Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[KaeEm]

 

 

You're absolutely right that's it's very subjective.  And I want to believe your interpretation that he was dazed, touched, sad, and covering up some strong emotions.  I just wish the show (and/or Freeman) had given me more reason to believe that.  Because personally, it's hard for me to see past the chilliness.

 

 

I highly doubt that Martin Freeman's acting is to blame here. If the writers had wanted him to be more (openly) emotional in that scene, he would have been. I think we've had enough prove of his acting abilties before.

 

[T.o.b.y]

I love John Watson and I'm not angry with him like some fans seem to be today, but wow, it's hard to have that be the last we see of John interacting with Sherlock for two years.  I much preferred the graveside speech.

 

And that speech was so great, how could they ever get close to that again. I am very relieved they did not try. I have a feeling that the show is trying to re-live it's biggest successes anyway and it grates on me. Leave well enough alone.

 

It's all a matter of taste and interpretation. I almost prefer the good bye here to the graveside. It just suits me. It's always suited me when I got the impression that those two made a silent agreement not to get all "embarrassing" and emotional, to save face if that was all that was left. It's so endearing when Sherlock starts to say "something he has always meant to" and then turns it into a joke. It will leave me wondering for ever whether he really had something to say initially (and what that might have been) or whether he was just playing for humor, like on the train, to make John (and himself) feel better.

 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

I mean, what are the writers really trying to tell us? That Mary's actions can be justified by the fact that John would be crushed if he knew the truth? What if he should find out years later? And what about Sherlock; if he died, would that be any less devastating to John?

 

I am, however, re-evaluating my opinion on John. He does get very angry initially upon finding out, and he stays angry for quite a while - according to Mary, he has given her the silent-treatment for months. But unfortunately we don't get to see that. It might have been a bit satisfying. In the end he decides to let the past be the past, and the forgiveness-scene is actually quite moving, or it would be, if it wasn't overshadowed by the real problem - that she put a bullet in Sherlock's chest. Don't mess with Sherlock!! But the writers don't even approach John's wrath at that, and he has to be angry about it! The forgiveness comes too easily, without really dealing with the extent of the issues.

 

If they kill off Mary, or have John divorce her, I'll probably be persuaded to watch the following episodes; otherwise not, because I have a big, big issue with her now.

 

Oh, and the whole John-subconsciously-wanted-to-marry-an-ex-killer? Makes him seem darker in a way that I dislike.

 

Welcome to Sherlock Into Darkness.

 

 

Well Mary does die in canon, but I was kind of relieved to see they didn't go that route right away. ACD probably did it so he could get the gents back together at Baker Street. It's convenient and plausible given the era in which the stories were written. But I was kind of thrilled that they didn't go there, that they made her a more interesting and complicated character. At the same time I would have been content for her to be just a really smart good person who gets a long famously with her husband and his friend. Someone who isn't going to be sacrificed on the altar of the bro-bond because she gets in the way of their epic love. It's ridiculous. There is room in a person's heart for more than one. Even in Sherlock's heart. We've been shown that this series. He has a mother and father who love him, he had a dog, his brother loves him, he loves John and Mary. Life is richer and broader and more expansive than this romance novel so many fans want. Grrr. 

 

Anyway I do understand what you're saying. And why you feel the way you do. sometimes the choices writers make seem to stretch credulity, but then again it's a very big show that kind of stretched credultiy all the time. Still, I'm a teensy bit doubtful your commitment not to watch if Mary lives on. I've heard it too many times in other fandoms and the same people making the declarations are back in the fray the next time around.

 

I appreciate your comment about having room for more than one person in your life; that's worth keeping in mind. Yet something inside me strongly objects to the writers saying that Mary is more important to John than Sherlock is. This is not from a real-life perspective - I think one's spouse should be the most important - but this is fiction. Fiction of which Sherlock and John are in the center. It seems that Mary's actions are justified by the writers in that she called the ambulance, and in that it was more important for John not to find out the truth about Mary than to still have his best friend with him.

 

But even as I write this, I'm wondering if maybe I've misunderstood the intentions of the writers (I often reconsider my own attitude, especially if I'm unhappy with something, because I have a need for some form of closure). Just because Mary decided to keep her secrets, doesn't mean that the writers agree with her - if they did, they would not have had Sherlock reveal the truth to John. Yet, they also have Sherlock defend her; not her lies, but her attempt to "kill" Sherlock (I know she did not want to kill him, but it could have happened). I can't reconcile with Sherlock's reasoning that it was "surgery" - like I've said before, she should have turned herself in. However, I guess we'll never know if the writers agree with that or not. Sherlock forgives her quickly, and perhaps they mean to demonstrate how charitable it is of Sherlock to do so... It certainly is.

 

I just generally feel uncomfortable by how dark and conflicted this episode is. I tend to desire harmony, solutions, and closure at the end of a conflict. Plus, I'm really doubtful as to the purpose of making Mary an ex-assasin. If it was only for the plot of this episode, then fine, but I would not like it for Sherlock, John and Mary to become an 'action-trio', as someone else on here put it. That part, though, remains to be seen

[Caya]

I thought that this whole bit about the shot being surgery was Sherlock telling a white lie to calm John down (keeping true to his vow and all that). Maybe Mary's subconscious caused her to throw the shot and not kill Sherlock outright, but this was far too close to the call to have been a deliberate attempt at incapacitation. If she'd wanted that, she would've had a dozen locations to aim at that were better suited.

[Ruthyone]

I've only seen the episode once, so I may have missed something, but what exactly was the point of Mary shooting Sherlock? If she wanted to prevent John knowing the truth, she should have shot to kill. If she just wanted to escape, she could have shot him somewhere less dangerous than the abdomen - the kneecap, for instance. What did she achieve by seriously injuring him but leaving him able to expose her to John?

 

 

........after long thought, I think Mary meant to kill him but didn't realise he was such a strong person and when Sherlock survived - Mary had to rethink her strategy. She's been too smiley and gracious for an assasin and I think her story's still some way to go......

 

[T.o.b.y]

Just because Mary decided to keep her secrets, doesn't mean that the writers agree with her - if they did, they would not have had Sherlock reveal the truth to John. Yet, they also have Sherlock defend her; not her lies, but her attempt to "kill" Sherlock (I know she did not want to kill him, but it could have happened). I can't reconcile with Sherlock's reasoning that it was "surgery" - like I've said before, she should have turned herself in. However, I guess we'll never know if the writers agree with that or not. Sherlock forgives her quickly, and perhaps they mean to demonstrate how charitable it is of Sherlock to do so... It certainly is.

 

I just generally feel uncomfortable by how dark and conflicted this episode is. I tend to desire harmony, solutions, and closure at the end of a conflict. Plus, I'm really doubtful as to the purpose of making Mary an ex-assasin. If it was only for the plot of this episode, then fine, but I would not like it for Sherlock, John and Mary to become an 'action-trio', as someone else on here put it. That part, though, remains to be seen

 

That someone, I think was me, and if the "action trio" really is the future of this show, I will turn off (no, I won't, I'll only say I will, then go "oh look - there's Sherlock - must see him" and my brain will twist everything around him to my liking).

 

About Mary. Again. Still. (What a great character to keep us in discussion about her for so long, huh?)

 

I think Sherlock really, genuinely likes her. Because she is like him. She is more like Sherlock than like John. I believe him when he says the shot was "surgery" and I think he admires her for it, because it betrays a cold-bloodedness and a cleverness and daring that is like him (or like who he would like to be!). Sherlock does not forgive her at all, because he's never angry with her. He is worried that she will hurt John, but once he finds out that her first priority is to keep John happy and that her love for him is real, he does all he can to restore their marriage. He isn't one bit angry at her for himself. In her shoes, he probably would have done the same - and that's why it is probably even more important for him that John forgives her. It might be an indirect way of being accepted for the dark and cold side of his own nature and forgiven for all he has done and will do to him.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

And lastly, I don't really see what John could have done to save Sherlock after he had shot Magnussen. There where plenty of witnesses who had seen that Sherlock had taken that shot, so what could John have done? And should he have thanked Sherlock for doing what he had done? I don't actually think that John wants to be thankful for having Mary but in exchange losing Sherlock again. Sherlock thought that John would be better off with Mary than with him (and by that I mean as best friends and NOT as lovers), but I'm not sure if John actually agrees with that. So I don't think that thanking Sherlock for taking John's best friend away from him again would have made things any better. And as for John standing at the airport hand in hand with Mary: Sherlock had just basically given his live to protect John and Mary and their unborn child, in short, the Watson family. I don't think it would have made him feel better to see John turing his back on Mary and by that negating everything Sherlock had risked to save them. 

 

Wow, this post has become way longer than I expected. I just feel really sorry for both Sherlock AND John and I don't think John is such a bad person or has made any such heartless choices to deserve all those negative words he has been getting here. He actually IS the victim in this whole story and has had his whole live shattered to pieces once again (and so has Sherlock and I feel as bad for him as I do for John). And yes, I'm fully aware that we're all just talking about a TV-Series here and not about real people   But it's fun doing that, isn't it? 

 

Hi KaeEm! Thanks for your observations; they kind of helped me get a few things about John into perspective - especially concerning the ending. He could not, and should not, have done anything after Sherlock shot Magnussen. That would have ruined what Sherlock had just given up his future to secure; Mary and John's happiness and safety. My heart swells and bleeds for Sherlock in this episode. Was there ever a truer friend?

 

I earlier suggested that John should say thank you to Sherlock, but now I see that it would have had the opposite of the desired effect: John would be confirming that he's grateful for what Sherlock did, and while he is surely grateful for his friend's love, he is surely not happy with how everything turned out.

[leanne_maybe]

/>

Now my only real bugbear is Moriarty returning from the dead. I mean, there is hope that he still is dead and someone is just using his image for whatever reason, but I do suspect they simply want to bring back the character and the actor because he was so popular. Maybe it's for the best. Compared to Magnussen, Moriarty is kind of lovable.

But we see him. We see Moriarty, after the credits, walking, talking, clearly not just an image. I mentioned earlier and asked what people thought we should get from that, but understandably the focus is more on Mary's story. But when Moriarty is mentioned, everyone talks about the image as evidence he may still be dead, and I would definitely agree with that if it wasn't for what was shown at the end of the credits.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Just because Mary decided to keep her secrets, doesn't mean that the writers agree with her - if they did, they would not have had Sherlock reveal the truth to John. Yet, they also have Sherlock defend her; not her lies, but her attempt to "kill" Sherlock (I know she did not want to kill him, but it could have happened). I can't reconcile with Sherlock's reasoning that it was "surgery" - like I've said before, she should have turned herself in. However, I guess we'll never know if the writers agree with that or not. Sherlock forgives her quickly, and perhaps they mean to demonstrate how charitable it is of Sherlock to do so... It certainly is.

 

I just generally feel uncomfortable by how dark and conflicted this episode is. I tend to desire harmony, solutions, and closure at the end of a conflict. Plus, I'm really doubtful as to the purpose of making Mary an ex-assasin. If it was only for the plot of this episode, then fine, but I would not like it for Sherlock, John and Mary to become an 'action-trio', as someone else on here put it. That part, though, remains to be seen

 

That someone, I think was me, and if the "action trio" really is the future of this show, I will turn off (no, I won't, I'll only say I will, then go "oh look - there's Sherlock - must see him" and my brain will twist everything around him to my liking).

 

About Mary. Again. Still. (What a great character to keep us in discussion about her for so long, huh?)

 

I think Sherlock really, genuinely likes her. Because she is like him. She is more like Sherlock than like John. I believe him when he says the shot was "surgery" and I think he admires her for it, because it betrays a cold-bloodedness and a cleverness and daring that is like him (or like who he would like to be!). Sherlock does not forgive her at all, because he's never angry with her. He is worried that she will hurt John, but once he finds out that her first priority is to keep John happy and that her love for him is real, he does all he can to restore their marriage. He isn't one bit angry at her for himself. In her shoes, he probably would have done the same - and that's why it is probably even more important for him that John forgives her. It might be an indirect way of being accepted for the dark and cold side of his own nature and forgiven for all he has done and will do to him.

 

 

There we have it again; the dark side of Sherlock's nature It is chilling. I've always had difficulties with this side of him, so I guess it was a hard blow for me to hear him say to John that he had chosen her himself because on some level he knew that she had a danger-streak.

 

I agree, Sherlock likes Mary - for whatever reason - but I don't I love Sherlock more and more, though. I cannot say how much I love him in this episode, for everything. He is not perfect, but he does become a hero for his friends, despite his own claims against heroism.

[leanne_maybe]

/>

 

 

 

Just because Mary decided to keep her secrets, doesn't mean that the writers agree with her - if they did, they would not have had Sherlock reveal the truth to John. Yet, they also have Sherlock defend her; not her lies, but her attempt to "kill" Sherlock (I know she did not want to kill him, but it could have happened). I can't reconcile with Sherlock's reasoning that it was "surgery" - like I've said before, she should have turned herself in. However, I guess we'll never know if the writers agree with that or not. Sherlock forgives her quickly, and perhaps they mean to demonstrate how charitable it is of Sherlock to do so... It certainly is.

 

I just generally feel uncomfortable by how dark and conflicted this episode is. I tend to desire harmony, solutions, and closure at the end of a conflict. Plus, I'm really doubtful as to the purpose of making Mary an ex-assasin. If it was only for the plot of this episode, then fine, but I would not like it for Sherlock, John and Mary to become an 'action-trio', as someone else on here put it. That part, though, remains to be seen

That someone, I think was me, and if the "action trio" really is the future of this show, I will turn off (no, I won't, I'll only say I will, then go "oh look - there's Sherlock - must see him" and my brain will twist everything around him to my liking).

 

About Mary. Again. Still. (What a great character to keep us in discussion about her for so long, huh?)

 

I think Sherlock really, genuinely likes her. Because she is like him. She is more like Sherlock than like John. I believe him when he says the shot was "surgery" and I think he admires her for it, because it betrays a cold-bloodedness and a cleverness and daring that is like him (or like who he would like to be!). Sherlock does not forgive her at all, because he's never angry with her. He is worried that she will hurt John, but once he finds out that her first priority is to keep John happy and that her love for him is real, he does all he can to restore their marriage. He isn't one bit angry at her for himself. In her shoes, he probably would have done the same - and that's why it is probably even more important for him that John forgives her. It might be an indirect way of being accepted for the dark and cold side of his own nature and forgiven for all he has done and will do to him.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but yes - she is like him, and if John doesn't like that, he can't like those aspects of Sherlock. That does make sense. And perhaps it was foreshadowed in TSOT, when Sholo says to Sherlock that they are alike and he agrees and says 'but *we* wouldn't do that to John Watson, would we?'

[sherlockandjohn]

Still, it would've been a nice gesture, I have to agree. A bit of the old "you and me against the world" instead of "me and Mary, and then there's Sherlock" which seem to be John's priorities now. Understandable perhaps, but it still makes me sad.

 

True, "You and me against the rest of the world" got a bit lost here. It's more like Sherlock doing all he can to protect his friends, which is admirable, but gives a different dynamic to his friendship with John. I'm not unhappy about Sherlock sacrifice, though, not at all - I just hope the balance of their friendship can be restored at some point.

[T.o.b.y]

 I cannot say how much I love him in this episode, for everything. He is not perfect, but he does become a hero for his friends, despite his own claims against heroism.

 

Yeah, I love how he keeps saying "I am not a hero" and then goes on to do these incredibly heroic things.

 

Oh but he is perfect. Darkness and all. Perfect fictional person. (Huge crush at work, obviously - I should probably turn in for the night before I embarrass myself here...)

 

[mangopony]

At this point, I am starting to feel like we're talking in circles, and some of it is coming off in a rather nasty tone. Maybe that's just lack of sleep causing me to misinterpret. In any event, I'm going to call it a night. 

 

Happy First Day of the Hiatus, people.  :'(

 

I agree Karie, feel like I'm reading the same things over and over. It's amazing the passion behind these opinions!! Must be awesome telly!!

 

I've never been in a "hiatus" of Sherlock before. I saw the repeat of series 1 on Alibi and then got the dvds for my birthday in June. When I saw series 3 was coming back I rewatched series 1, blitzed through 2 (which is when it took over my very life!) and then watched 3.  Tell me, how does one cope?? What if it's 2 years before it's back??? I'm already having withdrawals.................

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

It's pretty funny how John is so stunned when Sherlock says he has a girlfriend. Sherlock just goes on to talk about Magnussen, and I can just hear John's brain going 'yeah, all I heard after 'girlfriend' was bla, bla, bla'

[KaeEm]

 

 

 

Hi KaeEm! Thanks for your observations; they kind of helped me get a few things about John into perspective - especially concerning the ending. He could not, and should not, have done anything after Sherlock shot Magnussen. That would have ruined what Sherlock had just given up his future to secure; Mary and John's happiness and safety. My heart swells and bleeds for Sherlock in this episode. Was there ever a truer friend?

 

I earlier suggested that John should say thank you to Sherlock, but now I see that it would have had the opposite of the desired effect: John would be confirming that he's grateful for what Sherlock did, and while he is surely grateful for his friend's love, he is surely not happy with how everything turned out.

 

 

Wow, I'm glad I was able to restore at least a little bit of John's reputation here 

[Mo_Alo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPfDhXWhOUA

 

GUY GETS HEARTATTACK REACTING TO SHERLOCK.

[mangopony]

Regarding Moriarty - was I the only one who saw the bit after the credits with him walking around and talking? I thought at the end of the last series that the person we saw is an actor saying lines fed to him by Moriarty, as Moriarty did all the way through The Great Game, and the 'Richard Brookes tale was a kind of a double bluff. Then when I saw the TV screens at the end of this episode, I thought I was right, as the photo wasn't actually moving. But then after the credits we actually saw the person we saw shoot himself in TRF walking around and speaking, so that does seem to suggest he is actually coming back.

 

 I missed this! Going to have to watch the end credits again (you know....once I've watched the whole episode again.......)

 

I really hope Moriarty is back. LOVED Scott's portrayal of him. The moment in ASiB when they're at the pool and his phone goes off - brilliant! It was like a twisted pantomime!!

 

[T.o.b.y]

But we see him. We see Moriarty, after the credits, walking, talking, clearly not just an image. I mentioned earlier and asked what people thought we should get from that, but understandably the focus is more on Mary's story. But when Moriarty is mentioned, everyone talks about the image as evidence he may still be dead, and I would definitely agree with that if it wasn't for what was shown at the end of the credits.

 

*Sigh* I know. Of course, theoretically, it could be just an older recording of him, used by somebody else. But I very much doubt it. Seems he is still alive. Which makes the entire Reichenbach Fall and aftermath even more pointless. Oh dear. I did really like Andrew Scott's portrayal of him, but honestly, how about just not killing good characters in the first place? I really, really dislike fake deaths and resurrections. All this makes Sherlock less special, dammit.

 

[Sherlock_luvr]

I'm new! And have a few, well, I suppose, comments

 

 

I adored the last episode, though would have liked to see John's (and everyone elses, really) reaction/concern over Sherlock being so badly hurt. And/or after his collapse at Baker St a week later. I think some great potential for drama/concern/fear/anger was missed with the exclusion of this. I really want to see some fallout. Maybe series 4 will pick up not so far in the future.

 

 

All this talk of Mary and John being killers. Do we think Sherlock, in his two years of chasing down Moriarty's network, simply offered his marks tea and crumpets and then had them arrested?  No. I assume he's put bullets into the heads of a great many of them. His killing of CAM was pretty darn precise.

 

 

If Moriarty is back, can we have more Irene, too? I rather like to believe she rid him of Moriarty's little title after he rescued her from Karachi.

 

As much as I did like Mary in the first two episodes, her so coldly shooting Sherlock and her reaction after telling him he can't tell John, was too irredeemable. I'm hoping she and baby die (because I SO don't want to see a kid at Baker St) in the next series.

 

 

I loved Sherlock's character development this season. It proves to him that 'sentiment' is dangerous, as he's always believed. He's nearly died because of it. Been exiled because of it. Put more at odds with his 'iceman' brother because of it. I'd like to see him revert back to his old self at some point. Cold and calculating like in Series 1. But then later realize that the absence of sentiment doesn't make one a happier person, just maybe a safer one.

 

 

I haven't seen this mentioned but Sherlock shot CAM because it would protect Mary (though his concern was the extension of Mary who was John) and he knew Mycroft wouldn't let anyone shoot him. He knew if John took the shot, Mycroft wouldn't stop it. Sherlock used Mycroft's 'sentiment' and 'pressure point', his little brother, to his advantage there.

 

 

I do adore Janine but hope she doesn't really 'know how he is'. I'd love it if Mycroft was gay but not Sherlock. His reaction to Irene, I'm hoping proves he isn't.

 

 

The 'pressure points' scroll was fun. Did anyone pause for the characters other than Sherlock? What did they say? The porn use being normal made me laugh. And I like that 'morphine' was added later to CAM's mental vaults.

[mangopony]

Hello Everybody! I'm new to this forum and after being quite shocked at all the hate John gets here after yesterday's episode, I'd really like to join the discussion. 

 

First of all I doubt that things would have turned out differently if John hadn't chosen to stay with Mary (I don't think he has fully forgiven her yet, he said that he was still very pissed at her. He has just chosen not to give up on her completely). Even if John had left Mary for good after what she did to Sherlock, Magnussen would still have had leverage over Sherlock and John. Because if Magnussen had made public who Mary was, there's no doubt she would either have been killed (more likely) or sent to prison for lifetime. And no matter how angry John was at her, he would never have forgiven himself for basically causing the mother of his unborn child and the women who had most likely been his only support during the "dark years" of Sherlocks's absence being shot or locked away for life. We know how loyal John is to the people who have been there for him during this darkest days, so I really don't see him just get over the guilt of basically not preventing her from dying/going to jail if he could have. So no matter of the choice John made, he would still have had to suffer (a lot) from Magnussen's leverage and Sherlock would still have wanted to prevent his suffering. 

 

Secondly, at least for me John hasn't lost his status as the moral compass. I just like to think that he desparatly wants to believe that his wife, the woman he has loved for the last two years and who has basically been there for him when he had reached a low point in his ilfe and who is the mother of his unborn child, hasn't killed anyone who didn't deserve to be killed. John himself has killed before (quite coldly and without any bad conscience afterwards), but only when he thought the killing was justified. I think by not reading Mary's file, John is trying to pretend and convince himself that Mary did the same and didn't do anything more immoral than himself. If he had actually read the file, found out that she had been killing innocent people and still would have loved and forgiven her, that would be a totally different matter. And by the way: She didn't kill Janine, she was hardly injured. She killed the security guard, but that could have been in self defence. And she tried to kill Magnussen, but isn't that what Sherlock did too, in the end? What Mary tried to do there was some kind of self defence against a criminal blackmailer. In the end, there remains "only" the shooting of Sherlock that can't be justified by any means, but Sherlock himself is doing his best to justify this for John.

 

Thirdly, I don't really see where John has betrayed Sherlock. I think back in the flat when he had just found out about who Mary really was, he was quite ready to chose Sherlock over Mary for good. Note that it actually was Sherlock who prevented him from doing that and kept defending her, speaking in her defense and trying to convince John that she wasn't such a bad person as he - John - thought she was. And although we know how high John values Sherlocks opinion it still took him months to even talk to Mary again (as we learn in the scene in Sherlock's parent's house, John has been giving Mary the silent treating for months). So the forgivness didn't come easy to John and I dare think that it took Sherlock quite a lot of manipulation to even bring John to come to the point where he decided he wanted to give Mary a second chance (because I don't think he has fully forgiven her in that scene, he just let her know that he was giving her a second chance). Sherlock wanted John to not give up on Mary and we know a) how convincing and manipulative he can be and that John is loyal to a fault to Sherlock and finds it quite hard to say no to any of Sherlock's requests. Sherlock even brought Mary and John to his parents to manipulate John to speed up the "reunion". So given that this "reunion" was actually what Sherlock wanted, I don't really see how John has betrayed him. I have no doubt that if Sherlock hadn't been pushing John to forgive Mary, John probably wouldn't have made the effort to try and do so.

 

And lastly, I don't really see what John could have done to save Sherlock after he had shot Magnussen. There where plenty of witnesses who had seen that Sherlock had taken that shot, so what could John have done? And should he have thanked Sherlock for doing what he had done? I don't actually think that John wants to be thankful for having Mary but in exchange losing Sherlock again. Sherlock thought that John would be better off with Mary than with him (and by that I mean as best friends and NOT as lovers), but I'm not sure if John actually agrees with that. So I don't think that thanking Sherlock for taking John's best friend away from him again would have made things any better. And as for John standing at the airport hand in hand with Mary: Sherlock had just basically given his live to protect John and Mary and their unborn child, in short, the Watson family. I don't think it would have made him feel better to see John turing his back on Mary and by that negating everything Sherlock had risked to save them. 

 

Wow, this post has become way longer than I expected. I just feel really sorry for both Sherlock AND John and I don't think John is such a bad person or has made any such heartless choices to deserve all those negative words he has been getting here. He actually IS the victim in this whole story and has had his whole live shattered to pieces once again (and so has Sherlock and I feel as bad for him as I do for John). And yes, I'm fully aware that we're all just talking about a TV-Series here and not about real people   But it's fun doing that, isn't it? 

 

You've just encapsulated everything I felt about this episode here. Most importantly for me though is that you mention that John doesn't read the files on Mary. Neither do we. I am still prepared to believe that her "killing spree" was motivated by something greater than just a desire to kill. And, I think she was genuinely upset when she shot Sherlock. Her apology to me seemed sincere. She just seemed backed into a situation she saw no way out of and acted out of desperation. And besides, I don't trust Magnussen's "reading aloud" of her "file" in his mind palace. I think he was deliberately being manipulative to get at John. He licked a woman's face and pissed in the fireplace for goodness sake! Hardly an honourable man!!!

 

[leanne_maybe]

/>

 

 

But we see him. We see Moriarty, after the credits, walking, talking, clearly not just an image. I mentioned earlier and asked what people thought we should get from that, but understandably the focus is more on Mary's story. But when Moriarty is mentioned, everyone talks about the image as evidence he may still be dead, and I would definitely agree with that if it wasn't for what was shown at the end of the credits.

*Sigh* I know. Of course, theoretically, it could be just an older recording of him, used by somebody else. But I very much doubt it. Seems he is still alive. Which makes the entire Reichenbach Fall and aftermath even more pointless. Oh dear. I did really like Andrew Scott's portrayal of him, but honestly, how about just not killing good characters in the first place? I really, really dislike fake deaths and resurrections. All this makes Sherlock less special, dammit.

That would be sneaky if they later said it was old footage! Right.....that's what they'll do then! I liked Moriarty too, but it is really hard to see how they can come up with a plausible story for the survival of someone who shot himself in the head....

[Karie]

Can we please please talk about the fact that Mycroft was totally willing to send his brother to certain death because he killed a man everyone wanted dead anyway, but turns the plane around second Moriarty is back in the picture???  For me, the whole Mary "betrayal" thing is nothing compared to what Mycroft did!

 

It's not like Mary went to Baker street and hunted Sherlock down--she was trying to kill Magnussen to free herself from her past, and it wasn't her fault that Sherlock and John interrupted her.  Plus, Sherlock and Mary both understand that John loves them because of, not in spite of, their cunning/duplicity.

 

 Mycroft, on the other hand, what on earth was his excuse?  

 

You know who I was really angry with? Lady Smallwood!!! She's the one who approached Sherlock and put him on the case, and when he did what she didn't have the balls to do, she exiles him? Why not pull strings to have him pardoned for doing an honorable service to their country? Between her and Mycroft, whom they keep saying basically runs the country, why could they not make that happen? Hell, all of those operatives were on Mycroft's payroll, it would have been easy enough for him to pay them all off or threaten them like he did the Andersons to say that they saw Sherlock kill Magnussen in self-defense (or that he wad dead when they got there). What point is it to be shady and underhanded if you're going to suddenly turn honorable and law-abiding when your little brother's neck is on the chopping block?

Meh, I'm just going to assume that Mycroft's "exile" scheme instead of a pardon was his way of punishing Sherlock for drugging him and running off, and that he actually had a plan in place to intervene and save Sherlock from certain death wherever he was going. Like many, I'm still not convinced that the "return" of Moriarty isn't a ruse they came up with to remind Britain how much they need Sherlock Holmes. 

 

I dreamt about Sherlock (the show, sadly not really the man himself) and I woke up thinking about it and I still can't forgive Mary. For lying, yes. For having a dodgy past, yes. For planning to kill Magnussen, yes. For shooting Sherlock? No. Never. And John DOES forgive her. For trying to kill his best friend (because I can't swallow that guff about her "saving Sherlock's life" - it WAS a kill shot because he DIED and only survived because he saved himself). I just can't forgive her, which makes me unable to see why John can, and Sherlock as well who seems to forgive her with such ease ("we can trust Mary," "give my love to Mary," "that's my girl").

 

After TRF I was DEVESTATED but satisfied with the episode and my heart was so full of Sherlock and John's love for each other. Now all I can think about is how the hell Mary got away with what she did, how she's ruined my love of her and how I now see her as a real obstacle to the Sherlock and John-ness that is at the heart of the show.

 

Agreed.  I will never, ever, ever in a million years forgive her for what she did to Sherlock. I don't care if they have her throw herself on a bomb to save him in the next episode. I will be grateful she does it, but it won't erase her betrayal for me. 

 

I just hate that they made me love her in the first two eps. What was the point of that, if they were going to do this? Why not set her up as the villain from the beginning? They kept hinting at a character death (which obviously meant Sherlock, even though he only died for a minute). But for me, the beloved character that died was Mary. She is dead to me now. 

 

And can I just take a minute to say something here? I've seen a couple of people comment on feeling the need to "justify" that they still like Mary. I hope nothing I've posted has made anyone feel the need to do that. No one needs to justify why they feel a certain why. You don't have to offer proof of why it's OK for you to still like her, no more than I need to offer proof for why it makes sense that I don't.  This was  a huge thing they did, and I think it hit us all in the heart in different ways. Whichever side of the fence we all landed on, that's OK. I'm just glad we all have a place where we can try to make sense of how we're all feeling.  

 

Something that bugged me yesterday, but I couldn't put into words until I'd slept over it - why did Magnussen present the fact that his "vault" was all in his head as such a clever thing? Imho, admitting that to Sherlock of all people was the stupidest thing he could ever have done. It's certainly not like Sherlock's big brother hadn't let people vanish before. Storing all the blackmailing knowledge in his head doesn't make him smart in my eyes, it makes him incredibly vulnerable. Not even a dead man's switch? Stupid move. Well he did find out just how stupid a couple minutes later, but still, why did anyone ever think that was a good idea?

 

 

Yes, that was the dumbest move of all time.  So heavy handed, I had to laugh in retrospect. It was like all the movies where some idiot finds out some damning information about someone else, and they approach them with it, and they're like "I hope you understand I have to report this..." and the other person is like,"Yes, of course, but first, tell me, did you tell anyone else that you found this information?" "No, I came straight to you..." AND NOW YOU DIE HORRIBLY. He was an idiot in the end. 

 

 

Interesting side note: I was reading the Q&A with Mofftiss earlier today, and someone asked if they had spent a long time deliberating on having Sherlock kill Magnussen. They said not really because they had always assumed that, in the original ACD story of Milverton, Holmes had actually been  the one to kill him, and Watson had lied in his memoirs to protect him. I don't buy that, but it's an interesting theory nonetheless.

 

Some people were talking about Mary dying in season 4... I feel like she pretty much has to, for many reason, not least of which because

the actress has said that she took the role because she knew she would get to "die in John Watson's arms" at some point, and because Mofftiss have commented that they added Mary to the show with the idea in mind that they would eventually tackle writing John-Watson-the-Widower. So her death is imminent, it's just a question of how long they are going to drag it out.

 

 

Now, this is Moffat at the helm, and I know he can certainly milk it and keep a character (especially one of his amazing, larger than life, super hero women who are capable of shooting the freaking heads on a quarter flipping through the air in the dark ) around well past her welcome. So I don't want to hold my breath and asphyxiate.  BUT--- I don't really see them leaving John and Sherlock to raise a kid on their own, so either she has to die before the baby is born (which is soon, and that's assuming season 4 picks up immediately where season 3 ended), or she and the baby have to die together (although, judging by how things are going, they'll appear to be in a car that explodes while an ice cream truck drives past suspiciously slowly and blocks the view of the car moments before it explodes).  Now, I really hope they won't go so far as to give John a flesh and blood child to hold in his arms just to turn around and kill it, because that would be taking it too far in my opinion. So I am holding out hope that either Mary dies in childbirth in season 4, or she sacrifices herself before the baby is born.  Or she gets caught in the crossfire in whatever dangerous situation John and Sherlock get caught up in in  season 4.  Or they could just go the canon route, and have season 4 pick up with her having died in the interim. But I doubt it. 

 

I was actually thinking today how poetic (and yet sad for John) it would be if one of the loved ones of one of her victims came out of nowhere and killed her. Like I said, it's a dumb move for a woman in hiding to marry a pseudo celebrity who is closely connected to a man with an "international reputation". Anyone could see her picture and come looking for her. Magnussen said there were lots of people who hated her, who were close to the people she killed. Wouldn't it be a knife's edge for John if she were killed by, say, the older sister of a young man Mary assassinated? Because on the one hand, you want to hate and kill this person who killed your wife and unborn child, but on the other, how do you condemn someone for avenging the death of their own family? What an emotional mine field that would be! 

[leanne_maybe]

Wow - I have passed my 10th post! This hasn't been moderated, folks!

[T.o.b.y]

 

Some people were talking about Mary dying in season 4... I feel like she pretty much has to, for many reason, not least of which because

the actress has said that she took the role because she knew she would get to "die in John Watson's arms" at some point, and because Mofftiss have commented that they added Mary to the show with the idea in mind that they would eventually tackle writing John-Watson-the-Widower. So her death is imminent, it's just a question of how long they are going to drag it out.

 

 

Where and when did they say that? Just curious. It does not matter a bit anyway, because they also said repeatedly that Moriarty was dead.

 

As for Mary's child... This might be the nastiest thought I have had today, but what if that stuff Billy poured into her tea wasn't so good for it after all? Oh no, I really hope they didn't have that in mind. Imagine how horrible it would be if Sherlock killed John and Mary's baby by mistake. No, the writers can't be that cruel. Can they? No.

 

I should really shut up and go to sleep now...

[leanne_maybe]

Karie, I agree, I was angry with Lady Smallwood too for exactly the reason you said. Funnily enough I am not as angry with Mycroft - I expect it of him and anyway, I always think he has something up his sleeve!

I agree that it would be interesting if one of Mary's victims killed her in revenge. We again have already seen a foreshadowing in TSOT, when the photographer is murdering the Major in revenge for his relative being killed. It appeared that the Major killed by accident, whereas Mary certainly didn't, so there would be even more feeling for revenge. Also when the photographer said 'i'm not the one who should be arrested' Mary looked shocked so I dare say it crossed her mind!