Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

Dear Aurelie, a Johnloc wedding on BBC One is out of the question, it would compromise almost a century of tradition, never mind that Graham Greene wrote a play about A.J. Raffles and Bunny Manders as a romantic pair, involving Oscar Wilde and Lord Alfred Douglas at the same time as Sir Hugh Greene, his younger brother, was the Governor General of BBC!

But if you are looking for one in fan fiction, then in Ao3 you have Letters from Sussex by sussexbound and The Other Game series by Ozymanreis, but please heed the tags!

I will take a look to those fanfictions. And I know that I'll never get to see a Johnlock wedding, but I can dream right?

[T.o.b.y]

I will take a look to those fanfictions. And I know that I'll never get to see a Johnlock wedding, but I can dream right?

 

Dream on by all means! For a moment there, you had me wondering what such a wedding would be like. The craziest event ever, I guess.

 

[Fantasy Lover]

 

I will take a look to those fanfictions. And I know that I'll never get to see a Johnlock wedding, but I can dream right?

Dream on by all means! For a moment there, you had me wondering what such a wedding would be like. The craziest event ever, I guess.

I imagine Moriarty would gate crash the wedding

[Arcadia]

....  But to me, the tarmac scene didn't necessarily need to end with a spoken or unspoken "I love you."  I thought Sherlock was warming up to say something along the lines of "Your friendship has meant a great deal to me, and I'll always be grateful for having you as a best friend."  And then he was too British to even get that much out, so he turned it into a joke.  I would have trouble with that kind of confession too, so I don't know that it has to be a confession of love that was suppressed, just a strong emotion.

And it's my belief that John understood that perfectly, wanted to say something in return, but was also too British. Thus the hesitation before he accepted Sherlock's handshake. Following his commander's lead. Again. There's a lot of weight behind that simple gesture, it almost had me in tears. Arrghghg, I'm getting misty again just thinking about it. Darn emotions.

 

The nodding thing. That's interesting, because if it's hard to fake a body language, so most probably it was deliberately ...or maybe the subtext belongs to Martin? :P

 

Talking about deliberately - it is really hard to know, because sometimes little details are important, and sometimes not. You have the sqash ball, and you have the dog figure on Sherlock's shelf, or the infamous Ugly Duckling mission on Mycroft's computer. The later two are accidental, at least it's what I was told.

Or the nod could be body language for "Yes, I really mean it." A nod for emphasis, if you will. 

 

It occurs to me that with things like the squash ball, the writers have really primed us to expect every little detail to have significance. Oooh, you clever, naughty little boys.....

 

I will concede that the "who am I" game was flirtatious, but I don't think it was necessarily heading to sex.  I do think that sometimes people flirt with people that they don't have a sexual interest in; in fact, I think it's more likely that you will flirt with someone you know is not interested in you and that you are not interested in, because it's safe and fun.  I guess I might be projecting my own behavior onto Sherlock, but that's probably what I would do when intoxicated (not that I'd know this for sure; nope, no way..... :P ).

I'm not sure Sherlock even knows he's flirting! A lot of us see his behavior as flirty with Molly in TEH, and with Janine in TSo3, yet at the same time I don't get the vibe that Sherlock is hoping it will lead to "something more". To me it's more he's just relaxing and having fun with someone he likes. The "who am I" game comes across to me the same way, only boozier.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Arcadia, Benedict himself termed it a "very British affair" in the commentary to SiB, during the scene of John and Irene, so reticence is a given.

I will concede that Sherlock used Janine in several ways both in SOT and HLV, but as for Molly in TEH, he simply wanted to give her the best gift possible in his power: let her share one of his days solving mysteries, that's why he was so hesitant about asking her, because she might not find it sufficiently important to share in The Work, and the way they look at each other over Mr Chilcott's shoulder is much more that of two intelligent people exchanging views than in any way flirtatious. And she declines his offer of dinner right at the end, although that was her first assumption when she came to his summons, and each goes their separate way.

[J.P.]

 

I'm not sure Sherlock even knows he's flirting! A lot of us see his behavior as flirty with Molly in TEH, and with Janine in TSo3, yet at the same time I don't get the vibe that Sherlock is hoping it will lead to "something more". To me it's more he's just relaxing and having fun with someone he likes.

 

Yeah, maybe Sherlock also read some good books about good manners along with that Speach-Book.

 

 

It occurs to me that with things like the squash ball, the writers have really primed us to expect every little detail to have significance. Oooh, you clever, naughty little boys.....

 

Then - they better KNOW their details...

[Boton]

I'm not sure Sherlock even knows he's flirting! A lot of us see his behavior as flirty with Molly in TEH, and with Janine in TSo3, yet at the same time I don't get the vibe that Sherlock is hoping it will lead to "something more". To me it's more he's just relaxing and having fun with someone he likes. The "who am I" game comes across to me the same way, only boozier.

 

 

 

 

I agree that he was flirting with both Molly and with Janine, and I completely agree that flirting doesn't always lead to "something more."  Sometimes (maybe even often), flirting is a way of reinforcing your connection with another human being and feeling alive and energized.  And, for me, some of the best flirting happens exactly when you think nothing else could ever come of it, because then you are freed up to have fun!

 

Honestly, though, it never occurred to me in my first several watchings of the "who am I" scene to view that as flirtatious or with a subtext.  It wasn't until I got on the internet that I realized people were seeing it that way.  To me, it just seems like a couple of guys who turned out to not be able to handle their booze as well as they thought ultimately crashing in their own flat and playing  a stupid drinking game because that's what they thought they should do on stag night.  

[Arcadia]

 

 

 

It occurs to me that with things like the squash ball, the writers have really primed us to expect every little detail to have significance. Oooh, you clever, naughty little boys.....

 

Then - they better KNOW their details...

 

Not necessarily, all they have to do is convince US that they do! :D

 

 

 

Honestly, though, it never occurred to me in my first several watchings of the "who am I" scene to view that as flirtatious or with a subtext.  It wasn't until I got on the internet that I realized people were seeing it that way.  To me, it just seems like a couple of guys who turned out to not be able to handle their booze as well as they thought ultimately crashing in their own flat and playing  a stupid drinking game because that's what they thought they should do on stag night.  

 

Same same.

[Shadow Dweller]

Article about Steven Moffat's view of Sherlock, John, Irene, Mycroft and Moriarty.

thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/05/07/479306/steven-moffat-on-sherlocks-return-the-holmes-watson-love-story-and-updating-the-first-supervillain/

Edited July 31, 2015 by Arcadia
fixed link

[sittything]

Oh, I really like that article.   I always find it so interesting to get the viewpoint of a show's creator(s). How they see they characters, where they see the show/characters going.

 

So from that I took away:

 

- Sherlock did fancy Irene.  Debate settled.  At first I was a bit unclear on Moffat's use of the word "fancy" b/c I thought maybe he just meant infatuation, of not necessarily a sexual nature.  But then later he uses the word fancy to mean just that, sooooo.

- I feel like I need to watch some Basil Rathbone so I can see the man they imagine this Sherlock turning into one day.

 

[Arcadia]

Agreed, I liked that a lot. What he describes is the Sherlock  I've been watching, not all these "ship" theories. (So what's with all the flirting in S3, Moftiss????)

[Inge l-w]

Flirting only? Here we're talking cross-dressing like Uncle Rudy, and despite the photoshop job, he still looks nice-ish:

 

 

 

 

 

And here's one to cheer you up a bit:

[J.P.]

Is it your work?

But you know there is actually a picture of Ben in drag, don't you?

[Inge l-w]

Dear J.P., nope, they are from a BC site, but an actor can do a lot of things, and I remember that all parts in Ancient Greek theatre were played by male actors, so if he had to, he would, and here's a drawing:

[jadpdr]

And it's not only Aurelie here: this was yesterday on the much-abused original telephone box on the side of St Bartholomew's Hospital, while someone imitated Benedict's signature?

[Shadow Dweller]

Take a look at the content of the listed tumblr account and draw your own conclusion, lol.

[Boton]

Agreed, I liked that a lot. What he describes is the Sherlock  I've been watching, not all these "ship" theories. (So what's with all the flirting in S3, Moftiss????)

 

I liked that article too, and I wonder if this particular incarnation of Sherlock Holmes is another step in the progression of television stories.  (And my experience here is primarily with American TV with some British thrown in, so others should definitely correct me!)

 

It seems like, in the 1950s and 60s, the focus in television shows was on the family.  The whole point of most shows was to showcase people growing up, falling in love, getting married, and having children so that the cycle could begin again.  Sex was very much part of this as the implicit engine that keeps the life cycle turning, even if it wasn't always explicitly referred to.

 

By the 1970s through the 90s, you started getting a lot of workplace ensemble shows.  One's primary relationships took place in one's workplace or apartment building or any place but the traditional home.  Sex was an increasing part of this in a glorification of a "friends with benefits" kind of attitude.

 

Sherlock, however, seems to be a step beyond that to a new kind of look at human relationships.  Sex is or isn't present; who cares?  Presumably, all of these characters are taking care of their sexual needs however they see fit, just like they do their hunger, thirst, and need for sleep, but only cursory mentions are really made of that.  The interesting part is the human relationships, and those take place primarily without overt or constant sexual overtones.  

 

I think that makes the Sherlock and John relationship interesting.  Yes, they are a couple.  They are a primary relationship for both men, and one that draws some parallels to other types of primary relationships: romantic ones, certainly, but also familial ones.  But the fact that they are a couple doesn't really inform us completely about their sex lives.  As far as I can tell, John is happy enough with a series of heterosexual relationships that have culminated thus far in his marriage.  Sherlock is happy enough sublimating his sexuality just like he does his appetite for food during a case.  But the primary relationship stays front and center.

[J.P.]

Wasn't Scully/Mulder relationship also of this kind - for the most time? I remember liking X-Files just because of that.

(okayokay, I hear the Subtext approaching again, with the parallel "M and S finally did it, so Johnlock is real" used as an argument :P)

[Arcadia]

Hm, I think that may be true about comedy shows, but I'm not so sure about dramas ... (and really, how many have we had that were both, like Sherlock? Star Trek, sometimes ... Buffy ... must be more but I'm drawing a blank. But a small amount compared to strictly comedy or strictly drama, I suspect.) Anyway, it seems to me dramas have nearly always been about the workplace relationships more than the home ones.....?? Or maybe I just didn't watch the latter? Offhand I can't think of even one....

 

Are you saying Sherlock sublimates his sexuality only when he's on a case?

 

And how are you feeling? All recovered?

[sittything]

Wasn't Scully/Mulder relationship also of this kind - for the most time? I remember liking X-Files just because of that.

(okayokay, I hear the Subtext approaching again, with the parallel "M and S finally did it, so Johnlock is real" used as an argument :P)

 

Yes and no to Mulder and Scully?  Like I get that Chris Carter never intended for them to end up a couple, he unwittingly cast two people in the roles who happened to have an insane amount of chemistry that even he couldn't fight it in the end.  But one thing I've always loved about the Mulder and Scully relationship (they're hands down my favorite fictional couple of all time), is that their entire relationship (which didn't even happen until season 7 of 9) was built on their friendship first and foremost.  They were each others touchstones and constants (to borrow from them), and they trusted nobody as much as they trusted each other, despite their different perspectives.  Scully was originally sent in to debunk Mulder's work and all the powers that be achieved was creating this fantastic duo.

 

To quote Scully:  "Well, it seems to me that the best relationships - the ones that last - are frequently the ones that are rooted in friendship. You know, one day you look at the person and you see something more than you did the night before. Like a switch has been flicked somewhere. And the person who was just a friend is... suddenly the only person you can ever imagine yourself with."

 

So I can kinda see comparing the two, but I have hard a hard time separating the romantic relationship that eventually happened with Mulder and Scully from my overall view of them.

 

Now if Sherlock and John start gazing at each other like Mulder and Scully did (even in season 3... still in the definite nope never gonna happen period), then I may have to rethink this.    ;)

 

[T.o.b.y]

Now I've forgotten what I wanted to say because Scully is so damn lovely... :lol: I have to do some X-Files watching again one of these days.

 

Where were we... oh, comparing Mulder and Scully to Sherlock and John. Hm, I'd say they don't really compare at all, the dynamic is pretty different.

 

Boton, I like your point that on Sherlock, the relationships between characters are largely explored without emphasizing the sexual aspects much. Look at Sherlock and Irene - he was clearly turned on by her in some way, but it's not quite clear how exactly or in what way he'd have liked to act upon that (if at all) if he ever got the chance. We don't know if they ever had any kind of physical intimacy, and we don't need to know to follow the story of their twisted love. Even with John and Mary, the fact that Mary must have gotten pregnant somehow isn't very central to their relationship as shown to the audience. They're very believable as a married couple, but we aren't privy to their kisses or anything beyond.

 

I like that. There's nothing at all wrong with sex, but it has been so central to so many, many love stories that I find it refreshing to see a show where it's sort of pushed into the background and other aspects of how humans relate with each other are emphasized. Also, it's kind of pleasant that the characters have some kind of privacy. It somehow makes them feel more real to me that there's stuff about them that is none of my business.

[Arcadia]

Now if Sherlock and John start gazing at each other like Mulder and Scully did ...

Some people say they do! :D There's even a word for it, which I can't think of right now because I'm soooo tired...

[sittything]

Oh, no, no.... nobody gazes like Mulder and Scully.  Literally half the show is them gazing at each other, communicating with their beautiful people stares.  Words, Mulder and Scully didn't need words.  Ya know, just professional coworkers being professional.  lol
 

 
Toby- Season 3 Scully is so old-Hollywood;  I loved that look.

[T.o.b.y]

:lol: How could anyone remain entirely professional around Scully? I wouldn't. If I had a coworker like that, I'd be staring too (apparently, I already do that. A colleague once said to me "stop looking at me with quite so much blatant admiration" - in the middle of a meeting. The fact that everyone present considered this funny says a lot about what a good team I was on at the time).

 

Come to think of it, how could anyone help staring at Sherlock? He's extremely striking, in looks as well as behavior. You wouldn't even have to be attracted to him to stare. (If Sherlock were real and anywhere near me, I'd probably follow him around with my mouth open and glazed-over eyes. He would hate me, I can tell you! :P)

 

I don't see anybody on the show looking at him like that. Molly's glances are certainly very fond, but that's understandable. When they show a close-up of John looking at him, I mostly see "WTF!?!?!" written all over his face - as well it might.

[Boton]

 

Are you saying Sherlock sublimates his sexuality only when he's on a case?

 

And how are you feeling? All recovered?

 

Well, you know, there are Sherlock Holmes portrayals that postulate that very thing.  Both House and Elementary have a Holmes character that uses prostitutes to unwind and reset after a case.  Personally, I think our Sherlock is busy trying to sublimate his sexuality most of the time, and Mycroft is the one taking advantage of a little known benefit of membership in the Diogenes club....   :D

 

And yes, thank you for asking; I'm so much better!  I still have a few weeks of therapy before I can get back to anything that looks like competitive dancing, but right now my knee feels fabulous!  Surgery was definitely the best thing I've ever done medically.