Episode 3.2, "The Sign of Three"

[sfmpco]

Or was he... after all, Anderson's version of the roof jump wasn't exactly accurate.

[T.o.b.y]

Personally, I would like to see a mainstream series with a charismatic leading man who was gay but whose sexuality was not the focus of the story

 

Oh, how I would too. So much. It wouldn't have to be a man, for me - woman would be just as good. Just a gay main character in a show that is not about being gay.

 

Good point - I do like Jack. However, Sherlock's audience is presumably greater and includes rather more conservative sections of society. Also, he's a pretty iconic figure. I can imagine the uproar iif the BBC decided it was going to make such a revered literary character gay - or even bisexual.

 

Sadly, so can I... And it sucks, to speak plainly. As if it were an insult. As if it were even such a big deal. Sherlock Holmes isn't about having sex, we'd never actually have to see him in bed with anybody, it'd just be a detail.

 

I have to admit, though, that I can't exactly picture a gay Sherlock Holmes either, mainly because I just can't picture Sherlock Holmes having sex with anybody, male or female. It's just so contrary to his characterization. I can just barely imagine BBCs Sherlock fumbling around with BBCs Irene, but that is as far as it goes.

 

 

I don't think marriage necessarily means you aren't gay.

 

Oh no, it certainly doesn't. I know a gay man who is still married to the mother of their four children.

 

Being married proved exactly jack squat in original!Holmes's times. I mean, Oscar Wilde was married and had three kids, so that proves he was straight as an arrow and it was all a simple misunderstanding with the law, right?

 

Actually, in the 1890s, if I were gay, I'd have seen to it to get myself some kind of alibi partner to avoid suspicion and trouble. Besides, marriage was not always about love back then. It wasn't even always about having legal sex. There were often practical, financial, even political considerations at work.

 

I don't know why sexual orientation has to be so important. It's such a private subject. Why should the world at large care who somebody sleeps with? Being gay isn't much more significant than being left-handed, if you ask me.

[Slithytove]

Anderson was much closer to the truth than Lestrade, John or any of Sherlock's other friends (except those in the know, of course) or other employees of the Met. A nice touch, considering how many times Sherlock had railed against his supposed stupidity.

 

Oscar Wilde got off lightly? But prison broke him and he died soon afterwards, only 46 years old. He was warned against prosecuting Queensberry but seems to have felt he had no choice, given that the Marquess had, in effect, made a public accusation against him. Presumably he underestimated the other side. Poor old Oscar - another genius destroyed.

[T.o.b.y]

Gently easing my way back to the episode... Isn't it funny and kind of touching how Sherlock gets "assigned" the job of best friend and doesn't really quite know how to be one? The scene where Mary maneuvers the two men out of the house to "run them", for example: Even John seems to find it a bit odd calling Sherlock "mate" at first (he seems to get used to it later, though). And then he tries to play the "boys do boy things together and fussing about lilac dresses and cakes and so on is girl stuff" card, and Sherlock takes for ever to understand what he is getting at. I just love how Sherlock, no matter how much he grows up, is still pretty clueless about social norms and expectations.

 

By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion that John didn't have to fake much in imploring Sherlock to pick a case and get him away from the wedding preparations for a while. Even before Mary brought up "Beth", he was sitting apart, scrolling through potential cases, while Sherlock and Mary were wedding planning.

[Arcadia]

I'm pretty sure John calls him "mate" in earlier episodes, though. I say that because I remember being mildly surprised to hear him say it, since TSo3 implies it's the first time he's done so. Can't be sure without (horrors!) sitting down and watching them again..... but the most recent thing I saw was ASiB, I wouldn't be surprised if it's there.

 

I'm with John, I can't imagine anything more boring than wedding planning! Well, I can, but not too many things.

[Slithytove]

Gently easing my way back to the episode... Isn't it funny and kind of touching how Sherlock gets "assigned" the job of best friend and doesn't really quite know how to be one? The scene where Mary maneuvers the two men out of the house to "run them", for example: Even John seems to find it a bit odd calling Sherlock "mate" at first (he seems to get used to it later, though). And then he tries to play the "boys do boy things together and fussing about lilac dresses and cakes and so on is girl stuff" card, and Sherlock takes for ever to understand what he is getting at. I just love how Sherlock, no matter how much he grows up, is still pretty clueless about social norms and expectations.

 

By the way, I have a sneaking suspicion that John didn't have to fake much in imploring Sherlock to pick a case and get him away from the wedding preparations for a while. Even before Mary brought up "Beth", he was sitting apart, scrolling through potential cases, while Sherlock and Mary were wedding planning.

Sherlock is perhaps at his most childlike in this episode, and it is a side of his personality I find very endearing. It does diverge fairly sharply from canon, as I would say ACD's Holmes is very much a grown man whereas Sherlock allows us glimpses of the inner child. I'm thinking particularly of the scenes you mention, and also his moments of bewilderment during the wedding speech. ("Did I do it wrong?"). There are also moments during his interactions with Mycroft where he seems more like a child than a man - and evidently he still pictures himself, in his Mind Palace, as a little boy dealing with an adult brother.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm pretty sure John calls him "mate" in earlier episodes, though. I say that because I remember being mildly surprised to hear him say it, since TSo3 implies it's the first time he's done so. Can't be sure without (horrors!) sitting down and watching them again..... but the most recent thing I saw was ASiB, I wouldn't be surprised if it's there.

 

 

I finally did a search, and (according to Ariane DeVere's transcripts and my browser's search function), we've heard John use the word "mate" five times so far:

 

"Hounds" -- Talking to Henry at Dewar's Hollow toward the end

"Reichenbach" -- To Sherlock at the grave ("...one more thing, mate, one more thing: one more miracle....")

"Sign of Three" -- First, when he's trying to get Sherlock to take a case, and

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Second, when he says "You're overlooking the obvious, mate."  ("He's a man.")

"His Last Vow" -- Talking to Isaac Whitney in the drug den

 

So the only two times we've heard John address Sherlock as "mate" when he knows Sherlock can hear him are indeed in "Sign of Three."  But I've apparently missed the implication you mentioned in "Sign" -- could you clue me in?

[Arcadia]

 

I'm pretty sure John calls him "mate" in earlier episodes, though. I say that because I remember being mildly surprised to hear him say it, since TSo3 implies it's the first time he's done so. Can't be sure without (horrors!) sitting down and watching them again..... but the most recent thing I saw was ASiB, I wouldn't be surprised if it's there.

 

 

I finally did a search, and (according to Ariane DeVere's transcripts and my browser's search function), we've heard John use the word "mate" five times so far:

 

"Hounds" -- Talking to Henry at Dewar's Hollow toward the end

"Reichenbach" -- To Sherlock at the grave ("...one more thing, mate, one more thing: one more miracle....")

"Sign of Three" -- First, when he's trying to get Sherlock to take a case, and

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Second, when he says "You're overlooking the obvious, mate."  ("He's a man.")

"His Last Vow" -- Talking to Isaac Whitney in the drug den

 

So the only two times we've heard John address Sherlock as "mate" when he knows Sherlock can hear him are indeed in "Sign of Three."  But I've apparently missed the implication you mentioned in "Sign" -- could you clue me in?

 

Hmmm, you've probably found them then, it's just a dim memory, from a rather dim person to begin with. So you're saying John never used "mate" directly to Sherlock before TSo3? His expression there would make more sense in that case. When I watch Scandal again I'll try to pay attention, but that may not be for awhile.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Nope, not even in the pilot.  The instances I listed do seem to be it.

 

I take it then that you interpret his hesitation and odd facial expression (in the "take a case" scene) to mean that he's not quite comfortable using the word under the circumstances?  I've always thought that he was feeling a bit off balance from seeing Sherlock surrounded by a couple dozen elaborately folded table napkins:

 

SHERLOCK: That just sort of ... happened.
(He looks round at John again, who frowns but then smiles. Glancing back into the kitchen for a moment, he walks towards his friend.)
JOHN: Sherlock, um ...
(Sherlock stands up.)
JOHN: ... mate ...
(Again he frowns briefly....)
JOHN: I-I’ve ...
 

But then again, perhaps he still felt bad (even a bit guilty?) that Sherlock hadn't realized he was John's best friend, and was trying to reinforce that idea.  It's an awkward moment, no matter how you slice it.

 

[Arcadia]

Yes, the first one you said. That is ... it's Mary, not John, who thinks Sherlock needs some reassuring. So she shoves John out to deal with it, and he does his best to BE all best-friendsy, but then thinks he may have overdone the chumminess a bit with the "mate". That's how I saw it, anyhoo.

[Arcadia]

Hm, another thought on that same scene .... Sherlock's manipulated John a lot. But is this scene the first and only time we see John manipulate Sherlock? Hm. Unless maybe you count the time he walked away in HOB after Sherlock tried to apologize.

 

And is this a good thing or a bad thing?

[T.o.b.y]

I take it then that you interpret his hesitation and odd facial expression (in the "take a case" scene) to mean that he's not quite comfortable using the word under the circumstances?

Mhm, well, yes, sort of like that. Well, first of all, he's not quite comfortable because he has to put on an act, and John is a rotten liar, and besides, he's probably nervous because he can't imagine Sherlock will not see through him and Mary and "Beth". Then, the serviettes throw him off, of course.

 

Maybe it's just me, but independently of all that, I would have stumbled over the word "mate" even if John hadn't. Sherlock just isn't a "mate" kind of guy. Maybe I've got the word wrong (I am not British and I did not learn British English), but isn't "mate" kind of like "dude" or "bro"? It implies a very manly, back-slapping, beer-bonding kind of buddyism, doesn't it?

 

I have no idea what I'd call John and Sherlock's relationship, but "mates" doesn't really fit the bill, if you ask me. It's a bit hard to lay a finger on it. They're just John and Sherlock. When John gets married, however, he seems to feel it's the right time to sort that bond out as well, and so Sherlock gets "assigned" best friend. Which is the best and most fitting option, of course. But it's still a little forced. And it seems that they wrote the scene so that John realizes that. 

 

In a way, I see the whole episode as John saying, in essence, listen Sherlock, I'm getting married, but there is absolutely no reason for you to get upset about this, because Mary is my wife and you are my best friend, and those are completely different things, and you're both equally important (well, not quite, maybe, but lets not go there) and we two will still go off and do boy-things together and it will be so much fun. Or something like that. And Sherlock is sad for some reason he can't quite put his finger on, but he's also hugely flattered and a little bewildered by his new "job", and he tries ludicrously hard to "do it right", to the point where he even tries to go out drinking with John, an evening which, by the way, fails miserably. (The stag night kind of sums up how "mate" is just not the most adequate term for Sherlock, if you ask me).

 

Note that by the time His Last Vow comes along, they're pretty much back to normal, which, in Sherlock's case, is not normal. It's as if Sherlock tried out being a regular human being in The Sign of Three, found it doesn't work for him, and then went oh screw this, I'm going to get high and take on the most dangerous man in England.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh I suppose I should really leave this alone but what the heck. In for a penny in for a pound, as the old saying goes.

 

In Victorian England, by law in some cases, being gay carried the death sentence. So yes Mr Wild did get off rather lightly. His punishment could have been far worse than a prison term. From what has been written, even though he was married with children, every one knew he was gay it was an" open secret". There really was no reason for him to put himself at such risk except maybe from a sense of over weaning ego?

 

As for John and Sherlock society is so open and far more accepting now I don't get why John would feel the need to deny it if he really was. But I know that is just me because people do struggle with it. Unless this is another instance of Victorianization?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe it's just me, but independently of all that, I would have stumbled over the word "mate" even if John hadn't. Sherlock just isn't a "mate" kind of guy. Maybe I've got the word wrong (I am not British and I did not learn British English), but isn't "mate" kind of like "dude" or "bro"? It implies a very manly, back-slapping, beer-bonding kind of buddyism, doesn't it?

 

I have no idea what I'd call John and Sherlock's relationship, but "mates" doesn't really fit the bill, if you ask me. It's a bit hard to lay a finger on it. They're just John and Sherlock. When John gets married, however, he seems to feel it's the right time to sort that bond out as well, and so Sherlock gets "assigned" best friend. Which is the best and most fitting option, of course. But it's still a little forced. And it seems that they wrote the scene so that John realizes that. <snip> (The stag night kind of sums up how "mate" is just not the most adequate term for Sherlock, if you ask me).

 

I think that's a very sound analysis, T.o.b.y.  I'm not British either, but I believe you're right about the connotations of "mate," which could also explain why John has previously used the word on Henry and Isaac, but none of his actual friends.  In fact, maybe it's actually John who isn't a "mate" kinda guy, since it seems he uses the word more to express concern than as a natural, casual term of friendship.  It seems to be part of his "therapeutic" vocabulary.

 

[jesskayding]

I'm pretty sure John calls him "mate" in earlier episodes, though. I say that because I remember being mildly surprised to hear him say it, since TSo3 implies it's the first time he's done so. Can't be sure without (horrors!) sitting down and watching them again..... but the most recent thing I saw was ASiB, I wouldn't be surprised if it's there.

 

I'm with John, I can't imagine anything more boring than wedding planning! Well, I can, but not too many things.

Weddings... Not really my area.

[Slithytove]

Oh I suppose I should really leave this alone but what the heck. In for a penny in for a pound, as the old saying goes.

 

In Victorian England, by law in some cases, being gay carried the death sentence. So yes Mr Wild did get off rather lightly. His punishment could have been far worse than a prison term. From what has been written, even though he was married with children, every one knew he was gay it was an" open secret". There really was no reason for him to put himself at such risk except maybe from a sense of over weaning ego?

 

As for John and Sherlock society is so open and far more accepting now I don't get why John would feel the need to deny it if he really was. But I know that is just me because people do struggle with it. Unless this is another instance of Victorianization?

Not to be pedantic, but the death penalty for sodomy was abolished in England in 1861. Oscar's trial was in 1895. His conviction destroyed his good name, exposed him to public abuse and ridicule, ruined his health and sent him to an early grave. Quite a harsh punishment for being gay.

 

Somehow I doubt that he sued Queensberry just for the hell of it. It was a terrible error of judgement, and it is hard to understand how he imagined he could win, but presumably he felt he had to do it in response to Queensberry's public accusation.

 

Happily, we do live in more tolerant times (but let the BBC make a Johnlock episode of "Sherlock", and watch the queerbashers crawl out of the woodwork.....) However, there could be many reasons why John might be attracted to Sherlock but might assert that he is not gay.

 

For a start, it can still be a difficult world for minorities. Maybe his sister Harry faced rejection and/or hostility because of her sexual orientation. Maybe that contributed to her alcohol and relationship problems. Maybe Mum & Dad Watson didn't react well to their daughter being a lesbian. Maybe they wouldn't be happy if their son came out too.

 

It can be particularly difficult for men in very macho groups to come out - for instance, how would his ex-army pals react if he declared he was gay? Would they be supportive? Hostile? Mocking? Maybe that is a factor.

 

Maybe, as many Johnlock shippers have pointed out, he is saying he is not gay but is omitting to say he is bisexual.

 

Or maybe he is 99.9 per cent straight but he has fallen in love with Sherlock because he's brilliant and drop-dead gorgeous. I've known more than one straight man, for instance, who has said he'd consider making an exception for David Beckham, particularly when he was captain of the England team (rich, handsome, famous and had the job most Englishmen covet. )

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Ahh.....okay I stand corrected on the death penalty error. I do admit that it can still be tough to come out...but being in a alternate universe it could be different after all, Mrs. Turner has married ones.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Happily, we do live in more tolerant times (but let the BBC make a Johnlock episode of "Sherlock", and watch the queerbashers crawl out of the woodwork.....) However, there could be many reasons why John might be attracted to Sherlock but might assert that he is not gay.

 

For a start, it can still be a difficult world for minorities. Maybe his sister Harry faced rejection and/or hostility because of her sexual orientation. Maybe that contributed to her alcohol and relationship problems. Maybe Mum & Dad Watson didn't react well to their daughter being a lesbian. Maybe they wouldn't be happy if their son came out too.

 

It can be particularly difficult for men in very macho groups to come out - for instance, how would his ex-army pals react if he declared he was gay? Would they be supportive? Hostile? Mocking? Maybe that is a factor.

 

Oh-h-h, I have a whole theory inside my crazy aging brain about John, Harry, alcohol, homophobia and them growing up in the days when things were still very different even from today's imperfect acceptance of same-sex attraction...

 

I don't think John is gay. I don't think he's attracted to Sherlock either, not sexually, any way. I do think John has a bit of a problem with the whole subject, though, which, as you say, could very well have something to do with either his sister, his parents, his generation, the military, or all of the above. He's not homophobic; I think it's honestly "all fine" for him, but only as long as it's about other people. He can't shrug off wrong assumptions about him and Sherlock the way Sherlock does, who genuinely doesn't seem to give a hoot.

 

Poor John. But now he has a wife and a wedding ring, and that should shut people up for a while. Or so I think he hopes... Not that I'm accusing him of getting married for that reason, but I do think he considers it a nice benefit of the whole affair.

[Slithytove]

Ahh.....okay I stand corrected on the death penalty error. I do admit that it can still be tough to come out...but being in a alternate universe it could be different after all, Mrs. Turner has married ones.

Mrs Hudson is certainly very broad minded - maybe because of her own colourful past? - so maybe her friend Mrs Turner is a kindred spirit.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Nothing wrong in being broad minded nor having kindred spirits. May we gain more of them every day.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Mrs. Hudson is an odd duck.

 

The first time we see her in "Study in Pink," she says, "There's all kinds round here -- Mrs. Turner next door's got married ones," with the italicized part spoken in a whisper, implying to me that she's a bit embarrassed by the subject, possibly by sex in general.

 

Then in "The Empty Hearse" she basically insists that John is gay, and won't take his word to the contrary (and it's apparently not the first time she's done that, judging by his reaction).

 

My best guess is that she really is a bit embarrassed by the subject (due to her generation's attitude), but is trying so hard to be understanding that she's likely to understand things even when they may not be there.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

At least she is trying. Being of her generation, it would be rather hard to accept the kinds of transitions that are going on. But by George and bless her, embarrassed or not, she's willing to take it on.

 

Also it has been speculated that she was actually a bit jealous of Mrs. Turner and her married ones and wanted some of her own and that's why she was so determined to believe that John and Sherlock should be a couple.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Aww, that's sweet, in a way.  Too bad for her that John doesn't see it that way!

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yup, Mrs. Hudson was whispering because she didn't want Mrs. Turner to know that she had finally gotten her own. It really was to bad to have her bubble popped.

[jesskayding]

We are Soooooo off topic... I believe we stopped @ Sherlock being surprised to be Johns best man! Their reactions to it & John calling Sherlock mate - directly - for the 1st time in TSO3. ok - Action!