Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Shadow Dweller]

In this series, Sherlock seems more like a pawn rather than a true player when it come to cloak and dagger business. Almost like Mofftiss draw a clear line between both Holmes brothers' worlds, one for the dirty side of the running of a country and one for gallivanting the streets as a detective. Romantic wishful thinking aside, I would be more inclined to think that Sherlock's mission to EU is only yet another tally in political game played in high circle. It is irrational to send a famous person like that for undercover mission. It would be different if he was sent there as a sleeper or a long-term agent, effectively on exile from the motherland. Remember that Mycroft himself estimated that he will be dead within six months, means it is not a mission that require a famous person. Looking at the game-playing that often happen in politics as well as business, it is a test for Mycroft; Sherlck or England. If Sherlock then his political enemies will gain a weapon to undermine his authority and maybe even to strip his influence bit by hit. England, means his focus will be split between motherland and his faraway brother, again an issue with potential to exploit in the future. Am I paranoid or just tends to think in power play frame? :p

[Arcadia]

We can always go back to discussing that deleted Magnussen scene. Licking Lady Smallwood's face was creepy enough, but practically starting foreplay on a drugged up Sherlock in hospital was extraordinarily creepy.

Oooghghgh, just as I'm about to have dinner, too. No thanks!

 

In fact, must run and rescue roast from oven....

[sfmpco]

Well, Sherlock has an international reputation but is he internationally famous like a celebrity?  The latter I doubt.  Even Isaac's mother didn't know who he was.  As Mary said, "See?  That does happen."  He's definitely a bit of a celebrity in Britain and certainly his exploits with Scotland Yard have earned him an international reputation in police circles, but I'm not certain how well he is known outside of Britain.  He had a case in Belarus, but the guy was English and probably had heard of him.

[Shadow Dweller]

This is the age of surveillance and face recognition softwares are readily available. I myself was involved in the development of one of them, I know some of the flexibility that is a must have in their capabilities. Sending Sherlock Holmes the dismantler of Moriarty's empire as an undercover agent is an idiotic move that practically begging to be used to 'review' the originator of the idea's suitability for his/her job. Heads will roll because of it and it might as well as be belong to some of Mycroft's political enemies.

[sfmpco]

Since we have secret operatives all the time... and Sherlock is supposed to be a master of disguise (although that theme has yet to be played with)... i have no doubt that he could have spent the better part of two years undercover.

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

:P

 

The end of an era is sad, but there is something else. I think I find it.

 

Mycroft's 'don't get involved'.

As confessed by him, in HoB, Sherlock did what he could to detach himself from feelings. I guess it should have started with Redbeard.

Yet, he got involved, and with that all his fears. For caring about others, their well being, for their safety, and for their happiness. Nothing good would come out from his vow, for him. He paid it dearly with TRF and HLV.

 

It's so true, isn't it. Getting involved, open up one's feeling, make you fragile. If we never care about something, it will never hurt us. Yet, we are not made of stone.

 

And then his doubt about what he believes and what he stands for. He felt he needed someone, he felt lonely, he felt left out.

It's so out of space, fish out of water.

So much so that he called Mycroft. Mycroft! And asked him to come, because he might be the only one that could strengthen what he believed, that he could survive without all those people, that it's still alright being alone, that it's still possible to be detached.

But no.

No turning back. Everything betrayed him. He got involved.

 

There. That's why TSoT is difficult to watch for me.

 

That's also why I think the betrayal of Mary hurt him much more than the bullet.

So TSoT is hard to watch because you know what it is leading to? Yes, I get that. Sherlock's being set up for a fall (by the writers) and all we can do is helplessly watch. And the audience is being set up too ... here we spend 8 episodes watching Sherlock become more human and thinking it was a good thing ... then suddenly we find out how awful the consequences can be. Ouch.

 

Still .... "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." At least, I hope that's what Sherlock will learn from this ... he's better off for having friends, even when it hurts, than to feel nothing at all. CAM felt nothing at all and look what he turned out to be.

 

....I don't know why people balk at the MI6 thing. ....

Well, let's see if I can explain it. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't like the idea because it robs Sherlock of his free agency. I prefer to think he's on no team except whichever one he chooses to be on. And also I guess because I trust Sherlock to make more human decisions if he's not a government spy. And finally, I'm fairly certain MI6 has rules which Sherlock doesn't follow, and I'm offended by the idea of anyone being allowed to follow his own rules with the blessing of a vast government agency. In short, I just prefer to believe Sherlock is on the outside, not the inside. Sorry about that.

 

Is there a place other than CAM's "reading" where it's established that Sherlock is MI6? Because the way CAM sees it seems pretty ambiguous to me:

 

"Brother: Mycroft Holmes

MI6 (see file)"

 

For all we know that could mean Mycroft is MI6, not Sherlock, couldn't it? Or that MI6 has a file on Sherlock, or that Sherlock's had some dealings with MI6 that CAM could use as a pressure point? Just one of a million little things Moftiss has chosen to torture us with by not explaining it... :D

 

Yes, it's crappy to love and lost, but it's so human. That's what Sherlock realised and that he tried to convince Mycroft in order to convince himself because he was afraid. It's unavoidable because he is such (not) a sociopath.

 

I'd like to think I wouldn't kill, but if it was between me and someone else and one of us was going to kill the other, I'd try to make sure I was the one left standing.  Okay, i know that isn't the CAM situation but Sherlock didn't just save John and Mary.  He saved whole countries and governments and everyone that CAM had ever bullied.

I might be a horrible human being for believing so, I think I would pull the trigger too.

 

(Fact aside that I have terrible accuracy and might end up shooting John or Mycroft instead)

[Van Buren Supernova]

 Am I paranoid or just tends to think in power play frame? :P

No. It's reality in real world. Every handshake, every statement, every condolences, every charity, humanity, there us always a taint of politic play to certain level.

 

Since we have secret operatives all the time... and Sherlock is supposed to be a master of disguise (although that theme has yet to be played with)... i have no doubt that he could have spent the better part of two years undercover.

I believe we saw it twice, although I'd love more.

He disguised as museum guard in TGG and soldier in TSoT. Do they count?

 

Ah. I reach the 200th page. It's about time before I have another row with the Multiquote.

[Arcadia]

In this series, Sherlock seems more like a pawn rather than a true player when it come to cloak and dagger business. Almost like Mofftiss draw a clear line between both Holmes brothers' worlds, one for the dirty side of the running of a country and one for gallivanting the streets as a detective. Romantic wishful thinking aside, I would be more inclined to think that Sherlock's mission to EU is only yet another tally in political game played in high circle. It is irrational to send a famous person like that for undercover mission. It would be different if he was sent there as a sleeper or a long-term agent, effectively on exile from the motherland. Remember that Mycroft himself estimated that he will be dead within six months, means it is not a mission that require a famous person. Looking at the game-playing that often happen in politics as well as business, it is a test for Mycroft; Sherlck or England. If Sherlock then his political enemies will gain a weapon to undermine his authority and maybe even to strip his influence bit by hit. England, means his focus will be split between motherland and his faraway brother, again an issue with potential to exploit in the future. Am I paranoid or just tends to think in power play frame? :P

If you are paranoid then so am I, because that makes perfect sense to me!

 

I might be a horrible human being for believing so, I think I would pull the trigger too.

 

(Fact aside that I have terrible accuracy and might end up shooting John or Mycroft instead)

[sfmpco]

Except for a water pistol, I've never held a gun.  Don't ever really want to either.

[Arcadia]

And congratulations to us!!!!        We have hereby started the 200th page  reached the 4000th post of the HLV thread! Is there a prize?

[sfmpco]

And congratulations to us!!!!        We have hereby started the 200th page  reached the 4000th post of the HLV thread! Is there a prize?

 

Uhm... no we are still 16 posts short.  Well, 15 after this one.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Well, let's see if I can explain it. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don't like the idea because it robs Sherlock of his free agency. I prefer to think he's on no team except whichever one he chooses to be on. And also I guess because I trust Sherlock to make more human decisions if he's not a government spy. And finally, I'm fairly certain MI6 has rules which Sherlock doesn't follow, and I'm offended by the idea of anyone being allowed to follow his own rules with the blessing of a vast government agency. In short, I just prefer to believe Sherlock is on the outside, not the inside. Sorry about that.

Is there a place other than CAM's "reading" where it's established that Sherlock is MI6? Because the way CAM sees it seems pretty ambiguous to me:

"Brother: Mycroft Holmes

MI6 (see file)"

For all we know that could mean Mycroft is MI6, not Sherlock, couldn't it? Or that MI6 has a file on Sherlock, or that Sherlock's had some dealings with MI6 that CAM could use as a pressure point? Just one of a million little things Moftiss has chosen to torture us with by not explaining it... :D

 

Forget to comment on this. I'm with you, I like to think that Sherlock would prefer being on his own.

He is like Moriarty, his big brother and all the King's horses couldn't make them do a thing they didn't want to.

 

Except for a water pistol, I've never held a gun. Don't ever really want to either.

Oh me too. Haven't even seen one and don't want to.

I have a guess about my level of accuracy by other harmless unimportant objects and targets that I had so far.

It's never close, I would be very safe playing with boomerang.

 

This will be #3987. Why we have different numbering?

[sfmpco]

How can the numbering be different for different people when it is all generated out of the same website?

[Arcadia]

 

And congratulations to us!!!!        We have hereby started the 200th page  reached the 4000th post of the HLV thread! Is there a prize?

 

Uhm... no we are still 16 posts short.  Well, 15 after this one.

 

 

This will be #3987. Why we have different numbering?

 

How can the numbering be different for different people when it is all generated out of the same website?

[Shadow Dweller]

Idem, also confused here about the numbering system. :D #3990

[joanneta1]

HLV is my least favorite episode, even behind TBB and TEH because they played with the concept insinuated in TGG: "I would never be one of them", he tells Dr Watson about heroes: :so they make him an anti-hero who is on the losing side from the moment he makes the faulty assumption ( I have mentioned elsewhere how that word is irksome coming from the mouth of Sherlock Holmes, since it always reminds me of the FBI agent admonishing Clarice against Dr Lecter) that because Magnussen showed him some envelopes re, actual, tangible proof must exist! In truth, I shall never forgive Mr Moffat for making an iconic character pick up a mysteriously undetected gun and shooting a defenseless man at point bland range, whatever the motive! It is the easy way out of a crippling oh baffling conundrum, and the creator, like ACD, got tired of his creation and decided to kill him by destroying his most important asset: his mind! Simply inexcusable and lazy.

[Caya]

There are apparently fifteen or so posts hidden within this thread that have been hidden (for being a double post or similar) but never deleted. Arcadia, as a mod, is therefore given a different number total, as am I.

 

 

Celebrations shall thus be slightly postponed .

[Shadow Dweller]

#3993

 

[STCooper1]

 

 

 

 

 

Sherlock isn't an agent for MI6 as far as we know, so his action of committing murder and high treason was completely wrong and illegal, and he deserved to be punished for them. As to Mycroft maybe having more plans brewing, I wouldn't be surprised given who and what he is.

 

Magnussen's file on Sherlock shows that he was/is MI6.  When Mycroft said "MI6.  They want to place you back into Eastern Europe" means that MI6 had placed him there before (probably the 2 years of dismantling Moriarty's network).  So he IS MI6.  For him to be a spy is part of original canon. I don't know why people balk at the MI6 thing. No one is trying to make him into James Bond.

 

His committing murder and high treason (if it really was high treason and not just part of a set-up with Mycroft to nail Magnussen) are, as you stated, completely wrong and illegal.  

 

I do believe Magnussen's guards were not so stupid as not to do their jobs.  But even Magnussen says "It's fine.  They're harmless!" So he probably didn't have them searched. Fatal mistake.

 

 

Incorrect, the guards were stupid as he put them out there for that reason. He hired them to do a job and they'd been with him a while, so Magnussen shouldn't have to tell them constantly to do their jobs and search the guests for weapons. They should have known to and did it, but they forgot and their boss wound up dead. The fact that he dismissed them after they brought in Holmes and Watson to him and later said " Its fine. They're harmless" proves he thought they were unarmed and that his guards had done the job he paid them for. Also, Magnussen's file on Holmes said nothing about him being MI6 and Mycroft's statement "back into Eastern Europe" doesn't mean he was an agent necessarily. It could have been just a passing reference to the fact Sherlock was there before as much as a statement that hes MI6 and that they had put him there. Its not expressly confirmed either way.

 

 

You need to look at Magnussen's read out on Sherlock again because it very specifically shows MI6.  

 

Also, the guards would have searched them.  That was their job.  Why didn't they?  I don't think they forgot.  Did they forget when they went to Sherlock's flat?  No.  Why would they ever "forget" at Magnussen's place?  They aren't stupid. That's what they are paid to do.  Why didn't they? It's all speculation but Magnussen clearly didn't suspect or feel any threat from them.

 

And yes, MI6 had placed him in Eastern Europe before.

 

 

No, Magnussen's read-out didn't say that Sherlock was MI6, but that his brother Mycroft was instead. So, no its not expressly confirmed in the episode that Sherlock either was or wasn't MI6. Yes they did forget, and those two at Appledore weren't among that were with Magnussen at Baker Street. They were two other, completely different guards, and though they may not have been completely stupid, they had a stupid moment when they forgot to do their jobs at Appledore as they'd been paid. Magnussen didn't have to tell them to do their job since they already knew to do it. Why would they forget then? Plot convenience. As an adaptation of Milverton, Magnussen was always going to die since hes too much to be defeated by Sherlock Holmes. Thats why they forgot. Predictable and cheap, yet simple.

[STCooper1]

Whether CAM was doing anything illegal or not isn't, I think, the point the writers were trying to make. The point is, CAM was ruining lives, and no one could stop him from doing it. No one, that is, until Lady Smallwood found someone who was willing to wind up in Hell if only it meant he could take Magnussen there with him.

 

Sherlock threatened as much when he was on the roof with Moriarty, but I have to admit, I didn't entirely believe him at the time. After CAM, I'm more inclined to believe him. (Although in my heart of hearts, I still don't, not really; in spite of everything, I have to think there are some levels Sherlock won't stoop to.)

 

Was shooting CAM legal? Most assuredly not. Was it justice? Ah, that's a harder one. While we're at it, was justice being done when Sherlock was sent into exile as punishment for murder? Or was justice being done when he was called back to the home he had sacrificed his future for? I think those are the kind of questions at the heart of the story, not questions about laws and legality. I guess that's yet another reason I love this episode; it asks questions that can't really be answered except in your own heart.

 

Morally and legally speaking, those questions can be answered. No, Magnussen's murder wasn't justice since he didn't deserve to die and murdering him was even worse than what he'd done. Sherlock being sent into exile initially for treason and murder was justice since he indeed deserved to be punished for the crimes he'd committed, but calling him back in four minutes was  an absolute mockery of justice.

[STCooper1]

I'd like to think I wouldn't kill, but if it was between me and someone else and one of us was going to kill the other, I'd try to make sure I was the one left standing.  Okay, i know that isn't the CAM situation but Sherlock didn't just save John and Mary.  He saved whole countries and governments and everyone that CAM had ever bullied.

 

Saved from being bullied? Yeah, thats a worthy cause for murder....not! 

[Arcadia]

Morally and legally speaking, those questions can be answered. No, Magnussen's murder wasn't justice since he didn't deserve to die and murdering him was even worse than what he'd done. Sherlock being sent into exile initially for treason and murder was justice since he indeed deserved to be punished for the crimes he'd committed, but calling him back in four minutes was  an absolute mockery of justice.

May I ask you a question? Legality aside, do you think it was "moral" of Magnussen to use people's flaws and weaknesses to control them?

 

If not ... if he was technically within the law, but behaving either immorally or amorally ... would it be appropriate for him to receive ANY kind of punishment, from anyone? Or is punishment acceptable only for those who have broken the law?

 

I hadn't really thought about it that way before, so I'm just curious what you think.

[STCooper1]

 

Morally and legally speaking, those questions can be answered. No, Magnussen's murder wasn't justice since he didn't deserve to die and murdering him was even worse than what he'd done. Sherlock being sent into exile initially for treason and murder was justice since he indeed deserved to be punished for the crimes he'd committed, but calling him back in four minutes was  an absolute mockery of justice.

May I ask you a question? Legality aside, do you think it was "moral" of Magnussen to use people's flaws and weaknesses to control them?

 

If not ... if he was technically within the law, but behaving either immorally or amorally ... would it be appropriate for him to receive ANY kind of punishment, from anyone? Or is punishment acceptable only for those who have broken the law?

 

I hadn't really thought about it that way before, so I'm just curious what you think.

 

 

No, it wasn't moral of Magnussen to use people's flaws and weaknesses to control them, it was very sinful. He wasn't breaking the law by doing it, however, since he wasn't truly a blackmailer. I think he deserved to be punished legally for the abduction of John by man if they can prove it by being put in prison, and for his other, technically legal, sins by God as divine judgement. However, he didn't deserve to be murdered since he'd never killed anybody or even had anyone killed that we see, and his abduction of John, whose life was in NO danger, doesn't warrant a death sentence. Overall, as a born-again Christian, my point of view is that if you can punish him LEGALLY then do it, but if you can't leave his punishment to God. "Vengeance is mine. I shall repay", says the Lord. As to other forms of punishment as retaliation, such as what Mary did when she knocked him out, I'm also against that as two wrongs don't make a right. I know you may not agree with my point of view and that many don't, however, that is my take on it and I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Yes, Magnussen deserved to be punished for his actions, but in a legal, sinless way only, and not through some illegal, immoral way even worse than him such as murder.

[sfmpco]

 

 

 

No, it wasn't moral of Magnussen to use people's flaws and weaknesses to control them, it was very sinful. He wasn't breaking the law by doing it, however, since he wasn't truly a blackmailer. I think he deserved to be punished legally for the abduction of John by man if they can prove it by being put in prison, and for his other, technically legal, sins by God as divine judgement. However, he didn't deserve to be murdered since he'd never killed anybody or even had anyone killed that we see, and his abduction of John, whose life was in NO danger, doesn't warrant a death sentence. Overall, as a born-again Christian, my point of view is that if you can punish him LEGALLY then do it, but if you can't leave his punishment to God. "Vengeance is mine. I shall repay", says the Lord. As to other forms of punishment as retaliation, such as what Mary did when she knocked him out, I'm also against that as two wrongs don't make a right. I know you may not agree with my point of view and that many don't, however, that is my take on it and I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Yes, Magnussen deserved to be punished for his actions, but in a legal, sinless way only, and not through some illegal, immoral way even worse than him such as murder.

 

 

Well, I am a born-again Christian too and there's at least one other on this forum.  That being said, we are dealing with a character who DOESN'T believe in God, who has extraordinary powers of observation, and who lives in a fictional world and who often operates above the laws of the land.  I expect Mycroft and Magnussen didn't believe in God either, and I don't impose Christian values on non-Christian characters.  It doesn't work.  Again, it's fiction.  It's not the real world.  Let's not forget the O.J. Simpson got off a murder charge when he was completely, totally guilty.  Justice doesn't always prevail regardless.  You try to preach the Gospel to Sherlock, try to point out the fallacy of evolution vs. creative design by an almighty God, and Sherlock will bury you under your own theology and leave you puppy-whipped in the corner.

 

No one gives a fig when thousands of people are likely killed by The Avengers smashing through buildings and sending rubble, glass and debris everywhere.  Leave it in the fictional world.

 

Let the laws of fiction stay fiction.  And yes, Magnussen was a blackmailer.

 

-----

 

I should also add that I am not saying that Sherlock should not be punished, but there is also such a thing as grace, and it's called a pardon, and he may very well have been pardoned in those 4 minutes.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Allow me to sneak in for a while..

 

Here, four hundred forty three point seven millilitre of beer for everyone, for cracking the 4000 post for this thread.

 

Please measure your own discharged volume, and keep out from the wardrobe.

 

Cheers! :)