Episode 3.2, "The Sign of Three"

[sfmpco]

Interesting that when Sherlock goes to Molly to ask for her help in figuring out the alcohol consumption issue, that he says he lacks the personal experience to figure it out.  Do we ever see him have a drink before the stag party?

 

Even in ASIB, in the Christmas scene, Molly remarks, "We're having our Christmas drinkies, then."

 

Sherlock: No stopping them, apparently.

 

So apparently he doesn't really drink or if so, very rarely.  Although he consumed his beer during the stag party without any problem.

[T.o.b.y]

Interesting that when Sherlock goes to Molly to ask for her help in figuring out the alcohol consumption issue, that he says he lacks the personal experience to figure it out.  Do we ever see him have a drink before the stag party?

 

Yes, we do:

 

 

It's when he's pretty upset, though. I assume Sherlock doesn't drink much normally, because that would mean loss of control, which he seems to dread. On the other hand, it would make investigations where he has to talk to people and get them to tell him a few things they'd rather keep to themselves easier if he could hold a bit of liquor. Oh well, I guess Sherlock doesn't need to resort to strategies like that, considering all he can find out from merely observing...

 

That's a very sweet little scene, by the way, where Sherlock goes to Molly for advice about the stag night. Trust Molly to be sympathetic. She does bristle a bit at the assumption that she'd be an expert on getting drunk, but note that she by no means laughs at Sherlock for badly over-thinking a social occasion. She takes him and his worries seriously, as always. Lovely Molly...

 

[sfmpco]

 

Interesting that when Sherlock goes to Molly to ask for her help in figuring out the alcohol consumption issue, that he says he lacks the personal experience to figure it out.  Do we ever see him have a drink before the stag party?

 

 

It's when he's pretty upset, though. I assume Sherlock doesn't drink much normally, because that would mean loss of control, which he seems to dread. On the other hand, it would make investigations where he has to talk to people and get them to tell him a few things they'd rather keep to themselves easier if he could hold a bit of liquor. Oh well, I guess Sherlock doesn't need to resort to strategies like that, considering all he can find out from merely observing...

 

That's a very sweet little scene, by the way, where Sherlock goes to Molly for advice about the stag night. Trust Molly to be sympathetic. She does bristle a bit at the assumption that she'd be an expert on getting drunk, but note that she by no means laughs at Sherlock for badly over-thinking a social occasion. She takes him and his worries seriously, as always. Lovely Molly...

 

 

 

Ah yes, I forgot about the drinking in that scene.  Still, he was trying to calm his scared to death nerves.  yeah, he's pretty much not good with the liquor thing.  Definitely can't hold it.  Probably learned his lesson good during the stag night.  Won't be trying that again.

[T.o.b.y]

Doesn't it strike anybody as odd that master-of-observation-and-deduction Sherlock Holmes did not notice that his beer had been laced? I mean, the glass was fuller than it should, and wouldn't the taste have changed, too?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

They had been at it for awhile and it looked like the drinking was getting to him in a scene or two before then. So no, not necessarily. His tastebuds may all ready may have been numbed, for a better word.

[Carol the Dabbler]

That scene still puzzles me, not because Sherlock didn't notice the difference, but because I can't figure out whether John was intentionally lacing Sherlock's drink, or whether he wanted both shots for himself.  Clearly he was already fuzzy enough in the head that he had trouble remembering which was which -- but what was his actual intent -- and why?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

To me, that was a definite spiking of Sherlock's drink. He makes sure he hands Sherlock the one John had just doctored. He picks it up in his left hand....and though a little befuddled he does hand that one to Sherlock.

[jesskayding]

I hesitate to point out the obvious, but there is the Johnlock explanation of Sherlock's evident unhappiness in TSOT. Maybe Sherlock is upset because he is in love with John and is losing him to someone else. In that case, liking or disliking the bride would be irrelevant - the loss would be the same. Obviously Sherlock is not the type of man who would make a big declaration of love, particularly if he was uncertain that it would be reciprocated, so he might react by putting on a brave face and throwing himself into the wedding plans as a way of overcompensating.

 

Well, it's never going to be canon but the writers have given us enough teasers - the stag night, for a start, but there are a number of other hints too - to allow us to make this interpretation if we want to. I must admit I've always assumed Sherlock was gay, right back to ACD's original stories, so I can easily see him being very upset when the object of his affections gets married. John, on the other hand.....Bisexual, maybe,

 

It's still hard to understand why Sherlock is so amiable towards Mary from the beginning. Admittedly she seemed sweet in the first two episodes, but when has that ever worked with Sherlock? Sarah, for instance, was patient and helpful in TBB and he was horribly rude to her. He manages to ruin all John's attempts at relationships but then Mary comes along and he's putty in her hands, even after she shoots him. Why? What makes her different, in his eyes, to Sarah or any of John's other girlfriends?

 

Sorry, I don't believe Sherlock is gay. That doesn't fit at all with his natural attraction, near instant attraction to The Woman. He stumbled over his words just a few minutes into meeting her.

 

In SIP he clearly let John know he didn't have a boyfriend, but it certainly threw him off. He was quite succinct in his answer, however, to John about not having a girlfriend, but felt that John was hitting on him with the do you have a boyfriend question.

 

Now he and John do have a really close relationship a lot like David & Johnathon in the Bible. They weren't gay, but the Bible says the love they had for one another was greater than that of a woman. That's exactly what we are witnessing with Sherlock & John.

 

At no point do the writers even hint to Sherlock being gay, it's the exact opposite actually. Its others who think they are gay per John is Sherlock's live in PA, but it's really just humor in the script.

 

We need to separate the meaning of love from sexual attraction. They're not at ALL the same!

[Carol the Dabbler]

To me, that was a definite spiking of Sherlock's drink. He makes sure he hands Sherlock the one John had just doctored. He picks it up in his left hand....and though a little befuddled he does hand that one to Sherlock.

 

 

That was my first impression.  But others see it as John wanting both shots for himself, and just getting the beakers mixed up.  I have no idea how to tell for sure, so am hoping somebody can offer some insight.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

If he wanted both shots for himself...why not drink them both right there....or make sure he got the right beaker. It sure looked like he was trying hard to get it to Sherlock.

[Alex the Dabbler]

It's not clear what John's intentions were in that scene and being somewhat inebriated doesn't help.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

This is true. But impression was...and still is that he had finally figured out that Sherlock didn't mean for them to get that way and he was going to do his best to make sure Sherlock's little experiment failed.

 

I could be wrong of course and that's okay. It's all fine no matter how the coin drops.

[Carol the Dabbler]

The big problem as I see it is that whatever John had been planning to do was interrupted by Sherlock's return.  So perhaps John had intended to gulp down the second shot as well, but had to hide it in the beer instead.  Or perhaps it was intended for Sherlock all along.  I favor the latter interpretation, but can't really say why.

[T.o.b.y]

That scene still puzzles me, not because Sherlock didn't notice the difference, but because I can't figure out whether John was intentionally lacing Sherlock's drink, or whether he wanted both shots for himself.  Clearly he was already fuzzy enough in the head that he had trouble remembering which was which -- but what was his actual intent -- and why?

 

Why? Why, to get Sherlock properly inebriated of course, and turn the stag night into the drunken brawl it was supposed to be. I mean, getting totally pissed is the sole purpose of such an evening, isn't it? Poor Sherlock just didn't get that, and he was spoiling any chance of fun with his obsessive behavior. I was waiting for John to smuggle something into his drink from the second Sherlock got that damn phone app out. (I totally love Sherlock's approach, though. He went to so much trouble... it's very lovable, in a very Sherlockian way.)

 

 

Sorry, I don't believe Sherlock is gay. That doesn't fit at all with his natural attraction, near instant attraction to The Woman. He stumbled over his words just a few minutes into meeting her.

 

Jess, I mostly agree with you on this subject, but I'd like to point out that The Woman proves nothing. As she herself points out, Sherlock doesn't fit her usual bill, either, and she still fell for him. I am not gay (well, not all that much), and I am certainly attracted to Irene Adler as well. I guess for some people, sexual orientation really is an either/or thing, but I suspect that for most, there is a bit of room for flexibility, whether they admit it to themselves or no. On a related note, any time John yells "I am not gay", I go, so what, my dear? That doesn't automatically mean you couldn't ever be attracted to another guy, you know...

 

No, the main reason why I don't believe they are meant to be a couple is because they're not. I mean, in this day and age, and with Sherlock's "I don't give a damn what anybody thinks anyway" attitude, what would there have been to stop them? If they wanted to, they'd have been all over each other long ago. This is not 1895.

 

Their friendship does have a very special quality. And I completely understand why many read it as "more" than friendship, at least I do after series 3. I see love, I even see romance going on there. What I do not see is any hint of sex or sexual longing. It's just not there in my eyes. And I wouldn't like it, either, because that would be way too simple an explanation for their behavior. It would make the story more boring and commonplace. Besides, I hold that you can't be everything to another person. Best friend, colleague, brother-figure and lover? No. Something's gotta give.

[jesskayding]

Well I think it does mean something. That was Irene's feelings, not Sherlocks. If that's the case he seems quite comfortable with women touching him, besides his mother. Hug from even John made him feel strange. I just don't see that ever happening.

[Arcadia]

... what they did with the boys in the last three episodes was heavy encouragement, if you ask me...

[..... I completely understand why many read it as "more" than friendship, at least I do after series 3.....

(emphasis mine)

 

Toby, you've alluded to this many times, are you willing to be a little more specific? About which scenes you are referring to, I mean. I see a couple of scenes in S3 that clearly show the love (I agree, platonic) between the two, but I get the impression you're seeing more than I do. Also to me it's not that much different than what they've been telegraphing ever since Sherlock saw John draped in bombs in TGG; just now they're admitting it, perhaps. Anyway, I'm just curious to know what I'm missing.

 

I see (in S3) ... the smile on John's face when he tells Sherlock he's his best friend, and .... the look on Sherlock's face just before he shoots Magnussen.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Why? Why, to get Sherlock properly inebriated of course, and turn the stag night into the drunken brawl it was supposed to be. I mean, getting totally pissed is the sole purpose of such an evening, isn't it? Poor Sherlock just didn't get that, and he was spoiling any chance of fun with his obsessive behavior. I was waiting for John to smuggle something into his drink from the second Sherlock got that damn phone app out. (I totally love Sherlock's approach, though. He went to so much trouble... it's very lovable, in a very Sherlockian way.)

 

Well, that seems to be the unanimous opinion on this forum (at least among those who have registered an opinion), and that's what I thought too -- but it does seem debatable, and Ariane DeVere apparently thinks that John wanted both shots for himself:

 

NEXT PUB. John is alone at the bar, and he takes a shot glass full of – presumably – whiskey from the barman.

JOHN: Ooh, er ...

(He glances over his shoulder to where Sherlock is standing with his back to him.)

JOHN: Quick, one more. He mustn’t see.

(He drinks the shot in one gulp, humming appreciatively, then takes the second shot which the barman has brought him. The two cylinders are on the bar in front of him, full of beer, and he pours the whiskey into the left one. He takes both of them across towards Sherlock but then stops and looks at them, apparently unable to remember which one has the shot in it. Sniffing the left one and presumably thinking that that one contains only beer, he puts it on the table.)

JOHN: There you go.

 

[emphasis added]  So I was hoping someone here agreed with her and could explain why!

 

I went looking to see if I could find anyone else saying that online -- no luck so far, but did find this comment from T_Beermonster:

 

The drinking from graduated cylinders annoyed the hell out me.

 

443.7 ml is not a legal unit of dispense in the UK. You can have 1/3 pint (189.4 ml) or any multiple of 1/2 pint (284.1 ml).

 

Also, even assuming a complete lack of taste-buds and some sort of nasal blockage Sherlock should actually see the "sneaky" addition of a whisky because of the increased volume.

 

The not-legal part doesn't bother me -- since when did Sherlock ever follow normal rules?  But they do have an excellent point about the increased volume.  For once, Sherlock himself saw but did not observe!

 

[jesskayding]

That scene still puzzles me, not because Sherlock didn't notice the difference, but because I can't figure out whether John was intentionally lacing Sherlock's drink, or whether he wanted both shots for himself. Clearly he was already fuzzy enough in the head that he had trouble remembering which was which -- but what was his actual intent -- and why?

 

John didn't purposely lace Sherlock's drink which is why he was weighing & trying to figure out which was his. Why in the world would John want to lace Sherlock's drink?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, good -- someone who agrees with Ariana!  OK, Jess, assuming that John gave Sherlock the wrong drink, what was he actually intending to do, and why?

 

[sfmpco]

Wow, this thread is a little off-piste (thank you SHERLOCK for that new phrase!), so I hesitate to chime in as I think I've already said what i think so many times.  

 

However... John is much more in touch with his feelings towards Sherlock - nothing gay, just deep friendship, and he can verbalize them, although generally under duress... like being at Sherlock's grave, inside the bomb-rigged tube car... even his unwavering belief in Sherlock all the way through TRF... 

 

Sherlock, on the other hand, gives a few hints at how he feels about John in the best man speech, but probably since he's never had a true friend like John, he's also emotionally stunted and has some maturing to do, as evidenced in the way he tried to surprise John with his return in TEH.  It was an emotionally immature way to handle it.  Even at the end, when John makes his speech in the tube car, Sherlock laughs because he made a "gotcha moment."  Sort of young teenager-ish in maturity level to do that.  He really doesn't know how to have proper friendships.  We can see how awkward he is in the whole best man speech and the dance afterwards.  He's not relaxed.  He doesn't know how to have friendships with women, he doesn't know how to have friendships with men.  

 

But yet Sherlock is also a man of action, and yet he never fights back when John goes after him nor does he deflect John's blows.  John puts him in his place more than once and in the earlier episodes Sherlock gets sulky - a childish reaction.  We'd never see Lestrade have that reaction

 

We see Sherlock begin to turn the corner in HOB when he confesses to John that John is his one friend.  My note - probably his first friend.  Even though Sherlock still uses John in the episode, this turns the corner for TRF when Sherlock starts getting the picture that maybe, just maybe there are other friends in his life too that he has largely discounted, like Molly.  Of course he always has Mrs. Hudson, but she's more of a maternal figure to him. And in HOB he still isn't quite sure where he stands on a friendship with Lestrade because he accuses Lestrade of being Mycroft's watchdog for his life.  By TRF, Lestrade is considered a friend because he's one of the people Sherlock is willing to jump for.  Really, before HOB, John and Sherlock were more like two school boys getting into mischief and having a laugh at it...one of the biggest laughs was Buckingham Palace.

 

Anyhow, by the time we get to HLV, Sherlock is much more in touch with his feelings and is willing to do what must be done to destroy the hard drive in Magnussen's brain, even at the risk of his own personal freedom.  And that he says, "Give Mary my love!"  Is this his first verbal declaration of any love for anyone?  I always come up with statements like that and someone proves me wrong!  LOL

[jesskayding]

Well he wasn't down with Sherlock's schedule & measuring their drinks. Which is why he takes a shot @ the bar, says to the bartender hurry he mustn't see ( me enjoying myself ). He was trying his best to enjoy the lame stag night that Sherlock planned. Unfortunately he mixes up the tubes & messes up Sherlock's plan to have a sober stag night.

 

I assume a stag night is supposed to be a drunken party the best man throws for the groom with the expectation of staggering home drunk, much like the expectation of strippers ( I don't condone this behavior by the way) @ the American version, we call them bachelor parties.

 

He probably deduced that Molly's calculations were off versus John sneaking shots and accidentally giving him his drink.

 

That's your weakness Carol, everything has to be so clever.

[Caya]

And that he says, "Give Mary my love!"  Is this his first verbal declaration of any love for anyone?  I always come up with statements like that and someone proves me wrong!  LOL

 

Nope - from his best man speech, as per Ariane's:

 

 

SHERLOCK: Mary, when I say you deserve this man, it is the highest compliment of which I am capable. John, you have endured war, and injury, and tragic loss ... (he leans closer to John) ... so sorry again about that last one ... (he straightens up again) ... so know this: today you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved – in short, the two people who love you most in all this world. And I know I speak for Mary as well when I say we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that.

[sfmpco]

See?  I am always wrong!  LOL  I can't keep track of the details.  So, he's said the word twice.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

If John did think that a sober stag party was lame then what better way to spice it up then to get the all to straight laced Best Man drunk and watch the fun. Really John didn't seem to be so inebriated that he didn't know what he was doing. Even more than Sherlock. John pulls him out of a fight and it is probably John who gets them home the first time.

[jesskayding]

I implore you to watch that scene again. It is quite obvious that John forgot which was his & then took a chance on hopefully choosing the right one.

 

Hay y'all know I'll go back & check myself when I'm wrong, see mí posts in is sherlock a chess player, in this case I'm absolutely correct.