Episode 3.1, "The Empty Hearse"

[sittything]

Oh my goodness yes, I love that Mary likes Sherlock and that they just seem to click from the beginning.   It has to be this way, otherwise Mary could tear the boys apart.   It's also nice to have Mary acknowledge what we all know, how fabulous Sherlock is.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

I love the hat deduction-off. I love that Sherlock wins it.

[sfmpco]

I love the interaction between Mycroft and Sherlock as they play various board games while Mycroft is talking about the terror plot.  Both being so completely boyish while at the same time talking about something of national importance.

[T.o.b.y]

I love the hat deduction-off. I love that Sherlock wins it.

 

Does he, though? He might have been right about the wool, but we don't know for sure whether the train guy really was that isolated. He has a girl-friend, after all.

 

I like the train guy. He's obsessed with his trains, and that might appear a bit ridiculous at first, but it's a completely harmless hobby, and in the end, it even proves useful.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

I love the hat deduction-off. I love that Sherlock wins it.

 

Does he, though? He might have been right about the wool, but we don't know for sure whether the train guy really was that isolated. He has a girl-friend, after all.

 

I think that was actually Sherlock's [sneaky] point -- "different" doesn't necessarily mean "isolated," as he tricked Mycroft into stating. So yes, Sherlock won that round.

[Arcadia]

Yup. And for a moment there he really rattled Myc.

[sfmpco]

yes, i like how Sherlock turned that conversation around on Mycroft.  Mycroft insists he isn't lonely, and Sherlock says, "How would you know?"  Well, that flusters the old boy!

[Carol the Dabbler]

... AND gets even with him for that "how would you know" at Buckingham Palace!

 

[sfmpco]

... AND gets even with him for that "how would you know" at Buckingham Palace!

 

 

Oh, good catch!  Mycroft definitely deserves a comeuppance after that BP remark.

[T.o.b.y]

Somehow, I can't help thinking that besides fooling Moriarty, the purpose of "Lazarus" (and probably many, if not all, of the other plans) was to get rid of John for a while. I mean, the "I was afraid you'd let the cat out of the bag" excuse makes very little sense when one considers that about 25 members of the homeless network knew perfectly well what had happened, and I really don't think Sherlock trusts them more than John.

 

But if he was going to go up against Moriarty's entire network, then Sherlock couldn't afford a pressure point, could he. "Alone protects me", so he had to make sure that he'd be alone. After all, the last time John got too involved with anything Moriarty, he ended up in a semtex vest.

 

If this is really the "why" John was asking about, then no wonder he never got a real answer...

[Arcadia]

But if the network thought Sherlock was dead, why would they go after John? And if they knew he was alive, why didn't they go after John? (Feels circuits inside head start to fizz and pop.....)

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've always (well, for the past almost three years) assumed that Sherlock figured Moriarty's people would keep an eye on John if they thought there was the slightest chance that Sherlock had faked his death.  So if Sherlock communicated with John, they'd know it.  If John did not act sufficiently grief-stricken they'd go on the alert for other possible clues.

 

So in my head canon, it's not whether they think he's dead or know he's alive -- it's that they simply do not know.

 

[T.o.b.y]

I still wonder "why?", but maybe it's not that complicated. Sherlock never explains (when does Sherlock ever explain his motivations, that would be pretty out of character), but in a way, the whole episode kind of illustrates the answer.

 

1.) He did not fully understand what harm he was doing. While I do think his behavior at Mycroft's office (from "what life - I've been away" to "I'll surprise John (...) He'll be delighted") is mostly bravado and he's in reality very nervous because deep down inside he knows damn well that it's all far from good, I believe that Sherlock had no idea just how deeply John would be affected. Sherlock may not be a true sociopath, but he's genuinely a bit out of touch with "ordinary" human beings and there are a lot of things about human nature that he really truly does not grasp. Also, judging by how he reacted in The Sign of Three to being asked to be best man, Sherlock had no idea he was John's best friend.

 

2.) He was trying to protect his friends. Mycroft had to keep an eye out for John the whole time, so it makes sense that Carol is probably right, John was most likely still in danger from Moriarty's people, and if they had gotten so much as a hint that John knew Sherlock wasn't dead, they'd have tried to get Sherlock's location out of him at the very least, and I doubt their methods of obtaining information are very pleasant. Since 25 members of the homeless network knew the secret, plus Molly plus Mycroft plus the Holmes parents, the primary goal cannot have been complete secrecy, but keeping John out of trouble. What else was that fire scene for other than to remind us (and prove Magnussen's theory) that John is Sherlock's pressure point. He literally walks through fire to save him, so of course he'd play dead to him for two years as well, if that was what it took to get Moriarty's organization off his back.

 

 

I still suspect getting rid of John was originally Mycroft's idea. I doubt he ever outright said "look, brother, it you're going to do this, you really can't afford such a weakness as friends", but I bet that's what he thought.

 

If my theories are correct, no wonder Sherlock never explained. John would be offended as hell. "I went to war, for god's sake, you think I can't take care of myself?" - something like that. Poor John.

 

I love how John doesn't act the slightest bit grateful that Sherlock pulled him out of the bonfire. First of all, it was probably a blow to his ego - "another guy had to get me out" - and secondly, he immediately connects that occurrence with Sherlock, as if it was almost his fault, à la "typical, as soon as you're back in the country, I get kidnapped. Now you'd better figure out fast who it was and get them arrested, because I am fed up with you as it is!"

 

Sherlock should try rescuing Molly from something the next time. I bet he'd get a much more affectionate response. I wonder whether he'd like that, though.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

It would be interesting to see Sherlock's response after he rescued Molly and she thanked him.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... Carol is probably right, John was most likely still in danger from Moriarty's people, and if they had gotten so much as a hint that John knew Sherlock wasn't dead, they'd have tried to get Sherlock's location out of him at the very least, and I doubt their methods of obtaining information are very pleasant. Since 25 members of the homeless network knew the secret, plus Molly plus Mycroft plus the Holmes parents, the primary goal cannot have been complete secrecy, but keeping John out of trouble....

Your entire post is excellent, T.o.b.y -- I would say "especially the part where you agree with me," but even there you're going me one better. I had thought the matter through only as far as why Moriarty's people would be keeping an eye on John. It had not occurred to me to wonder why Sherlock would object to that, since general principles seemed a perfectly adequate reason. But I'll bet you're right -- Sherlock wasn't just protecting his own secret from Moriarty's gang, he was also protecting John. (Not that John would've appreciated knowing that -- your likely scenario is rings absolutely true.)

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

Sherlock should try rescuing Molly from something the next time. I bet he'd get a much more affectionate response. I wonder whether he'd like that, though.

It would be interesting to see Sherlock's response after he rescued Molly and she thanked him.

 

Ehh, I don't think it'd be that affectionate, and if this hypothetical scene were, I'm sure it'd be something like this

 

 

but with Molly in the place of John.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

Sherlock should try rescuing Molly from something the next time. I bet he'd get a much more affectionate response. I wonder whether he'd like that, though.

It would be interesting to see Sherlock's response after he rescued Molly and she thanked him.

Ehh, I don't think it'd be that affectionate, and if this hypothetical scene were, I'm sure it'd be something like this

 

 

but with Molly in the place of John.

More than likely. I'd also expect a look from Sherlock similar to what he gave Archie after showing him the picture of the eye with maggots in it.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Yes that last frame.

[Arcadia]

I've always (well, for the past almost three years) assumed that Sherlock figured Moriarty's people would keep an eye on John if they thought there was the slightest chance that Sherlock had faked his death.  So if Sherlock communicated with John, they'd know it.  If John did not act sufficiently grief-stricken they'd go on the alert for other possible clues.

 

So in my head canon, it's not whether they think he's dead or know he's alive -- it's that they simply do not know.

Huh. I guess I'm just not very suspicious (or insightful :P ) but it never occurred to me to think that anyone would suspect Sherlock was anything but dead ... otherwise his whole charade seems a bit pointless. But what you say also makes sense. I suppose Anderson couldn't have been the only one who eventually noticed the presence of a Sherlockian figure showing up and solving crimes in Europe.... (and I still think Sherlock was having the time of his life during the hiatus....)

 

I still suspect getting rid of John was originally Mycroft's idea. I doubt he ever outright said "look, brother, it you're going to do this, you really can't afford such a weakness as friends", but I bet that's what he thought.

I like this. Sherlock even started to say something was "Mycroft's idea" and I always kind of wondered where he was going with that (other than just trying to shift blame... ) I wouldn't even doubt Mycroft said something like what you suggest, Sherlock would've seen the logic in it. And I agree, for various reasons Sherlock didn't really comprehend the extent of the pain John would feel. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say he didn't understand why such feelings would matter so much.

 

Sherlock should try rescuing Molly from something the next time. I bet he'd get a much more affectionate response. I wonder whether he'd like that, though.

I'd like to see that, actually. I'm already laughing just thinking about it.

[sfmpco]

"Neat, don't you think?" Sherlock says to Anderson... and then he winks with his right eye.  

 

What is it he says in Many Happy Returns? "Shall I um..smile and wink?  I do that sometimes.  I've no idea why.  People seem to like it...humanizes me."

 

[sfmpco]

 

 

Sherlock should try rescuing Molly from something the next time. I bet he'd get a much more affectionate response. I wonder whether he'd like that, though.

It would be interesting to see Sherlock's response after he rescued Molly and she thanked him.

 

Ehh, I don't think it'd be that affectionate, and if this hypothetical scene were, I'm sure it'd be something like this

 

 

but with Molly in the place of John.

 

 

I've heard a rumor that this was actually Martin getting a little emotional about the scene they were working on... the fall.  Ben apparently got very emotional about it on the roof.

[sfmpco]

"Weddings, not really my thing." And he winks at Mary.  Maybe we should count the winks in this episode.

[sfmpco]

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

 

 

Sherlock should try rescuing Molly from something the next time. I bet he'd get a much more affectionate response. I wonder whether he'd like that, though.

It would be interesting to see Sherlock's response after he rescued Molly and she thanked him.

 

Ehh, I don't think it'd be that affectionate, and if this hypothetical scene were, I'm sure it'd be something like this

 

 

but with Molly in the place of John.

 

 

I've heard a rumor that this was actually Martin getting a little emotional about the scene they were working on... the fall.  Ben apparently got very emotional about it on the roof.

 

 

That picture looks photoshopped to me -- have a look at Sherlock's right hand.