Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Zain]

Amen. Bring him back to 221b.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't think I've ever guessed a Sherlock plot development correctly, so no doubt they will come up with something totally unexpected.

Moftiss live to shock and confuse us. 

 

 

No, a baby wouldn't have to make any difference to speak of. And whatever John does or does not, poor little Miss Watson will be in constant danger anyway from both Sherlock's and Mary's enemies. If that kid manages a whole series without being kidnapped at least once, I will seriously wonder what is wrong with the criminal classes.

Well, at least the criminals will now have an alternative to kidnapping John!

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

i don't know, with a friend like Sherlock and a wife like Mary, John may have to learn to sleep with at least one eye open.

[Arcadia]

Moftiss live to shock and confuse us. 

[T.o.b.y]

...risking your life in the service of your country and doing it for the thrill of the chase are very different things...

 

Oh, I don't know. Sherlock serves the country in his own way, and even Mycroft admits that by now: England needs him. And since he claims, though jokingly, that he'd be lost without his blogger, we might reason England needs John Watson, too.

 

Anyway, he had already begun to draw away from Sherlock after his marriage, so they would surely become more distanced when the baby arrives.

 

Personally, I think that glimpses of the Watsons playing Happy Families would be even more irritating than parentlock, and would further weaken the central dynamic between the two main characters. We saw very little indeed of Watson's marriage in the original ACD stories, which was a good thing, but I think that the strongest stories were those where Holmes and Watson were flatmates and we saw them at ease in each other's company, in the midst of domestic life, as well as during their adventures together.

 

There might be some distance, yeah, but ultimately, they'll run off with coat and gun on some ludicrous adventure, because that is what the story is about. So not to worry, I'd say. And personally, I think whatever John does between episodes when we're not looking on is up to him, so to speak. He's welcome to a happy family life taking his daughter to play group or going to marriage counseling with his wife of unknown identity or whatever. Just as long as I'm not forced to watch all of it... No, I'd be happy for John if it was implied he was happy, and I'll be fondly sad for Sherlock that he's lonely, but on the other hand, that is what Sherlock Holmes is supposed to be. If the writers want to really irritate me, they'll marry Sherlock off to Janine or worse.

 

The thing is, I've always wanted Mary to appear and see how things would change then. Because, come on, Sherlock was outrageous towards John during the first two series. Don't get me wrong, I love Sherlock, but really. Taking someone for granted doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

If Mary had never shown up, the wedding speech would never have happened, I am sure of that. She serves a huge purpose for the central dynamic, which even I am forced to admit at this point is turning out to be a big fat glaring love story, albeit, I still firmly believe, a platonic brotherly one.

 

I don't think it made much difference in the original stories whether Watson lived at Baker St or with his wife. He talks about not having seen Holmes for months, but when they're together on a case, it's just like before and Holmes is just as irritating and demanding and glorious as ever, although I do think the original figure was always more considerate towards Watson, even caring, in his own way. Still, I might as well admit my favorite moment is the end of "The Empty House" plus the beginning of "The Norwood Builder", where the duo is back together and 221b and apparently for good, although it later turns that last bit wasn't to be.

 

So, I'd be just as glad as anybody if John moved back, but I'm also very willing to accept an indefinite continuation of the dynamic as it was in series 3, because at least it is interesting and believable and John is happy. And I can't help but like Mary.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Posted Today, 12:22 AM

Slithytove, on 21 May 2014 - 6:27 PM, said:

...risking your life in the service of your country and doing it for the thrill of the chase are very different things...

 

Oh, I don't know. Sherlock serves the country in his own way, and even Mycroft admits that by now: England needs him. And since he claims, though jokingly, that he'd be lost without his blogger, we might reason England needs John Watson, too.

 

Slithytove, on 21 May 2014 - 6:27 PM, said:

Anyway, he had already begun to draw away from Sherlock after his marriage, so they would surely become more distanced when the baby arrives.

 

Personally, I think that glimpses of the Watsons playing Happy Families would be even more irritating than parentlock, and would further weaken the central dynamic between the two main characters. We saw very little indeed of Watson's marriage in the original ACD stories, which was a good thing, but I think that the strongest stories were those where Holmes and Watson were flatmates and we saw them at ease in each other's company, in the midst of domestic life, as well as during their adventures together.

 

There might be some distance, yeah, but ultimately, they'll run off with coat and gun on some ludicrous adventure, because that is what the story is about. So not to worry, I'd say. And personally, I think whatever John does between episodes when we're not looking on is up to him, so to speak. He's welcome to a happy family life taking his daughter to play group or going to marriage counseling with his wife of unknown identity or whatever. Just as long as I'm not forced to watch all of it... No, I'd be happy for John if it was implied he was happy, and I'll be fondly sad for Sherlock that he's lonely, but on the other hand, that is what Sherlock Holmes is supposed to be. If the writers want to really irritate me, they'll marry Sherlock off to Janine or worse.

 

The thing is, I've always wanted Mary to appear and see how things would change then. Because, come on, Sherlock was outrageous towards John during the first two series. Don't get me wrong, I love Sherlock, but really. Taking someone for granted doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

If Mary had never shown up, the wedding speech would never have happened, I am sure of that. She serves a huge purpose for the central dynamic, which even I am forced to admit at this point is turning out to be a big fat glaring love story, albeit, I still firmly believe, a platonic brotherly one.

 

I don't think it made much difference in the original stories whether Watson lived at Baker St or with his wife. He talks about not having seen Holmes for months, but when they're together on a case, it's just like before and Holmes is just as irritating and demanding and glorious as ever, although I do think the original figure was always more considerate towards Watson, even caring, in his own way. Still, I might as well admit my favorite moment is the end of "The Empty House" plus the beginning of "The Norwood Builder", where the duo is back together and 221b and apparently for good, although it later turns that last bit wasn't to be.

 

So, I'd be just as glad as anybody if John moved back, but I'm also very willing to accept an indefinite continuation of the dynamic as it was in series 3, because at least it is interesting and believable and John is happy. And I can't help but like Mary.

 

  Absolutely! Amen and amen and then some, T.o.b.y. In all reality, just how much were we shown of Holmes and Watson's personal lives throughout the canon?  Snippets, but everything centered around the case at hand.

[Slithytove]

 

 

...risking your life in the service of your country and doing it for the thrill of the chase are very different things...

Oh, I don't know. Sherlock serves the country in his own way, and even Mycroft admits that by now: England needs him. And since he claims, though jokingly, that he'd be lost without his blogger, we might reason England needs John Watson, too.

Anyway, he had already begun to draw away from Sherlock after his marriage, so they would surely become more distanced when the baby arrives.

 

Personally, I think that glimpses of the Watsons playing Happy Families would be even more irritating than parentlock, and would further weaken the central dynamic between the two main characters. We saw very little indeed of Watson's marriage in the original ACD stories, which was a good thing, but I think that the strongest stories were those where Holmes and Watson were flatmates and we saw them at ease in each other's company, in the midst of domestic life, as well as during their adventures together.

There might be some distance, yeah, but ultimately, they'll run off with coat and gun on some ludicrous adventure, because that is what the story is about. So not to worry, I'd say. And personally, I think whatever John does between episodes when we're not looking on is up to him, so to speak. He's welcome to a happy family life taking his daughter to play group or going to marriage counseling with his wife of unknown identity or whatever. Just as long as I'm not forced to watch all of it... No, I'd be happy for John if it was implied he was happy, and I'll be fondly sad for Sherlock that he's lonely, but on the other hand, that is what Sherlock Holmes is supposed to be. If the writers want to really irritate me, they'll marry Sherlock off to Janine or worse.

 

The thing is, I've always wanted Mary to appear and see how things would change then. Because, come on, Sherlock was outrageous towards John during the first two series. Don't get me wrong, I love Sherlock, but really. Taking someone for granted doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

If Mary had never shown up, the wedding speech would never have happened, I am sure of that. She serves a huge purpose for the central dynamic, which even I am forced to admit at this point is turning out to be a big fat glaring love story, albeit, I still firmly believe, a platonic brotherly one.

 

I don't think it made much difference in the original stories whether Watson lived at Baker St or with his wife. He talks about not having seen Holmes for months, but when they're together on a case, it's just like before and Holmes is just as irritating and demanding and glorious as ever, although I do think the original figure was always more considerate towards Watson, even caring, in his own way. Still, I might as well admit my favorite moment is the end of "The Empty House" plus the beginning of "The Norwood Builder", where the duo is back together and 221b and apparently for good, although it later turns that last bit wasn't to be.

 

So, I'd be just as glad as anybody if John moved back, but I'm also very willing to accept an indefinite continuation of the dynamic as it was in series 3, because at least it is interesting and believable and John is happy. And I can't help but like Mary.

I think we can cheerfully agree to disagree about Mary. You like Mary and I liked her too, right up to the moment that she shot Sherlock. Now she could dedicate the rest of her life to caring for orphaned kittens and I'd still be praying for her comeuppance.

 

I suppose it's a bit mean of me to want to deny John a happy married life, but I do have my reasons. One is that the central relationship between John and Sherlock - whether you see it as friendship, platonic love or the most passionate Johnlock - is the heart and soul of the story, and a third party weakens it. It would have been the same if Sherlock had suddenly set up home with Victor Trevor, for instance, and left John out in the cold. (Though I would like Victor to turn up now and redress the balance a bit, so Sherlock isn't stuck with being the rather sad third wheel in the Watsons's relationship.)

 

To be honest, I liked the outrageous way Sherlock treated John when they were flatmates. It was a big part of the show's fun. Maybe we did see only snippets of domestic life in Baker Street, in both the original and modern incarnations, but they were important snippets. They added detail and texture to the shared existence of these men.

 

I must also confess that another reason why I don't want the continuing saga of the Watsons's marriage in S4 is that I don't want to see John living in domestic bliss with Sherlock's killer. It isn't the only issue - I'm hoping we don't get loads of Baby Watson either, though the poor thing is an innocent - but I'll admit it is a factor. It just seems so wrong.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

True they are important snippets but the case was always what was important.....and this series gives us a little more because it is a show about a Consulting Detective....not a detective show and we got to see more of the dynamics between Sherlock and John and for all we know may be what we get in Season Four.  Mofftiss may tease us and mess with our heads but we still may get more of John and Sherlock without inflicting to much of John's marital life upon us. Yes, I know that is a question and people are getting all worked about it. I'm just not sure that we are not jumping way ahead of ourselves here.

 

 Yes, I know that people are all for hating Mary Morstan thinking her damnable. She's human, obviously she has made bad choices. But it is not for we mere humans to damn anyone. We don't have that power, the Creator....or so I've been taught.... reserves that right for It's self. We are to hate the sin yes, but not the sinner. We are to forgive and not judge. Especially a fictional character.

 

 Doyle didn't damn Sherlock Holmes for being a power unto himself. He just got tired of him and believed Holmes was keeping him from more important work. Yes, Doyle did try to kill Holmes off. He's a fictional character, that happens all the time.  The "Game of Thrones" has become famous for the demise of most if not all of the main characters.

 

  But when ever Doyle needed to build up his bank account, to whom did he turn?  Always?

 

  I'm more then happy to just wait and see with out driving myself crazy in agonizing about things that haven't happened yet and may never happen. It's been an interesting ride so far and I'm paying my ticket for the next three rounds.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Nicely phrased, Fox.     Now if the rest of us can just restrain ourselves from getting all worked up.... 

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

Oh, but Carol, it's fun to get a little worked up now and then!

 

 

I suppose it's a bit mean of me to want to deny John a happy married life, but I do have my reasons. One is that the central relationship between John and Sherlock - whether you see it as friendship, platonic love or the most passionate Johnlock - is the heart and soul of the story...

To be honest, I liked the outrageous way Sherlock treated John when they were flatmates. It was a big part of the show's fun.

 

Oh, I loved it too! I really did, I liked Sherlock the best at his most "sociopathic" and rude. Series 1 is my favorite still. But even though I didn't expect to, I find myself really appreciating the character development of Sherlock. It's not something you usually see on a crimes show, is it? Most detectives just are, whoever they are, and only the cases vary.

 

And of course it's the heart and soul of the story, you won't get any disagreement from me there, cheerful or otherwise. I'm sure it'll stay that way, and in my humble opinion, Mary doesn't detract from that at all, not the way they've written her into the story so far. She merely takes it in new directions. I mean, just look at how they did the wedding. That episode was about two people, and they were not John and Mary...

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I don't mind getting worked up......I just know I have to sit on it awhile.....figure out whats pushing my buttons then mull over the why.   I''m certainly not going to go off on a character just because he/she makes me feel so strongly about something. I can understand the passionate emotions especially as they center around Sherlock Holmes and John Watson. But I am going to trust them to figure things out and do  a better job at it then I could.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't mind getting worked up......I just know I have to sit on it awhile.....figure out whats pushing my buttons then mull over the why.   I''m certainly not going to go off on a character just because he/she makes me feel so strongly about something. I can understand the passionate emotions especially as they center around Sherlock Holmes and John Watson. But I am going to trust them to figure things out and do  a better job at it then I could.

 

... or in any case, they (meaning Moftiss, not Sherlock and John) are gonna do whatever they are gonna do.  It's their show, and we're just along for the ride.  So we might as well either figure out how to enjoy it or else jump ship.  I'm not wanting to jump ship, not yet anyhow, so I guess that's why I tend to rationalize things as best I can.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Nope.....I'll go down with this ship.....to borrow a line.  They haven't come any where near to disappointing me, not by a long shot so I'm in for the long haul.

[Caya]

*sigh* Do I ever envy you. I've decided to watch the next launch from the pier and then decide whether or not to get on board again, to borrow your diction.

[by the sea]

Well, I check my mailbox every day to see if the letter has come in from Moftiss asking me to be a story consultant   ... and ... disappointed as I am that it hasn't arrived yet  ,  I feel I can trust them to carry on delivering the most fun shows on television without my input.  They've managed to turn out nine of them so far, so I'm thinking they can probably churn out three or six or maybe even nine more,  in spite of some viewers' discomfort with certain characters or situations.  So, Moftiss, you bad guys you ! ... you can count on me to be watching whenever you come up with some new shows !  

 

Debbie

[Caya]

Must one really be one hundred per cent convinced, applauding-every-decision, check-disbelief-by-the-door fan to love Sherlock, though? I am aware (and I resent the implication that I'm not) that I wouldn't make a good story consultant. I realize that Moffat and Gatiss are enormously creative and brilliant screenwriters. But I still refuse to turn off my common sense and swallow everything they bring into the storyline, no matter how contrived or illogical. If that casts me from the ranks of the true fans, so be it.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think that there is definitely room for every single one of us no matter where we are in the fandom. I don't turn my brain off, but this series is so fun and yes, thought provoking but that is what I would expect from anything about Sherlock Holmes. I know that doesn't always prove true but for BBC Sherlock it surely does.

[Caya]

Yeah, well, could we all go a bit easier on the absolutes, then (definitely including myself here)? Every time I read something like "it's not for you to damn Mary" or "oh, you don't like her? You must be a Johnlocker" (so what if I were? Would that invalidate my opininion?) I find myself a little more removed from this community, and that hurts. Let's try to accept that the book is very much open on s3, and will remain so for a year and half, at least. Until then, nobody has any definite answer on anything.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Nope we definitely don't. But when someone says that anyone deserves to be damned....it really hits close to home, because I have been taught that no matter what mistakes one has made there is hope of redemption. Maybe Mary hasn't earned hers in the eyes of the fandom but that still is not for us to judge.   Human's make horrible mistakes, all the time. It's just what humans do, every day.

[T.o.b.y]

Yeah, well, could we all go a bit easier on the absolutes, then (definitely including myself here)? Every time I read something like "it's not for you to damn Mary" or "oh, you don't like her? You must be a Johnlocker" (so what if I were? Would that invalidate my opininion?) I find myself a little more removed from this community, and that hurts. Let's try to accept that the book is very much open on s3, and will remain so for a year and half, at least. Until then, nobody has any definite answer on anything.

 

... and I seriously doubt we'll have many definite answers even after series 4. There will be a lot more questions though, I am sure!

 

Fox, I totally agree with you about judging real people, but in my little world, fictional characters are fair game when it comes to hating, loving, judging, accusing or wishing them dead. I can't hurt them, can I? Of course, if I extended that to the writers, that would be terrible. Or the actors. Oh my god, when I read that Ms Abbington has allegedly received death threats from viewers who dislike Mary Morstan, I want to travel to England and apologize to her in person for something I didn't even do, even though I can well imagine a woman as successful as that wouldn't give a hoot anyway what some nutter has to say about her.

 

For example, I have a lot of nasty things to say about Mycroft, and I must say, I quite enjoy that (dear Mycroft, please don't die, after all - whom would I rant about?), but I'd never, ever dream of extending that to Mark Gatiss! And I am totally, unashamedly gaga over Sherlock but I'd sooner bite my tongue off than openly analyze every flicker of Mr Cumberbatch's face on a semi-public internet forum (well... yeah, I know Sherlock's face is technically his face, but... there's a difference. I hope. Very fervently.)

 

[Arcadia]

One "real world" thing I would LUV to find out - but probably never will - is how much of what ends up on the screen is the actors' interpretation, how much is the directors' interpretation, and how much is the express intention of Moftiss. I don't know why, exactly, but that would make me happy. Or at least, I hope less confused! I find I'm learning to live with confusion tho. At this point I'll be happy to see whatever they come up with next time around. If no questions are answered, I'll have fun ranting about the new questions!

[Pamela]

One "real world" thing I would LUV to find out - but probably never will - is how much of what ends up on the screen is the actors' interpretation, how much is the directors' interpretation, and how much is the express intention of Moftiss. I don't know why, exactly, but that would make me happy. Or at least, I hope less confused! I find I'm learning to live with confusion tho. At this point I'll be happy to see whatever they come up with next time around. If no questions are answered, I'll have fun ranting about the new questions!

Arcadia, I know exactly what you mean!  So many times I wonder whether something like a reaction or an expression is the actor's, the director's, or the writer's.  It would just be a really neat thing to know.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh I can boo, hiss and throw cotton and pop corn balls at the screen along with the best of 'em.....but damn them.....naw......but then I know the hero will deal with 'em. I don't have to loath them....no way.  But even in some games even the most evil villains can be given redemption points......interesting concept.

[Slithytove]

Hmm, a lot of food for thought here, after reading these recent comments.....

 

I should start by saying that, despite my rage over Mary and my wish to shake John until he sees sense, I thoroughly enjoyed HLV - in fact, it is very close to TSoT as my favourite episode of the series. I know a lot of people didn't like the mind palace sequence but I loved it. It's one of my favourite parts of the entire show. Poor baby Sherlock, I feel for him so much.

 

I'm another of those folk who can't switch off and suspend belief entirely. However much I'm enjoying an episode, my mind is going, "How could you not know you're bleeding to death, just because you were stabbed through your belt?", "How could anyone think you were reading data through your Google glasses when they know you store none of your information on computers?" or "Surgery? Really? You really think a bullet there wouldn't guarantee a life-threatening injury?"......I can't help it.

 

I've got admit that I feel perfectly happy about judging fictional characters. (And also pretty happy about giving my opinion, in public, about the loveliness of Benedict Cumberbatch. He's hardly likely to read it and, if he did, he surely wouldn't be upset by a comment to the effect that he is unusually beautiful). If we're honest, I think that most of us would also judge a real-life person who had a history of killing people, and anyone who shot a witness who saw them threatening another man's life. I believe in tolerance and live-and-let-live but it doesn't make you a bad person to have a negative opinion of murderers, whether real or fictional.

 

Caya mentioned Johnlockers and I admit to being one, but I don't think it plays a major role in forming an opinion about Mary. Yes, I want to see John back in Baker Street and maybe a little bit of that is due to Johnlock, but I liked Mary in the first two episodes, particularly the way she understood that John & Sherlock needed each other. In fact, the effect of Mary on Johnlock has been greatly exaggerated. It has not "sunk the ship.". For instance, a surprising amount - maybe the majority - of fanfic writers who include Mary in their stories are in favour of her, but both pro- and anti-Marys have taken a robust approach to her presence, from imagining polyamorous relationships to happily killing her off. Whatever the writers's attitudes to Mary, there seems to be a general consensus that she does not get in the way of Sherlock's love for John and vice versa.

 

As for people saying nasty things to Amanda.....Well, some people are morons and can't distinguish fact from fiction. Such idiots should not affect the way one responds to a character. You can dislike a fictional person without being contaminated by the stupidity of people who confuse the character with the actor. Similarly, it's ridiculous to make people feel bad about liking or disliking a person who, after all, is only the product of someone's imagination. I've noticed several writers practically apologising for writing fanfic where Mary is a baddie. (Maybe pro-Mary writers do the same, and I just haven't noticed it.). People shouldn't have to feel this way. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. As the Duke of Wellington said, "Publish and be damned!"

[Arcadia]

Speaking of the lovliness of Mr. Cumberbatch, I hope this is still timely wherever you all are.....