saw anything that I would consider rising to the level of indicating a homosexual orientation for either of them.  So, I tend to carry that with me.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Hello TY.

lots of people saying it's very platonic :-)

May I perhaps ask them a Q.

Setting platonic canon aside , and meeting this SH for the first time in Pink ,what makes you think Sherlock isn't gay?

 

Briefly in s01 we see him think his new friend John asked him on a date and brush him off with the dedicated to my work. Then everyone that knows Sherlock treats him as gay.

In TBB he sort of suggests a date after all but gets sort of turned down.

When Jim from IT enters , again Sherlock thinks correctly - gay hitting on me.

When the genius criminal reveal happens we learn , maybe some heart for John and not so busy at work....so uh gay right?

In s02 So far Sherlock has shown no interest in women sexually at all even when they are obviously attracted to him. By the end we learn the genius criminal has based his whole big game on Sherlock being willing to sacrifice himself for John.Which he is.

So still gay?

In 03 Sherlock begs for forgiveness , rushes into a fire and does his best to make everything up to John . Being best man planning the wedding flowers bridesmaids teaching his friend John to dance etc he has almost given up the work he loves to make his friend happy, well unless John wants a case.At the wedding he acts a lot like aa bride and then leaves early after deducing they wont need him about any more. Shortly after that he writes a catty blog about his friends sex holiday and turns up high in a drugs den.

Jumping to the end , once again , Sherlock forvies his friends wife of shooting him , attempts to fix his friends marriage and then kills a man giving eveything up to keep them all safe.

Finally before before going off to die he tells John , to the best of times ,with john I assume , and yes I'm a bit of a girl I always have been. HuH Still gay then?

How do you read Sherlock as anything but gay not dating cos work , and oh in love with best friend without making an assumption before you even met him.

 

Thats amused me :-)

 

 

 

It's easy to think someone is gay when you associate certain behaviour with stereotype. However, just like millions of mystery around human nature, there is no fix formula.

 

The things that you pick up, to me look more like character they want to portray. Sherlock is the kind of person who is or try to be very cold and detached, but once you get him, like John, he would treasure the relationship. He didn't realize John thought of him so highly therefore he did all he could to repay it. He read book, he researches, and all the 'theories' told him what he had to do to be a good best man, which he wanted to. So he followed everything strictly to the book, including stressing about serviette, perfume etc, because he doesn't know better.

I think it's very sweet.   

 

It often happens in human relationship, when you show someone who thought they are unpopular, unlovable, some genuine affection, it's not easy, they might have been hurt before and build themselves a castle or shield, but once they trust and believe your intention, normally they are the one who come to your rescue when you need it the most and the one who stay by your side and do what they can for you.

Similar thing if you observe someone who is very patient, so patient...and one day another person happens to touch the raw nerve on a very precise spot.., I don't want to be there.

 

Sherlock's term for date = people who like each other having fun. It's innocent definition and definition I fond of.

Dress up, make up, formal typical movie and dinner and see if I care. Date doesn't always mean there are sexual motivation, date can be between friends, with a group. Each to their own.

 

Moriarty left his card secretly after pretend to knock down his bowl. A rock would think Moriarty hit on him.

 

Sherlock doesn't bother if anyone thought he is gay, because, well, he doesn't bother. It happens.

I have some male friends who are misunderstood as gays. As close friend, I know for sure they are not, so I asked why they don't bother to deny it. For them, there is no point wasting time when people want to think what they think.

And honestly, there is nothing gay about them, only, only that they are not in relationship with women and don't seem to be in a hurry for that, and two of them happen to be flatmate and long-time best friend.

 

Sherlock and John are special best friends. Special because their friendship has stronger bond because it's not usual.

If you ever participate in war, extreme activities or sports when you and group have to take care each other and depend on each other literally for your life and safety, especially when something goes wrong or trapped in miserable and extremely dangerous situation, you would develop a special bond that can never be shared with others, because only them share what you went through and know exactly what you feel.

Mycroft said something along the line: normally in London, people see buses, buildings and cars. With Sherlock Holmes, you see the battle zone or war.

Both of them went through various dangerous situation and saved each other lives many times and many ways.

They love each other, and will sacrifice themselves for each other, of course, but what they have is special friendship, and it's very possible to remain platonic.

 

Many say it's difficult and close to impossible to have platonic long term relationship, but have to disagree because I have so many of them, from both gender. Wouldn't know until it happens, which I hope never, but like to think that I would pull my friends out of fire too, although I never think of them or want to have any relationship that way.

 

Well, actually I am the clottest of the clots in understanding human feeling when I'm involved.

So you better find another answer because very sure you don't buy mine.

 

 

Add: I didn't see/hear many of BC's interviews, but I remember some when he was very open-minded about his sexuality and even sharing story about his curiosity or something along that. So it doesn't make sense to me if he denied this, if it's true.

And I believe in Benedict Timothy Carlton Cumberbatch.  :sherlock2: 

[J.P.]

Why it is so important that Sherlock is gay?

 

 

J P. Could possibly be pheasants they have a bit of a tail and theres the shooting thing so match.
But they are yellow and blue which seems more parrot cols.Though that might look brown and red to you lol.

 

No, the pheasants are blue and yellow, because the design is blue and yellow. There are also grey leaves on the plant shown there. And butterflies with blue body and legs... sorry, that's not a valid point.

 

Whatever is on that wallpaper is not a parrot. HERE is more elaborate explanation.

 

And I still don't see any fanart on Anderson's fireplace.

[BlackButterfly]

Arcadia yes I agree I don't see that at all in tplosh , what I said about the film is something MG has said several times.Sorry for not being clear.

 

@ J P I agree they could be pheasants as I said. I have been to a fair few english country houses and pheasant shoots and also seen a lot of pheasant paintings beer matts plates teapots wallpaper etc etc .So yes. You can't probably go by colour. But it does bring parrots more to my mind, either way both fit , and three women witn bird wallpaper that seems representative. Maybe Molly has pheasants too. Shot ones.

 

And the art on Andersons fireplace. You think the cast and crew drew them then ? Maybe.

 

@Sherlock is a comedy programme that's only ever semi serious.

Everyone that Sherlock knows , including his brother Mycroft , who is always right , suggest SH is gay and SH has never denied it . Why ?

Agree with view that maybe asexual and very likely considers any sex convo worthy of only goldfish .

[T.o.b.y]

Why it is so important that Sherlock is gay?

 

It isn't really. Is it? I mean, Sherlock Holmes does not have a sex life anyway, so it's completely irrelevant whom he theoretically would sleep with if he did sleep with anybody.

 

We were talking about getting emotionally invested in fictional relationships (or the possibility thereof, though), and for those fans who really wish that the boys would get together, it would of course be good news if at least one of them was gay, so I guess that's why it's such a hot topic. It would just increase the probability of that pairing coming true.

 

Oh what do I know. We just all like to speculate and gossip. And since it isn't real people we're running our mouths about, it's all fine, I hope.

[BlackButterfly]

Agree@Toby . Speculation is fun. The Q , is a good one tooo.

Is it Important is Sh is gay...well no. Only a few people Do seem to get angry at the suggestion.

Sherlock Holmes according to various sources is the most depicted icon in literature and film , it's beyond count and we all have faves. My fave is Vasily Livanov btw. Anyway apart from some manga I don't know of any depictions of a gay SH and for idk maybe almost 100 years some people have Speculated he might be gay.

Some people say -there is nothing new under the sun- so a gay depiction of SH would be new, and in this dull world , new is always good. So after idk all these years of speculation and given the uncountable number of hetero SH , it might be time and interesting and Important to the history of SH , to examine the idea , of a gay Sherlock Holmes.

[Arcadia]

OK, I'll try to answer, since I never saw Sherlock as anything but straight and celibate until I got on the internet after watching all 9 episodes.

 Same here. (And imagine my shock....) Does that mean I'm right? No. But it does mean, if they are trying to portray Sherlock as a gay/bisexual/asexual icon, they are being too subtle about it!

 

It's easy to think someone is gay when you associate certain behaviour with stereotype. However, just like millions of mystery around human nature, there is no fix formula.

 Yes, this. That's one reason I'm wary of the whole "gay subtext" -- it relies heavily on stereotypes, and that seems unfair to me. Better to declare it openly, imo. Then at least we know we're talking about the same thing, without a lot of wink wink nod nod.

 

Is it Important is Sh is gay...well no. Only a few people Do seem to get angry at the suggestion.

I'm sure there are people who get angry at the idea that Holmes and Watson are actually gay. But from what I'm reading here, it's not so much the suggestion that Sherlock is gay; the anger -- or discomfort, if you will -- comes from reading sexual content into something normally thought to be innocent. Some people, for a variety of reasons I'm sure, simply don't want everything to be about sex.

 

Sherlock Holmes according to various sources is the most depicted icon in literature and film , it's beyond count and we all have faves. My fave is Vasily Livanov btw. Anyway apart from some manga I don't know of any depictions of a gay SH and for idk maybe almost 100 years some people have Speculated he might be gay.

Some people say -there is nothing new under the sun- so a gay depiction of SH would be new, and in this dull world , new is always good. So after idk all these years of speculation and given the uncountable number of hetero SH , it might be time and interesting and Important to the history of SH , to examine the idea , of a gay Sherlock Holmes.

I agree. But shouldn't a gay Sherlock be proud of, and open about, his sexuality? That's the gay hero I would want to see, not one that cloaks it all in allusion, coy signals and schoolboy jokes. But of course, that's just me. I've always been annoyed by innuendo; I would attribute that to my straight-laced, Midwestern upbringing, but I dont' have one. :P

[BlackButterfly]

Arcadia. Fabulous comment. I agree.Why oh Why have they put all this gay subtext.

@by the way bicycle is not reaching! If only you knew SoHo. Molly and Tom also makes me lol.

Can't explain. Victorian london slang (molly house molly cant molly and tommy )and cockney rhyming slang and london gay culture doing bike tricks has an answer maybe.

[J.P.]

I'm sure there are people who get angry at the idea that Holmes and Watson are actually gay. But from what I'm reading here, it's not so much the suggestion that Sherlock is gay; the anger -- or discomfort, if you will -- comes from reading sexual content into something normally thought to be innocent. Some people, for a variety of reasons I'm sure, simply don't want everything to be about sex.

 

 

I'm tired of it, to be honest. I'm tired of stumbling about this issue in every second text I read. There is soooo much more interesting stuff in the show than that.

 

 

it might be time and interesting and Important to the history of SH , to examine the idea , of a gay Sherlock Holmes.

I agree. But shouldn't a gay Sherlock be proud of, and open about, his sexuality? That's the gay hero I would want to see, not one that cloaks it all in allusion, coy signals and schoolboy jokes.

THIS. Yes. THIS!

[BlackButterfly]

I find the academic papers about it fascinating for example...

 

 

http://joolabee.tumblr.com/post/120369020269

 

cointains so many things I never noticed.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Must.. resist.. but.. 

Is it possible to say something that sound offensive but I don't mean it to be offensive?

 

Ha..

Anyway, my opinion is not addressed to you BlackButterfly. I appreciate your effort.

 

If, if anyone wants my honest opinion about the article, I sum it up in one sentence, that keep on popping in my head while I was reading it:

 

That's a load of crap.

 

Sorry.

 

[Arcadia]

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything new there, and a lot of it is wishful thinking:
 

"Holmes is rumored to have been based off of Oscar Wilde"

-- well, we know he wasn't, he was (actually, not rumored to be) based (loosely) on Joseph Bell. 
 

"After this conversation {with Irene at the power plant, in Scandal}, John eschews women completely (until he thinks Sherlock is dead...)"

-- on the contrary, John was more than happy to chat up the lady psychiatrist in "Hounds".
 

"phones play a larger role in Sherlock than on other television"

-- the writer obviously didn't see the first season of "24", the plot of which would have been impossible without mobile phones. And that aired, what --- a good eight or nine years before Sherlock did. McGuigan may have come up with a new visual for using phones, but the concept is hardly new.
 
As John's trick cyclist would say, "You see my point?" The writer has achieved a passing grade by establishing a point of view, then marshalling arguments to support that point of view. But arguments aren't facts, and there are precious few of those available to us, I'm afraid. Hence, speculation. Speculating can be fun, but it doesn't reveal the truth, I'm afraid. At best, speculation can prepare us for acknowledging the truth when/if it finally appears; at worst, it can muddle the facts to the point where no one will accept the truth when it's finally known. (See: modern "news" channels.)
 
My bottom line is: if Moftiss want "the rest of us" to believe Sherlock is gay/bi/whatever, they need to show it, not allude to it. So far, imo, the only thing they've "shown" us is a man who holds himself above all of that; his interests lie elsewhere. Not very believable, perhaps, but little about Sherlock is! (And yet at the same time, he seems so real ... how do they do that?) (I "blame" Benny's brilliant acting .... )  The only firm conclusion I've been able to draw so far is that they don't want us to draw firm conclusions!
 
PS - you're right, I know nothing about SoHo slang or whatever! I appreciate your discretion in referring to it, however, and I get your drift. :P On with the speculating ....

[Arcadia]

Must.. resist.. but.. 

Is it possible to say something that sound offensive but I don't mean it to be offensive?

 

Ha..

Anyway, my opinion is not addressed to you BlackButterfly. I appreciate your effort.

 

If, if anyone wants my honest opinion about the article, I sum it up in one sentence, that keep on popping in my head while I was reading it:

 

That's a load of crap.

 

Sorry.

 

That is the noblest effort to be offensive without offending I have ever seen. Here, you get a :cookie: !!

 

And Blackbutterfly, you get a !! You're very brave to keep coming back here and presenting your case to us hardcore skeptics! I have to say, imo the champions of finding subtext are at http://loudest-subtext-in-television.tumblr.com/; some of the arguments there are pretty darn convincing. Hence my reluctance to dismiss it all as, er, crap ... even though most of the time I can find a perfectly plausible explanation for why the "subtext" isn't that at all.

 

I predict we'll never know for sure, but it sure keeps the conversation going, doesn't it?

[J.P.]

 

Spoiler alert, this paper earned a “well, you’ve convinced me!” from my skeptic professor who’d never seen the show, so  I’m considering it a victory.

 

Oh, that's the best! Try to convince someone who actually have seen the show.

[BlackButterfly]

Well tbh I am not really sure how I ended up defending the gay side of things lol..sort of the moment I mentioned I think its in the subtext everyone is like your imagining things or a crazy moon hoaxer or something , platonic only please...which is funny and irresistible!

I do think its in the subtext for sure the arguments I have read are very convincing.I would like to read loudest... blog people mention it a lot but I cannot get it to ever load,I use a itablet mostly.

I am also of the idea that a lot of the other stuff is more interesting .

[Arcadia]

It's all interesting, whatever viewpoint you look at it from , imo. (It had better be, or I won't survive the hiatus!)

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

Must.. resist.. but.. 

Is it possible to say something that sound offensive but I don't mean it to be offensive?

 

Ha..

Anyway, my opinion is not addressed to you BlackButterfly. I appreciate your effort.

 

If, if anyone wants my honest opinion about the article, I sum it up in one sentence, that keep on popping in my head while I was reading it:

 

That's a load of crap.

 

Sorry.

 

That is the noblest effort to be offensive without offending I have ever seen. Here, you get a :cookie: !

 

My first cookie!  :D 

Thank you, I am starving!