Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 I have my hope on Victor Trevor as an intermediary.

 

I became curious about this Victor Trevor character so I googled and Wikipediad.  Wow so many images of Victor Trevor are Tom HIddleston, lol.  Has anything been announced about him joining the series?  Or do the fan art people just like him as Victor?  It seems like an interesting an idea to explore.  I would love to see John's jealousy at realizing that he is not Sherlock's first "John Watson" 

 

John needs to appreciate Sherlock more - maybe Victor Trevor will bring that out.  Good thinking Zain!  

 

 

It's actually only in HLV that I ever felt that Sherlock was not appreciated enough by John. Usually, it's been the other way around - or, at least, that Sherlock has taken advantage of their friendship more so than John has.

 

But anyway, I'd like to explore what John might feel if faced with Victor Trevor.

[Zain]

And what a debate I've started ~ I did not intend for my comment to turn into serious contemplation.

Maybe it is time we try to settle this. Everybody who dislikes Mary or her actions could say something nice about her, and those who defend her actions or her character state something they dislike about her. For example, I think her character did one good thing to s3. If it hadn't been for Mary, John would have had no place to go, and Sherlock would not have to contemplate the consequences of his fall and lying. John would have "given in" much sooner. And it would have burdened their friendship. Because Mary was there for John, Sherlock had to face reality.

 

 

I hope Mary isn't entirely "off the hook" yet. She shows no remorse (about having been an assasin). Sherlock's sacrifice was extraordinary, but it only really works for me if Mary realises that she doesn't deserve it.

 

What has been bothering me all this time about His Last Vow is
1) Sherlock and Mary tell John that he chose her because he likes danger and dangerous people. Yes, John likes danger, but he's not attracted to dangerous persons. Look at Moriarty and Irene. He likes an element of danger in his life, but he's appaled by vicious behavior in people. Mary's past does not appeal to him, so it feels wrong to me to have Mary say, "Don't worry; I'll keep him in trouble." But I'm willing to believe that her kind of "trouble" nowadays is of a of a more good-natured sort. I would hate to think that John would be fine with her taking up arms again. Sherlock might not mind; him being who he is, but that's not the John I know.

2) It has felt like Mary comes between John and Sherlock, by being married to John and risking Sherlock's life, and John forgives her for it. But I'm rethinking my position on that. Sherlock forgives her long before John does, and tries to mend the gap between the two. John may not want his help at first, but eventually he is grateful for it, as we see in the Christmas scene ("That's the thing with Sherlock; it's always the unexpted," he says fondly). I guess my issue has been that I didn't forgive Mary, so to see Sherlock's acceptance and John's forgiveness was like eating dirt. Completely unnatural. Mary is in some ways cold and in other ways a warm person. She has both sides. I'm sure Sherlock, with this logic and sometimes cold reasoning, appreciates both sides. John appreciates the warm person, but I don't think he likes the cold side to her, anymore than he ever did when it comes to Sherlock. He may value Sherlock's reasoning in some aspects, but certainly not all the time. Even Sherlock himself knows that it doesn't always hold up. ("John, I am a ridiculous man, redeemed only by the warmth and constancy of your friendship.")

 

Basically, I would like to see evidence that Mary really cares for Sherlock, as I'm not entirely sure at this point. Maybe I'm just being silly, though. She did, after all, show remorse (about shooting Sherlock), and she phoned the ambulance. I don't really believe she would have shot Sherlock when she met with him at Leinster Gardens. Part of her coldness seems to be a facade that comes down when she is faced with John, who now knows that she shot Sherlock, but still doesn't know that she used to be an assasin. And that's another thing: John is not just angry with Mary for her past or for lying to him. At this point, he doesn't know the extent of that. He only learns as much later that night in Baker Street. At first, his anger is about her shooting Sherlock, and about seeing that she has deceived him about her identity.

 

At least, this is how I'm looking at it now. If Mary comes between the two men, it is more likely because
1) John is married, and his marriage comes first. I'm not saying I like that, but it's not Mary's fault. It's the writers' I hold out hope that Mary will have less of a role in the next episode than she did in HLV.

2) John has issues with Sherlock, and an inner conflict with himself. He doesn't like being bossed around ("I'll text you if I'm available"), and he's not happy with being told that he needs an adrenaline fix every now and then. And now he has another place to go to (Mary), if he gets tired of Sherlock's behavior.
 

I hope the two men manages to work on their issues, and if not, well, they've always accepted the other as they are, so I think they'll be fine.

 

I do wish that Mary will be out of the show again at some point. I feel, like some others have said, that the show should be about Sherlock and John. Not Sherlock, John, and Mary. But, alas, I may have to accept that she could be here to stay. If so, maybe ending the show with series 4 wouldn't be such a bad idea.

 

Added: But I dare hope she isn't there to stay, and that the show continues for years to come

 

 

Wiser words have rarely been written. I think you summed it up rather well. While we at times do not see eye to eye, this time I wholeheartedly second your comment.

 

 

 

What I want to see in S4 is You and me against the world again. A couple of nice cases wouldn't go amiss either .

 

 

"You and me against the world" in a sense that does mean a singular you, a John, not a John and Mary, I hope

I sorely missed this deep understanding in s3, and yes, it is only natural that John has other priorities now. But while it may be nice to give him some background, I think it is detrimental to the show. There are, as you stated, enough boring romance shows out there. That's not what I signed up for when I fell in love with Sherlock. I came for the amazing friendship, and I will not stay for a crime show that resembles so many others. I am already bored to death with this kind of show that highlights the main characters' families and how interesting their daily struggles are, and yes, let's talk a quarter of an hour about my wife's pregnancy, and did you know the neighbour's daughter's ex-friend died in a car crash?... Tedious. Boring. Dull. Reminds me of Lucy's Complex Dilemma. 

I feel like they got their priorities tangled up. The writers, and the characters.

 

 

 

I became curious about this Victor Trevor character so I googled and Wikipediad.  Wow so many images of Victor Trevor are Tom HIddleston, lol.  Has anything been announced about him joining the series?  Or do the fan art people just like him as Victor?  It seems like an interesting an idea to explore.  I would love to see John's jealousy at realizing that he is not Sherlock's first "John Watson" 

 

John needs to appreciate Sherlock more - maybe Victor Trevor will bring that out.  Good thinking Zain!  

 

 

Glad to have inspired you ~ One more on my way to promote Victor Trevor!

I fear it is simply fanart. But I would love for Hiddleston to play Victor. 

It would be kind of fair, wouldn't it? John showed Sherlock that he could do without him. So why shouldn't Sherlock have someone else to depend on, too? Even if it's just an old friend, someone he could share a few days with. S3 was just too much Sherlock!whump not to want to give him some happiness, too.

 

I know it must be annoying to some people that I drop his name every couple of posts lately. I am trying to "spread the word", so to speak.... I will try to rein myself in, though. 

[Caya]

Maybe it is time we try to settle this. Everybody who dislikes Mary or her actions could say something nice about her, and those who defend her actions or her character state something they dislike about her.

 

*grinds her teeth* Okay, something nice about Mary ... she's not a damsel in distress, that's for sure. Yeah, Moftiss still managed to make Sherlock rescue her from Big Bad Magnussen, but that's hardly her fault, now is it. She would've taken care (note: I don't think killing is a solution per se, but it's not as if Sherlock the brainiac had come up with any better solution either) of Magnussen months ago, after all, if the boys had kept out of it.

[Arcadia]

Oh, I think I can probably find plenty of things to say against Mary; I insult Sherlock all the time and I adore him. :-) I just want to say, first, tho, that I don't defend her or her actions ... I accept her because Sherlock and John do. (And, okay, she was wonderful to Sherlock in the first two episodes... )

 

But it's easy to dislike her; she thinks shooting someone (to kill or not) is an appropriate solution to her problems. No, I can't find anything to like about that at all, in Mary or any other character.

[Zain]

 

. I accept her because Sherlock and John do. (And, okay, she was wonderful to Sherlock in the first two episodes... )

 

 

Oh!

That is interesting. Indeed.

 

I never paid attention to one's first perception of Mary and its possible relation to one's perception of her character at the end of s3.

 

You see, I thought her behavior rather condescending. A bit stuck-up. She always seemed a bit cold/calculating to me, at least when she talked to Sherlock. Not so much when she talked about him. I never pictured them as true "bosom buddies." I figured Sherlock wanted to be okay with her because otherwise he would have lost John.

 

Of course one might argue that I might recall my thoughts on her more negatively than they were because every recollection is influenced by one's present attitude. But I jotted down similiar thoughts back then, so I suppose I can trust my memory in that particular regard. Yes, I wasn't particular endeared to her, and I didn't think her relationship with Sherlock all that friendly. It was simply practical for them to get along. I didn't see more behind it.

 

So maybe that is part of why I have a hard time picturing any good intention behind her actions in HLV. To me, she never seemed to particularly care about Sherlock in the first place. To Sherlock as a person, that is (apart from his role as John's best friend). I never had the impression he was more to her than that, or that she wanted to connect to him beyond that. Yes, we were told they talked to each other but these talks seemed to revolve around John (like about his weight gain).

 

That is an interesting point. I'll have to ponder that a bit more. But it makes sense, in a way. If one isn't inclined towards a character, it gets harder to be convinced in their favor, especially with a lack of information. Let's face it, we basically were told nothing about her motivation, reasons, or her past. Anything and everything that could redeem her was kept back. I'd almost dare to accuse the writers of deliberately misleading the audience. Well, not misleading, maybe. But I suppose it will be important in the next season, and that's why they decided to forego the details and went with some emotional gestures.

[Slithytove]

Well, I liked Mary a lot in the first two episodes - warm, droll and understanding about the depth of John and Sherlock's friendship. I liked nothing about her in HLV, so I can't say anything nice about her there.

 

I've seen it pointed out somewhere - probably on archiveofourown.org - that there are actually two Marys in S3, because Amanda Abbingdon was told nothing about the way her character would develop in HLV. So she did not know Mary's backstory as an assassin or that she would go on to hurt Sherlock. As a result, it is pointless to look to TEH or TSoT for any clues about her motivation and, as the meta writer pointed out, impossible for Amanda to express the character's darker side in those episodes. As a result, we get a Mary who is sweetness and light in two episodes and cold and dangerous in the third, almost as if they are two different people. I agree with the writer that Amanda might have been able to give a more subtly nuanced performance in TEH and TSoT if she had had any idea what was coming in HLV.

 

As for John having to grieve for Mary, after grieving for Sherlock - well, chin up, John, I'm sure you'll pull through. After all, your predecessor, ACD's Dr Watson, managed to cope with both losses. In fiction, people deal with repeated loss which, in real life, would be enough to break anyone. That's part of the beauty of fictional characters, that their hearts can be so much stronger than our own. Let's kill off Mary and move John back in 221b, like Conan Doyle did. Or, if the writers can't bring themselves to kill her - and they seem reluctant to let any major characters die - then let her take Baby Watson and run far, far away. And John can move back into Baker Street.....

[Zain]

This just completely reminded me of Scar from Lion King. "Run. Run far away and never come back." sorry. Very unproductive post but it somehow became stuck in my head. I really cannot explain what is going on with me. It must be a decade since I last watched it....

[Arcadia]

Well, I just liked the way she sort of took Sherlock's side from the start, and the way she said "I like him."  And the way she interacts with him in TSo3 is teasing, but in a kind, not hurtful, way. She seemed to get immediately that the way to bring out the best in Sherlock was to treat him well. So, yeah, I liked her, alot. But if Sherlock had said in HLV "you can't trust her, you've got to get rid of her...." then I'm pretty sure I would loathe her now. Because I have no will of my own, apparently.

[T.o.b.y]

Well, I liked Mary a lot in the first two episodes - warm, droll and understanding about the depth of John and Sherlock's friendship. I liked nothing about her in HLV, so I can't say anything nice about her there.

 

I've seen it pointed out somewhere - probably on archiveofourown.org - that there are actually two Marys in S3, because Amanda Abbingdon was told nothing about the way her character would develop in HLV. So she did not know Mary's backstory as an assassin or that she would go on to hurt Sherlock. As a result, it is pointless to look to TEH or TSoT for any clues about her motivation and, as the meta writer pointed out, impossible for Amanda to express the character's darker side in those episodes. As a result, we get a Mary who is sweetness and light in two episodes and cold and dangerous in the third, almost as if they are two different people. I agree with the writer that Amanda might have been able to give a more subtly nuanced performance in TEH and TSoT if she had had any idea what was coming in HLV.

 

As for John having to grieve for Mary, after grieving for Sherlock - well, chin up, John, I'm sure you'll pull through. After all, your predecessor, ACD's Dr Watson, managed to cope with both losses. In fiction, people deal with repeated loss which, in real life, would be enough to break anyone. That's part of the beauty of fictional characters, that their hearts can be so much stronger than our own. Let's kill off Mary and move John back in 221b, like Conan Doyle did. Or, if the writers can't bring themselves to kill her - and they seem reluctant to let any major characters die - then let her take Baby Watson and run far, far away. And John can move back into Baker Street.....

 

Mhm, good point, I'd heard that before. But it doesn't stop me from hugely enjoying the sweet, nice Mary we meet because of course Mary knows and I get a huge kick out of characters like that. Besides, I assume the director knew, didn't he? Or somebody? At the wedding, for example, Mary makes some faces during Sherlock's speech that are very easy to make sense of in the light of what we later learn about her.

 

As for John, I'm not saying the character couldn't take it if Mary died, I'm just not sure I could. And how would they show him dealing with the shock of the event and the following grief without a repetition of what we saw at the end of series 2 and the beginning of series 3? And how to avoid tasteless comparisons à la "now, for whom did he cry more"? I'd just think it'd be tragic overkill to have something like that happen again, and so soon. I do like a bit of drama and I hugely enjoyed His Last Vow, but I'm kind of hoping the show will calm down a bit and not take us straight to the next emotional tornado.

 

Hmmm, what do I say about Mary? I can think of plenty of good and bad things.

 

Hm, I like her because she is charming and funny and nice to look at and has a pleasant voice. I believe that she really does love John and care about her friends, and I think she has genuine sympathy for Sherlock as well. I don't mind the shooting, because it gave us that glorious mind palace "I am analyzing my own murder and death" sequence, which I love, and I like her better with a dark past than I would if there was really nothing more to her than Mary Morstan, good nurse and loving wife.

 

I don't like the particulars of her backstory as far as we know them, but that's hardly Mary's fault. I would have liked something more original and a bit easier to believe, but then, I can't think of anything better myself, so I should probably just shut up about it.

 

What I don't like about her is how she treats Sherlock. While I do get the impression that she genuinely likes him, it is very fitting that he speaks of himself as her "baby". She doesn't seem to take him seriously. The very first time she sees him, she's laughing at him and while she sits by and watches him and John trying to sort out the last two years, with spectacularly bad success, she gives me the impression of suppressing a giggle the whole time, while I am choking back my tears, so to speak. She keeps making snide little comments about him, from "oh, he would have needed a confidante" to "his nibs". She teases John about him, she teases Sherlock about John, and while she does fall sobbing into her husband's arms, totally overcome by his magnanimity and forgiveness, we never once see her in any way acknowledge what Sherlock did to make that moment possible in the first place.

 

I suppose the writers chose this "not impressed" attitude of hers towards Sherlock because they thought it would appeal to female viewers and make her look strong and clever and so on, but it doesn't sit too well with me. I prefer Molly's adoring gaze, and if that means I'm not feminist enough, then so be it. Molly sees through Sherlock too, by the way. She's not naive about him at all.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

. I accept her because Sherlock and John do. (And, okay, she was wonderful to Sherlock in the first two episodes... )

 

 

Oh!

That is interesting. Indeed.

 

I never paid attention to one's first perception of Mary and its possible relation to one's perception of her character at the end of s3.

 

You see, I thought her behavior rather condescending. A bit stuck-up. She always seemed a bit cold/calculating to me, at least when she talked to Sherlock. Not so much when she talked about him. I never pictured them as true "bosom buddies." I figured Sherlock wanted to be okay with her because otherwise he would have lost John.

 

Of course one might argue that I might recall my thoughts on her more negatively than they were because every recollection is influenced by one's present attitude. But I jotted down similiar thoughts back then, so I suppose I can trust my memory in that particular regard. Yes, I wasn't particular endeared to her, and I didn't think her relationship with Sherlock all that friendly. It was simply practical for them to get along. I didn't see more behind it.

 

So maybe that is part of why I have a hard time picturing any good intention behind her actions in HLV. To me, she never seemed to particularly care about Sherlock in the first place. To Sherlock as a person, that is (apart from his role as John's best friend). I never had the impression he was more to her than that, or that she wanted to connect to him beyond that. Yes, we were told they talked to each other but these talks seemed to revolve around John (like about his weight gain).

 

That is an interesting point. I'll have to ponder that a bit more. But it makes sense, in a way. If one isn't inclined towards a character, it gets harder to be convinced in their favor, especially with a lack of information. Let's face it, we basically were told nothing about her motivation, reasons, or her past. Anything and everything that could redeem her was kept back. I'd almost dare to accuse the writers of deliberately misleading the audience. Well, not misleading, maybe. But I suppose it will be important in the next season, and that's why they decided to forego the details and went with some emotional gestures.

 

 

That is indeed interesting. My perception of Mary in TEH and TSoT was that she liked Sherlock (that was her initial reaction when meeting him under very unusual circumstances). Funny enough, the fact that she liked Sherlock then did not endear her to me - because at that point, Sherlock was being a bit of a pain in the neck. Other than that moment, I'm glad that she seemed to take to Sherlock. However, I never fell in love with her character, even prior to HLV. I liked her well enough, but I was bothered with a few things. I, too, got the impression that she was a bit arrogant (not much, just a little), but then again, Sherlock should have some competition once in a while

So, yeah, that could easily have an influence on our perception of Mary in HLV. I have a niece, who's a big Sherlock fan too, and she loves Mary, and always have. She also loved the twist in HLV. Just one more fact to support the theory.

 

Something I like about Mary's character in HLV is that she is complex. It's not easy to figure her out, because, like Sherlock, she has a cold and a warm side.

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

Something I like about Mary's character in HLV is that she is complex. It's not easy to figure her out, because, like Sherlock, she has a cold and a warm side.

 

Exactly. Very nicely put. That's what I enjoy about her the most.

 

 

[Caya]

Well lucky you who can see a warm side in her - all I can see is deception and a smile that never reaches her eyes. Man, I wish the writers had given us at least a little more about who the char ... I'm all for open interpretation but I feel like I keep clutching at straws.

[Dragonslayer]

All I can say is that I liked her very very much in the first two episodes.

I also do not hate her for what she did in e3,

but I do dislike he reactions when she says "people like Magnussen should be killed. That's why there are people like me." and "he's right. That's what you like. And you married me." Both very serious issues imo.

I do not want Mary to die in s4. That would be too many "deaths" in too short a time. And I want to judge the series as a whole first, and as pieces after that. s5 is right.

[sherlockandjohn]

Completely agree with your above input, Dragonslayer. Those are my main two issues with Mary as well. And, no, I don't really want her dead in s4, because that would be too dramatic, and quite frankly there was enough of that in s3. A certain amount is great, but s3 was a bit too heartbreaking.

Please, let's have some more case solving and a little less drama in s4.

[Zain]

I also agree that her death would be detrimental to the show. But I want her gone, as slightytove put so very nicely. If she cared for that child even one bit, she would have used Sherlock as leverage to get Mycroft to get her into witness protection. One of the reasons why I hope this pregnancy is fake. Because if it isn't... what kind of mother "ideal" are they portraying? Mary only uses the pregnancy when it is convenient for her, when she wants to pressure someone into doing what she wants (like at the beginning of HLV). And when it doesn't suit her plans, she completely disregards her responsibility to take care of herself for the child's sake.

 

No. No. She's just... too far away from my own character. I cannot even find any point at which I sympathize with her. She lacks any of the emotional parts which would make her accessible to me.

 

sherlockandjohn, you mentioned that you think Mary complex. Could you elaborate? I really have a hard time understanding that part of your post. I believe I've once stated that before: Mary seems very one-dimensional to me. It's like the writers took out anything and everything that could make her a round character. We get (imho) to see no development whatsoever beside the nasty surprise she kept in her locker. 

 

And I think slithytove is right. My theory might have some merit, and some of you proved it right, but it cannot fully explain the phenomenon. 

[Arcadia]

....

 

As for John, I'm not saying the character couldn't take it if Mary died, I'm just not sure I could. And how would they show him dealing with the shock of the event and the following grief without a repetition of what we saw at the end of series 2 and the beginning of series 3? And how to avoid tasteless comparisons à la "now, for whom did he cry more"? I'd just think it'd be tragic overkill to have something like that happen again, and so soon. I do like a bit of drama and I hugely enjoyed His Last Vow, but I'm kind of hoping the show will calm down a bit and not take us straight to the next emotional tornado.

I couldn't agree more to all of this. I really really really am not ready to watch John go thru emotional hell again.

 

What I don't like about her is how she treats Sherlock. While I do get the impression that she genuinely likes him, it is very fitting that he speaks of himself as her "baby". She doesn't seem to take him seriously. The very first time she sees him, she's laughing at him and while she sits by and watches him and John trying to sort out the last two years, with spectacularly bad success, she gives me the impression of suppressing a giggle the whole time, while I am choking back my tears, so to speak. She keeps making snide little comments about him, from "oh, he would have needed a confidante" to "his nibs". She teases John about him, she teases Sherlock about John....

That's so funny because that's exactly what I liked about her. When a grown man acts like a child, you treat him like one! If he has any brains, he'll get the point. But I just realized, even more important to me is that I like the way Sherlock responds to her. I liked the way he behaves (in both senses of the word) when he's around her (once he and John were reunited). As I said before, evidently I have no will of my own, I just take all my cues from Sherlock!

 

It occurs to me; he tried to be "nice" around Molly, too, but there it seemed forced, an act of will; with Mary he seemed at ease. Look at the smiles he gives her at the end of TEH. (And I am a complete sap for Sherlock's "genuine" smiles. Lord, what have I become.)

 

.... Man, I wish the writers had given us at least a little more about who the char ... I'm all for open interpretation but I feel like I keep clutching at straws.

Oh, I know! You and I don't see Mary the same way at all, I think, but they have given us almost nothing to go on. I am just hoping against hope there is a purpose to this that will be revealed in S4, and it's not just the writers jerking us around because they can. I can be patient, as long as I have faith that the writers' sense of story is still intact. But sometimes that faith gets a little, uh, tested.

 

All I can say is that I liked her very very much in the first two episodes.

I also do not hate her for what she did in e3,

but I do dislike he reactions when she says "people like Magnussen should be killed. That's why there are people like me." and "he's right. That's what you like. And you married me." Both very serious issues imo...

Again, couldn't agree more. Not exactly her finest moment.

 

..... get Mycroft to get her into witness protection......

Maybe she already is? Hey, it's a theory.

 

My theory might have some merit, and some of you proved it right, but it cannot fully explain the phenomenon.

Yes, that was a very astute observation. And sometimes we can't fully explain why we do or don't like people, can we? Something in our funny little brains that's out of our control .....

[T.o.b.y]

John has issues with Sherlock, and an inner conflict with himself. He doesn't like being bossed around ("I'll text you if I'm available"), and he's not happy with being told that he needs an adrenaline fix every now and then. And now he has another place to go to (Mary), if he gets tired of Sherlock's behavior.

 

John has issues, period. But you are right, the way he's portrayed, there's a certain grudging reluctance to his affection for his friend, which was there even before The Fall. I think I remember an interview a while back where Martin Freeman said John didn't really know why he wanted to be around Sherlock at all, and neither did the actor himself.

 

Makes sense, I guess - Sherlock doesn't exactly fit any description of "ideal friend". But then, he has the decided advantage of really liking John and pretty much accepting him the way he is, and somehow, I got the impression that not too many people do that, even though I think "all John's friends hate him" was probably a bit exaggerated. Besides, Sherlock is very interesting and he doesn't need to be small-talked to and in spite of any plans Janine might make, there is very little danger of boring tedious evenings involving "wine and sitting" with him.

 

That's so funny because that's exactly what I liked about her. When a grown man acts like a child, you treat him like one! If he has any brains, he'll get the point. But I just realized, even more important to me is that I like the way Sherlock responds to her. I liked the way he behaves (in both senses of the word) when he's around her (once he and John were reunited).

 

Yes, Mary is the only person so far who seems to be completely spared Sherlock's usual, um, "charm". Not only does he like her - that doesn't usually modify his behavior much, look at how he treats his other friends - he apparently really respects her. If this wasn't Sherlock and I didn't know better, I'd even go so far as to say he might be a little afraid of her.

 

One reason (among many) why I wouldn't complain if Mary stuck around for a while is that I'm really curious how her friendship (or whatever you want to call it) with Sherlock will develop in the future. Theirs is one of the most interesting relationships on the show at the moment, or at least it could be, if only an tenth of its potential is realized. Also, Mary's background could make for some great cases.

 

I don't think she'd necessarily be any more "in the way" than Lestrade or Mrs Hudson or Molly. Probably less so than Mycroft, if you ask me. It's all a question of how the stories are written. If The Sign of Three is any indication on how they plan to integrate her into the cast, then there's really, really nothing to worry about. I've never seen a wedding (on TV or elsewhere) that was so little about the bride. The same goes for an eventual Miss Watson.

 

In the original, during the time that Watson was married, Holmes would simply lure and / or order him away from home and hearth whenever he needed an assistant, a colleague would take over the doctor's practice for a few days, his wife would give him a little push out the door and then you could almost forget for the rest of the case that he was married or had any kind of a steady job.

[Caya]

 

One reason (among many) why I wouldn't complain if Mary stuck around for a while is that I'm really curious how her friendship (or whatever you want to call it) with Sherlock will develop in the future. Theirs is one of the most interesting relationships on the show at the moment, or at least it could be, if only an tenth of its potential is realized. Also, Mary's background could make for some great cases.

 

You know, that really makes me wonder how (if) Moftiss are ever going to pull off S4 without alienating half (not an estimate, actual numbers unknown, go vote in the poll ) of their fanbase, even more so than with The Fall's explanation.

 

When I read this, my fist reaction was, "ugh". What you describe is pretty much the last thing I want to see. But then again, what I'd prefer (her being gone in the first five minutes, messy end optional) would not make you happy. From where I stand, I can't see any solution that would make us both continue watching the show, but I sure hope they pull one out of their hat.

[T.o.b.y]

You know, that really makes me wonder how (if) Moftiss are ever going to pull off S4 without alienating half (not an estimate, actual numbers unknown, go vote in the poll ) of their fanbase, even more so than with The Fall's explanation.

 

When I read this, my fist reaction was, "ugh". What you describe is pretty much the last thing I want to see. But then again, what I'd prefer (her being gone in the first five minutes, messy end optional) would not make you happy. From where I stand, I can't see any solution that would make us both continue watching the show, but I sure hope they pull one out of their hat.

 

Um, I think it'd be easier to satisfy me than you here. I wouldn't stop watching if they killed Mary, not at all. If they want to alienate me, they'll have to try harder. Like marry Sherlock to Janine, or something like that. Or kill John. Or kill Sherlock. Or make John kill Sherlock. Or... nope, better not give anybody ideas.

 

I'm afraid there is little chance of your wish being fulfilled, though. My impression so far has been that the writers are very pleased with Mary and that they won't be finished with her for a while, if ever.

 

Would you be sufficiently appeased if they just gently let her fade into the background, as Doyle did with the original Mrs Watson?

[Caya]

Nope - what I'd really want from this show is for Mary to reap what she sowed, as in face some consequences for killing an unarmed friend (consequences as in jail time or other serious repercussions, not as in "but her husband was really angry with her for weeks on end"). Since this isn't likely to happen (as Moftiss are apparently of the opinion that "she's redeemed", however that should've happened) I'd settle for her vanishing off the show. Gently fading into the background would mean that she gets rewarded with a happy life for murder, and that goes too much against my basic sense of justice (and yeah, I know life isn't always fair - that's why my fiction should be ).

[sherlockandjohn]

I think I'd be appeased with that (letting Mary fade into the background) at the moment. I'm not crazy about exploring Sherlock and Mary's friendship, because they are too much alike in some areas. It might feel like them ganging up on John. I think we've seen examples of that already in TEH and HLV. Personally, I hope they'll keep that dynamic to a minimum and focus on Sherlock and John.

 

That being said, I'm appeased with it, not because it's appealing, but because Mary's death would be less appealing. Maybe John and Mary getting a divorce is a better choice, but I don't see that happening. John seems set on forgiving her, and besides, if he doesn't, I'm not sure whether I'll like him more or less. I'm just not particularly happy with Mary's idea of what she has a right to do (take a man's life).

 

I suppose it would be interesting to see Mary's past catch up with her in some way, but I don't think that will happen. The next best thing is just to focus on Sherlock and John, and let Mary be somewhere in the background. In my opinion, of course.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

... sometimes we can't fully explain why we do or don't like people, can we? Something in our funny little brains that's out of our control .....

 

 

I know, and sometimes it drives me crazy I really want to explain my feelings about Mary in TEH and TSoT - that is, why I never really fell in love with her character - but I find it really hard. She just never appealed that much to me.

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

I know, and sometimes it drives me crazy I really want to explain my feelings about Mary in TEH and TSoT - that is, why I never really fell in love with her character - but I find it really hard. She just never appealed that much to me.

 

That's fine, if you ask me, and a perfectly valid reason. Bill Wiggins doesn't appeal to me, for example, and some people really disliked Henry Knight. The beauty of fictional people is that you don't have to feel bad about your dislikes in the least and they do not have to be reasonable in any way. (I positively revel in my dislike of poor Mycroft... he's so much fun to hate)

 

I wonder where on earth Moffat got the idea to make Mary an assassin living under an assumed name from. I know he claims he always thought the Doyle story implies that Holmes shot Milverton himself and Watson just made up the lady with the gun to protect him - did he see any hints in the original text that Miss Morstan might have a shady past or a fake identity? If so, they must be pretty nebulous...

 

As for just focus on Sherlock and John, as far as I can see, there is little danger of the show ever doing anything else. Even when we saw John and Mary by themselves in series 3, Sherlock always either was the subject of their conversation or became it. Even during their reconciliation scene, John remarks on Sherlock having brought them to his parents' house for a reason. The show is named Sherlock and so far, it's been about Sherlock and I am pretty confident that won't change. Why should it?

 

[sherlockandjohn]

sherlockandjohn, you mentioned that you think Mary complex. Could you elaborate? I really have a hard time understanding that part of your post. I believe I've once stated that before: Mary seems very one-dimensional to me. It's like the writers took out anything and everything that could make her a round character. We get (imho) to see no development whatsoever beside the nasty surprise she kept in her locker.

 

What I mean by complex here is that she is hard to figure out yet. Perhaps that's actually the opposite of complex, come to think of it We don't know that much about her, which gives her an heir of mystery. The way I see her is that she is capable of complete human decency and compassion - I don't think she's simply putting up a facade when she shows concern for people (like Sherlock in TSoT and Kate in HLV) - I think she honestly cares about them, but when it comes to people like Magnussen, she is cold and unforgiving. Most of us might think that we would not kill Magnussen in her shoes, or in Sherlock's. Her reasoning seems to be that if the world is better off without someone, they should be killed, and she's a woman of action, taking matters into her own hands. There is a definite coldness to her when faced with vicious creeps like Magnussen.

 

I don't see her as cold towards Sherlock, but I don't see her as completely warm and loving, either. It's like she knows that Sherlock is not a really good person himself (like her), so she treats him like she would expect him to treat her. And quite frankly, Sherlock can be pretty cold towards her as well.

 

Actually, now that I think of it, they do have an interesting relationship. I don't even get my own feelings at this point... in one way I'm fascinated, and at the same time I'm appalled. It's a bit creepy...

[sherlockandjohn]

I wonder where on earth Moffat got the idea to make Mary an assassin living under an assumed name from. I know he claims he always thought the Doyle story implies that Holmes shot Milverton himself and Watson just made up the lady with the gun to protect him - did he see any hints in the original text that Miss Morstan might have a shady past or a fake identity? If so, they must be pretty nebulous...

 

As for just focus on Sherlock and John, as far as I can see, there is little danger of the show ever doing anything else. Even when we saw John and Mary by themselves in series 3, Sherlock always either was the subject of their conversation or became it. Even during their reconciliation scene, John remarks on Sherlock having brought them to his parents' house for a reason. The show is named Sherlock and so far, it's been about Sherlock and I am pretty confident that won't change. Why should it?

 

I think it's easy to get caught up in HLV - it was the last episode, and a very dramatic one, after all - in which Mary has a big part. And, indirectly, she does in TSoT as well. It's always insinuated that Sherlock and John's friendship isn't the same, because John is getting married.

 

As for your musings on the idea of making Mary an ex-assasin... Yes, I'd love to hear how they thought of that. Maybe they just wanted something really dramatic involving her. Maybe they didn't simply want a sweet, loving housewife-type for John. Maybe they wanted to put Sherlock in the most dramatic situation possible, being shot by John's wife, and then later shooting the man who is threatening her... One cannot help but wonder.