Meta: Sherlock, Aspergers and Autism - the psychiatrists opinion

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've had the good fortune to meet a few people who were autistic, and none of them were like Rain Man. None of them were like each other, either; all different, just like all of us!

 

Having said that, I don't like the movie either! But if I remember correctly, it's more because I don't like Tom Cruise very much, than for any other reason.

 

Oh, that was Tom Cruise, was it?  I didn't much care for him either (in that movie anyhow), but I love Dustin Hoffman, and thought he gave a really amazing performance, so it averaged out on the plus side for me.

 

In Sherlock terms, if he didn't work flipping hard at becoming what he is, "what's the point" of him?

 

Does it matter how/why he's able to do what he does?  But I agree with Arcadia, it seems like a combination.  He's obviously observant (which could be innate or learned, but I'm guessing it's talent plus practice) AND intuitive (which is surely innate) AND knowledgeable (obviously learned).  The important point is that it all works together very nicely.

 

I guess I can sort of see your point.  If Sherlock had started life as an average, ordinary person and acquired his "superpowers" entirely by study and practice, that would be truly amazing -- but it also seems highly improbable that such a thing could be done.  Doesn't the original Holmes himself say something along the lines of "I discovered I had a talent for that sort of thing"?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Dear Arcadia, there're people out there in the fan fiction universe, who claim that Mr Moffatt declared that he saw Sherlock as belonging to the autistic spectrum. Otherwise, his instantaneous deductions would not make any sense. If he suffers from sensory overload, then all the years he spent studying all the necessary science to hone his skills would be put down to spectrum capabilities, making him a high-functioning ASD-sufferer instead of the unique forensic genius he is supposed to be! That's how his extraordinary gifts would be negated! Thanks for your suggestion!

 

Anna, I'm no expert, but I think you're confusing two different areas of the autistic spectrum.  As I understand it, "high functioning" refers to individuals with relatively mild autistic symptoms.  As aurelie says, such individuals have no inherent "superpowers."  Their knowledge and abilities are acquired and/or inborn in exactly the same way as in a non-autistic person.  They just have some difficulties with social interactions.  This is where Sherlock might fit into the autistic spectrum.

 

Someone like "Rain Man" is not "high functioning" at all.  He's more of what used to be called an "idiot savant," someone with severe learning disabilities and mental impairment except for one or two highly-specific innate skills.  Sherlock appears to be highly intelligent (i.e., not mentally impaired at all) with a good ability to learn (e.g., Molly describes him as "a graduate chemist").  Even if some of his skills are somewhat innate (in the sense that we all have inborn talents), he is by no stretch of the imagination an "idiot savant," and I don't believe anyone has ever claimed that he was.

[sfmpco]

BC has tossed out the autistic word and John's character tossed out Aspergers.  Sherlock is highly intelligent in areas that interest him, and he's constantly putting new information into his "hard drive" that may prove useful, but I would suspect there are many things at which he is entirely useless mainly because those things hold no interest to him or have no significance in his life.  His knowledge base seems largely committed to science, crime, forensics, and then some left over for the arts.  It isn't just that he is able to have this great base of knowledge in sciences, however, but that he has a natural talent of being able to put together pieces that others overlook - and do it almost instantly, innately.  He actually can't stop the process from happening. Sometimes he has to talk it through to himself, sometimes he gets something slightly wrong, but it's a gift that he has.

[Inge l-w]

My views are wholly on the side of ShadowDweller and Van Buren on this one! The original character discovered he had a penchant for this kind of work as late as The Gloria Scott, well into his university studies, and he achieved the rest by dint of extremely hard work, Mycroft's look-down-the-nose attitude for "police court cases" , and amassing all the snippets of crime around Europe. Not because he couldn't help but observe what the average person couldn't. Dear Arcadia has admitted to missing the yellow mask in Many Happy returns, and I do hope she's a normal, intelligent human being, not Spock or Q (and I mean Star Trek Next Generation!).

[Shadow Dweller]

Though if Sherlock really can digest a lot of information at amazing speed then no wonder he complain of boredom between cases. With only few subjects that take his interest, the gaping void between mind-stimulations can be really torturous to bear. :|

[jadpdr]

If his deductions are a result of a condition rather than hard training, what makes him so special as to have endured for so long as one of the most famous literary figures, never mind crime fighters! I tend to agree with ShadowDweller, VanBuren and Inge on this. Where would be the sheer grandeur and magnificence of his talent and ingenuity if they came through a mental condition?

[Arcadia]

But they do come from a mental condition! His mental condition is that he's unusually intelligent. An average person cannot do what he does, therefore he is not average ... he's above average. He didn't learn to be above average, he was born with the capacity for it, and developed it. Whether or not he also has Asperger's or autism or ten different -opathys does not negate his basic intelligence. Is a mute person less intelligent because he cannot express his ideas out loud? Is Stephen Hawking less intelligent because he has a body that will not obey his will?

 

Personally, I think we're all saying the same thing; Sherlock was born smart and worked hard to develop the talents he was given. Where we part ways is in assuming that a person with a particular disability - autism - cannot be smart. That their abilities cannot be a result of learning. And that's simply untrue. I personally don't believe Sherlock displays, or has, any form of autism ... but I believe he could, and still be as brilliant as he is.

[Shadow Dweller]

www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/ Think Sherlock might be one? I don't think he's a savant, though.

Interesting that the Holmes brothers one tends to focus to the trees while the other goes for the forest. A pity we didn't know yet whether it is because their different brain wiring or because one of them choose to develop the habit out of necessity.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Arcadia
fixed link

[bedelia1984]

I tend to believe that we all of us could fall somewhere on some scale of some mental 'condition', if we just looked hard enough. But that probably says more about my views of humanity than my view of Sherlock.

 

I think John describes Sherlock as having Aspergers quite flippantly, but also because if you squint, you can see some traits there with Sherlock, and just sometimes it must be nice for John to have some sort of an explanation for him.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think you're absolutely right.  John's "diagnosis" seems like sort of "well, if I have to pin a label on him..." rather than anything definite.  And yeah, we all have our quirks.  I've heard it said that pretty much anyone who goes to a psychiatrist gets a diagnosis.

 

That's not to say that there aren't some people with serious mental and/or emotional problems.  I've known a few.  But the key word there is "few."

 

[Arcadia]

I think you're absolutely right.  John's "diagnosis" seems like sort of "well, if I have to pin a label on him..." rather than anything definite.  And yeah, we all have our quirks.  I've heard it said that pretty much anyone who goes to a psychiatrist gets a diagnosis.

 

That's not to say that there aren't some people with serious mental and/or emotional problems.  I've known a few.  But the key word there is "few."

 

'Xactly.

 

[J.P.]

Alone being here each day proves that we all have a condition. Sherlocker Syndrome. Holmesia. Mycroftismus. Moriartism...

[Arcadia]

I was listening to a news program one time about an autistic girl and what her experience was like going to college. They started mentioning some of the traits that were identified as on the autistic spectrum; difficulty making friends, trouble interpreting what emotion different facial expressions conveyed, social awkwardness, stuff like that ... and I remember thinking "Well, hell, by their definition, I and everyone I know is autistic!"

[Van Buren Supernova]

Alone being here each day proves that we all have a condition. Sherlocker Syndrome. Holmesia. Mycroftismus. Moriartism...

Can I choose Holmestisimus? It sounds like a proper species name.

 

... some of the traits that were identified as on the autistic spectrum; difficulty making friends, trouble interpreting what emotion different facial expressions conveyed, social awkwardness, stuff like that ... and I remember thinking "Well, hell, by their definition, I and everyone I know is autistic!"

Yup indeed.. who defines normal anyway. Those traits sound perfectly normal to me..

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

... some of the traits that were identified as on the autistic spectrum; difficulty making friends, trouble interpreting what emotion different facial expressions conveyed, social awkwardness, stuff like that ... and I remember thinking "Well, hell, by their definition, I and everyone I know is autistic!"

Yup indeed.. who defines normal anyway. Those traits sound perfectly normal to me..

 

 

I've got those symptoms and so does my son (who was formally diagnosed).  But there is also motor skill issues as well.  I had a counselor ask me once if I would be diagnosed on the spectrum.  My response was more or less not sure because I was exposed to serious dysfunction growing up which could cause much of the same issues.

 

For me to consider Sherlock on the spectrum I would need to know how he was as a young child.  Was there language delay, motor skill issues, etc in addition to social aspects of the spectrum as geniuses often don't get the social aspect of life.

 

My son used to think that playing with someone meant playing next to them not necessarily with the same set of toys.

[Shadow Dweller]

Learnt new word today, alexithymia.

[Arcadia]

Easy for you to say! :D

[Boton]

Just from my incredibly-lay-level understanding of autism, I don't think Sherlock qualifies as being on the spectrum.  I make that judgement purely using what we have seen on screen, so I try not to project comments made into assumptions about his childhood or university years, etc.  

 

I do think that the creators take advantage of the fact that there are some traits and behaviors that are common among people with exceptional and profound giftedness (high IQ) that overlap with behaviors from what used to be called Asperger's syndrome.  To my knowledge, however, there has not been a proven link between Aspergers and high IQ such that you could assume someone with high IQ is more likely to be on the spectrum.  

 

(One example is rocking or other bodily movement to help tune out distractions.  Bill Gates at one point said that he employed this technique, and I've known a few people who would rock while studying or concentrating very intently; none of these people were on the spectrum.)

 

That said, some parts of the autism community have said that they take a certain amount of comfort from Sherlock's behavior and look upon him as a positive autism role model.  I'd never want to disallow that interpretation of the character, any more than I want to disallow an interpretation of Sherlock as asexual just because I don't think the evidence points there.

[T.o.b.y]

Just from my incredibly-lay-level understanding of autism, I don't think Sherlock qualifies as being on the spectrum.  I make that judgement purely using what we have seen on screen, so I try not to project comments made into assumptions about his childhood or university years, etc.  

 

I do think that the creators take advantage of the fact that there are some traits and behaviors that are common among people with exceptional and profound giftedness (high IQ) that overlap with behaviors from what used to be called Asperger's syndrome.  To my knowledge, however, there has not been a proven link between Aspergers and high IQ such that you could assume someone with high IQ is more likely to be on the spectrum.  

 

(One example is rocking or other bodily movement to help tune out distractions.  Bill Gates at one point said that he employed this technique, and I've known a few people who would rock while studying or concentrating very intently; none of these people were on the spectrum.)

 

That said, some parts of the autism community have said that they take a certain amount of comfort from Sherlock's behavior and look upon him as a positive autism role model.  I'd never want to disallow that interpretation of the character, any more than I want to disallow an interpretation of Sherlock as asexual just because I don't think the evidence points there.

 

I just think it's a bit weird to try and apply diagnostic criteria for real people to fictional characters, unless it's for a joke (it can be very funny, especially if you use cartoon characters and such). Sherlock exists in his own world which is similar to ours, but not the same, and follows its own rules.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Actually I think I had never heard before that Autism is usually associated with high IQ or vice versa. From very limited source I read about it (not purposely researching for it) Autism usually associated with talented in art.

 

 

 

Learnt new word today, alexithymia.

Interesting. Is there a quiz to test if we are one? :P

I start to think (not start, already) that normal people are boring.

[Carol the Dabbler]

My son used to think that playing with someone meant playing next to them not necessarily with the same set of toys.

 

And this would be different from a "normal" boy in what way?

 

A gal we know complained that she had made lots of tasty edibles for her son's birthday party, and he had invited all of his friends.  But when they got there, they all just sat at the table, each focusing on their own Game Boy, and now and then groping blindly for food.  She asked him later why they hadn't done something together, and he replied that that wouldn't have been any fun.

[Shadow Dweller]

On 11/3/2015 at 12:09 PM, Van Buren Supernova said:

 

Shadow Dweller said:

Learnt new word today, alexithymia.

Interesting. Is there a quiz to test if we are one?

I start to think (not start, already) that normal people are boring.

Try this one: https://www.alexithymia.us/alexithymia-questionnaire-online-test

Edited December 12, 2019 by Carol the Dabbler
Updated and repaired link

[Van Buren Supernova]

A gal we know complained that she had made lots of tasty edibles for her son's birthday party, and he had invited all of his friends. But when they got there, they all just sat at the table, each focusing on their own Game Boy, and now and then groping blindly for food. She asked him later why they hadn't done something together, and he replied that that wouldn't have been any fun.

Actually, imo, gadgets are getting more disturbing nowadays. Seen many, in restaurant, everyone just get busy with their gadgets instead of communicating with their family/friends on the table. Anti social and introvert as I am, I actually dislike that. Forced social function is one thing, I'd be grateful to sink my head in my phone, but if I decided voluntarily to hang out with family and friends I would respect their presence and engage with them in person.

 

Call me old fashioned, I remember how wonderful it was to get letters in the mailbox, handwritten or actually don't know what friends are up to for a while. I don't need to know what they are doing all the time and vice versa. That is why I have been inactive in social media for years, those who still bother to get in touch are real friends.

 

Try this one Alexithymia Test

I score 121.

High Alexithymia in all area except

some in Restrictive Imaginative Processes and No alexithymia trait in Difficulty to Identify Feeling (means I can identify well but not acting on it?)

 

Oh well, Of course. Of course.

[Shadow Dweller]

Question 4: When other people are hurt or upset, I have difficulty imagining what they are feeling.

 

Define 'imagining'. If that's equal with recognizing it on myself in the same situation then the answer is no. If equals with thinking of 'recognizing those people's reaction' as a way of some sort of intellectual exercise / narrowing down possibilities based on 'technical knowledge' / deducing then the answer is yes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's my main problem with most quizzes -- what do the questions mean?  (And sometimes the questions themselves are wrong!)