Episode 3.2, "The Sign of Three"

[Carol the Dabbler]

Who knows, indeed.  But I will point out that Sherlock has been known to -- ahh -- stretch the truth.  So I don't feel entirely sure of him right now either.

 

In fact, that may be my main complaint about the show at this point -- I feel that I've lost all certainty of what's really going on and who can be trusted.  Well, except for John.  And Dr. Watson has always been the one certainty in the Sherlock Holmes universe -- so if it ever turns out that John can't be trusted, I don't see how they could keep calling the program Sherlock.

 

I suppose some people (presumably including Moftiss) think this makes the show exciting, and perhaps it does, but I don't watch television and movies for excitement per se.  I can't really invest in a show unless I feel a rapport with at least one of the main characters.

 

[Arcadia]

I think they think it makes it clever. (Or that it makes themselves clever, perhaps.) I like clever, quite a lot. But too much of anything is ... too much. I'm ready for some straightforward answers for a change. Come clean on at least a few story threads, then keep twisting the rest if they like. Otherwise, it just gets too tiring to try to keep up with all the ... well, lies.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Well that is what I can't get my head around.  If there was shared adoration, genuine like and closeness, how could she shoot him?  Just If I had genuine feelings of affection and love for someone I could not shoot them to save my own skin, even if I was reasonably hopeful they wouldn't die because I called an ambulance. 

 

 

Mhm, neither could I. But a lot of the Sherlock characters defy the conventions of storytelling and romance by not letting love hinder them from doing terrible things to the object of their affections. I really like that, for some reason. It's - original. A bit psychopathic. And intriguing.

 

One of these days, I might write a very long pointless ramble about love in Sherlock versus love in all the other films, series and books I have loved to date.

 

 

All I can say is what's on the screen.  "Tell Mary she's safe now."  That's what he said to John after shooting CAM.  He hugged her at the end and made her promise to keep John "in trouble."  Now, of course, there are multiple layers to his shooting CAM, not the least of which was that if he didn't kill him, he would  then also be owned and controlled by CAM, and that would never be acceptable, but he freed Mary AND John although he only mentioned "tell Mary she's safe now."

 

Well, Sherlock hardly needed to tell John that about himself. He was standing right next to him. But it wasn't concern for Mary that brought Sherlock back to life.

 

If they meant to imply that Sherlock adores Mary so very much, I'd have expected them to portray her very differently inside his mind palace.

 

My personal theory about Sherlock and Mary is that he had no choice from the very beginning but to like her. He couldn't afford not to. He wanted and needed to get attached to her. 'Course it could have been much harder. She is funny and clever and extraordinary, and she understands Sherlock pretty well (but not too well - I think she underestimates him in many ways). If she had come to him as an independent client or if he had met her some other way, they might have struck up quite a friendship. But as it is, I think there is something... forced or strange or somehow "off" about their relationship. And then inside his mind, she's only shown as a killer, a liar and a security risk. I don't see an ounce of love there, where all Sherlock's forces of reason and restraint are shut down and we see him floating around in his consciousness.

 

I have a feeling that was not what the show intends. I think I'm supposed to see a much more positive relationship and that you "got it right". But if that was the intention, it failed to work for me.

 

 

In fact, that may be my main complaint about the show at this point -- I feel that I've lost all certainty of what's really going on and who can be trusted.  Well, except for John.  And Dr. Watson has always been the one certainty in the Sherlock Holmes universe -- so if it ever turns out that John can't be trusted, I don't see how they could keep calling the program Sherlock.

 

I suppose some people (presumably including Moftiss) think this makes the show exciting, and perhaps it does, but I don't watch television and movies for excitement per se.  I can't really invest in a show unless I feel a rapport with at least one of the main characters.

 

Amen, Carol. I really need a few "fixed points" for Sherlock in particular, things where I just tell myself that I am sure he was / is sincere about. I like Sherlock's mysteriousness up to a certain point. But only up to that.

[Arcadia]

Well, there's a few things...  I think it's safe to say that he's sincere in his love for John, at least. And his affection for Mrs. Hudson. His loathing for CAM (even if some of us don't actually think it makes sense :-)  Lessee..... His kindness towards Molly I'm fairly certain was sincere, and the trust he places in Lestrade. All of these are emotional things, aren't they? Interesting .... Ummmm.... now I'm drawing a blank.

 

[sherlockandjohn]

All I can say is what's on the screen.  "Tell Mary she's safe now."  That's what he said to John after shooting CAM.  He hugged her at the end and made her promise to keep John "in trouble."  Now, of course, there are multiple layers to his shooting CAM, not the least of which was that if he didn't kill him, he would  then also be owned and controlled by CAM, and that would never be acceptable, but he freed Mary AND John although he only mentioned "tell Mary she's safe now."  He put his own life and personal freedom on the line for Mary because he has so much affection for her.  What will be interesting is in Series 4 if she feels she has a debt to repay to him for that.  Will her skill set be called upon?  Because Sherlock just bought her loyalty.

 

Hm, that's interesting. I always thought (and still do) that Sherlock is really doing all of this for John. Mary is mainly in the equation because she is John's wife. Certainly, Sherlock cares about her, but would he have given up his future for her if she had "just" been Mary Morstan, not Mary Watson? I don't think so, but of course that's just my guess. Sherlock is certainly capable of that kind of sacrifice, but I'm inclined to think he doesn't love Mary enough for that.

[sherlockandjohn]

I've finally gone back to naming TSoT my favorite s3 episode, although all three s3 episodes are very close in my ranking. But this is incredibly heartwarming, funny, intelligent, and with just that pinch of sadness that tugs at my heart strings. The episode very much feels like a celebration of the bond between John and Sherlock.

[sfmpco]

I agree in that I also have a hard time choosing between the Series 3 episodes.  There is stuff in each one that I watch over and over.  I've studies HLV the most because of the fanfic I wrote but wow, very hard to choose.

[Arcadia]

Absolutely it's for John. Look at that look he gives John just before he takes the gun. I think he loves Mary in his way, but if she were to go 'poof!' tomorrow I don't think it would affect him much.

 

Would he sacrifice himself for any of his other friends besides John? Lestrade, Mrs. Hudson, Molly? Hm. Does he even realize they are also his friends? Would he miss them if they were gone? Ooooo .... would he sacrifice himself for Mycroft? I suspect yes, but the others, I jus' dunno........

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I definitely think he would sacrifice for Mrs. Hudson......calling the police before he starts dumping people out windows....if it had been any other Yarder but Lestrade....Sherlock might have found himself in some really hot water. I think he might go the extra mile for Lestrade....they seem very close. Molly?  Well....I guess that would depend on how much he truly did see and trust her. How much she really did count.

[sfmpco]

I think if someone came after any of the people he trusted or cared about, he would take action... even Mycroft.  I include Mycroft because even though there is bad blood, it's still blood, and Sherlock would step in.  But what in the world could ever happen to Mycroft in that safe little bubble he lives in?  Nothing.  Mycroft "flirts" with the dragons (Moriarty, Irene, Magnussen) and leaves Sherlock to slay them.  

 

Molly is still also in a little protected bubble as well, but if anything truly happened to her, he'd be on it like white on rice.  

 

I think he cares deeply, just can't afford to show it except for brief moments on rare occasions.  Otherwise it leaves him vulnerable, and he finds greater safety in being able to be detatched and let cold, hard reasoning be his guiding force.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I think he cares deeply, just can't afford to show it except for brief moments on rare occasions.  Otherwise it leaves him vulnerable, and he finds greater safety in being able to be detatched and let cold, hard reasoning be his guiding force.

 

  Totally agree. As "HLV" bares witness to, for what ever reason, if Sherlock allows his heart to rule his head, all reason and logic falls by the way side.

[sfmpco]

 

 

I think he cares deeply, just can't afford to show it except for brief moments on rare occasions.  Otherwise it leaves him vulnerable, and he finds greater safety in being able to be detatched and let cold, hard reasoning be his guiding force.

 

  Totally agree. As "HLV" bares witness to, for what ever reason, if Sherlock allows his heart to rule his head, all reason and logic falls by the way side.

 

 

And add a little morphine in the mix... and it's a recipe for bad decision making.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yup, not a good thing in any stretch.

[sherlockandjohn]

Absolutely it's for John. Look at that look he gives John just before he takes the gun. I think he loves Mary in his way, but if she were to go 'poof!' tomorrow I don't think it would affect him much.

 

Would he sacrifice himself for any of his other friends besides John? Lestrade, Mrs. Hudson, Molly? Hm. Does he even realize they are also his friends? Would he miss them if they were gone? Ooooo .... would he sacrifice himself for Mycroft? I suspect yes, but the others, I jus' dunno........

 

Agreed on the first point.

 

Would he make a similar sacrifice for the others? I can venture a guess... Mrs. Hudson; yes. Lestrade; maybe. Molly; I think so. Mycroft; .... mmmh, I think he'd leave it to the government to help him out, and if they wouldn't, he'd go "behind the scenes", so to speak, and find some way of helping him without him knowing. Hey, that would make for a good fanfic story! Or a good scene on screen

 

I really don't think he would ditch any of them; he'd try to help, but he might not have put himself in that position (trying to make a deal with Magnussen) for all of them. Especially not if he thought they could get help elsewhere. Mary had no one else to protect her. She was a criminal, and would have been condemned by any authorities.

[sfmpco]

Okay, here's a question just for clarification - Molly remarks of Sherlock in this episode - "You're a graduate chemist..." Now, is she referring to him having a 4-yr university degree in chemistry or an advanced chemistry degree, what we in the USA would call a Masters degree - and he would have a MS or "Master of Science in Chemistry" degree.  The Brits have a slightly different way of naming things in their school system.

[sfmpco]

Okay, here's a question just for clarification - Molly remarks of Sherlock in this episode - "You're a graduate chemist..." Now, is she referring to him having a 4-yr university degree in chemistry or an advanced chemistry degree, what we in the USA would call a Masters degree - and he would have a MS or "Master of Science in Chemistry" degree.  The Brits have a slightly different way of naming things in their school system.

 

So does no one know the answer to this?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, I checked my British dictionary, but it won't admit that "graduate" can be an adjective.

 

Now I'm checking Oxford Dictionaries Online -- and the specific definition that seems to be the best fit is this: "Having graduated from a school or academic program: a graduate electrical engineer."  That part is not marked as American (as some parts are), so apparently it's British usage as well.  It seems that all we can infer is that Sherlock has some sort of degree in chemistry -- so at least a bachelor's.

 

Hopefully our British members will either confirm or correct this.

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Absolutely it's for John. Look at that look he gives John just before he takes the gun. I think he loves Mary in his way, but if she were to go 'poof!' tomorrow I don't think it would affect him much.

 

Especially after Sherlock's extremely heartwarming speech. God, it was an emotional wedding. Even the cake was in tiers.

[Arcadia]

Aaarghghgh!!!!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm sorely tempted to move that into the Bad Puns thread! 

 

[jesskayding]

I think if someone came after any of the people he trusted or cared about, he would take action... even Mycroft. I include Mycroft because even though there is bad blood, it's still blood, and Sherlock would step in. But what in the world could ever happen to Mycroft in that safe little bubble he lives in? Nothing. Mycroft "flirts" with the dragons (Moriarty, Irene, Magnussen) and leaves Sherlock to slay them.

 

Molly is still also in a little protected bubble as well, but if anything truly happened to her, he'd be on it like white on rice.

 

I think he cares deeply, just can't afford to show it except for brief moments on rare occasions. Otherwise it leaves him vulnerable, and he finds greater safety in being able to be detatched and let cold, hard reasoning be his guiding force.

Although it truly is hard to tell what goes on in that funny little head of his. With Molly, sometimes I question his sincerity. Is he using her because he knows how much she loves him... Even obsesses over him. I've paused the DVD during SO3 & the look of dispair Molly is giving while Sherlock is taking pictures with Janine.

 

Poor Molly. I don't know if there's anything worse than unrequited love.

 

[jesskayding]

 

 

Okay, here's a question just for clarification - Molly remarks of Sherlock in this episode - "You're a graduate chemist..." Now, is she referring to him having a 4-yr university degree in chemistry or an advanced chemistry degree, what we in the USA would call a Masters degree - and he would have a MS or "Master of Science in Chemistry" degree. The Brits have a slightly different way of naming things in their school system.

So does no one know the answer to this?

 

I certainly don't know.

[jesskayding]

 

 

Absolutely it's for John. Look at that look he gives John just before he takes the gun. I think he loves Mary in his way, but if she were to go 'poof!' tomorrow I don't think it would affect him much.

Especially after Sherlock's extremely heartwarming speech. God, it was an emotional wedding. Even the cake was in tiers.

 

Uhm. Excuse me Beny. But I believe you started a topic where you keep your bad puns.

[T.o.b.y]

Although it truly is hard to tell what goes on in that funny little head of his. With Molly, sometimes I question his sincerity. Is he using her because he knows how much she loves him... Even obsesses over him. I've paused the DVD during SO3 & the look of dispair Molly is giving while Sherlock is taking pictures with Janine.

 

Poor women. I don't know if there's anything worse than unrequited love.

 

It's totally worth it to tear your attention away from the boys in The Sign of Three for one viewing and focus on Molly. She has her own little story going on in the background with Tom, Lestrade and her sympathy for Sherlock, and if you follow that, you practically know even before His Last Vow that her engagement will soon be over.

 

I wouldn't say Molly's love is totally unrequited at this point. Sherlock might not have any kind of romantic interest in her, but he's come to value her affection, and she "does count", and they both know it. And it might be better to be a friend of Sherlock's than a lover. No, given his personality, I am sure it's much better. So I don't feel that sorry for Molly any more.

 

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

 

Absolutely it's for John. Look at that look he gives John just before he takes the gun. I think he loves Mary in his way, but if she were to go 'poof!' tomorrow I don't think it would affect him much.

Especially after Sherlock's extremely heartwarming speech. God, it was an emotional wedding. Even the cake was in tiers.

 

Uhm. Excuse me Beny. But I believe you started a topic where you keep your bad puns.

 

 

Aw, don't be a spoilsport!