Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sherlockandjohn]

... if Mary had been allowed to fade into the background like the original Mrs Watson, I would not have minded her and I suspect that many others feel the same. ...

 

Yep, that's what I originally thought would happen with the introduction of Mary, and was happy with it. I figured she'd have more influence on John and Sherlock than, say, Mrs. Hudson, simply by being married to John - but I still thought she'd be a background figure, and TEH and TSoT didn't change my opinion on that. So maybe she will be. HLV could just have been a dramatic interlude. Not sure I'm buying that, though. The character has potential, I'll have to give the writers that much. I just don't know if I like the idea of that potential Ah, well... If Mary has a prominent role in s4, I at least hope she will be a self-sufficient, independent woman, and that John will feel free to run off on a case with Sherlock at a moments' notice.

[Arcadia]

I'm not sure that people who dislike Mary now necessarily disliked her prior to HLV. I liked her as a character in the first two episodes, though I was admittedly a bit concerned that she might upset the central dynamic between John and Sherlock.

Well, it was not a well thought out theory. It just struck me reading the posts that some of the same people who can't accept her now didn't like her presence from the start. But like most things with this show, simple explanations seldom work....

 

Or maybe we just need to go back to John's point of view, after seeing so much through Sherlock's eyes.

An excellent point. Altho I rather liked S's p.o.v., but as I mentioned before that's cuz I'm preternaturally curious about what's going on in that brain.

[Caya]

 

I'm not sure that people who dislike Mary now necessarily disliked her prior to HLV. I liked her as a character in the first two episodes, though I was admittedly a bit concerned that she might upset the central dynamic between John and Sherlock.

Well, it was not a well thought out theory. It just struck me reading the posts that some of the same people who can't accept her now didn't like her presence from the start. But like most things with this show, simple explanations seldom work....

 

Well according to the poll (which admittedly could use more participants, so go vote ) 91 per cent liked Mary as of Sign, and that dropped to 30 per cent as of Vow. So no, I'd say the majority liked her just fine before she went and killed Sherlock.

 

[Arcadia]

 

 

 

Sorry, but I have to disappoint you there: John can have as many friends and family as he likes, but Sherlock Holmes is a different story. He wouldn't be Sherlock Holmes if he had a normal social life. Isolation and loneliness are essential characteristics for him and if they eradicate those, they'll have to give the character a different name, in my opinion. Personally, I like Sherlock the best at his most "sociopathic", even though I only love him because I know there's that "great heart" somewhere behind the armor of coat and rudeness.

 

And I am afraid I'm not even keen on Sherlock being all too happy most of the time. I'm a bit of a sucker for dark, moody heroes.

Because it's canon, you mean? 

 

We'll certainly have to agree to disagree here. Maybe it's because I never read any ACD before I saw this show. And I haven't read much since, because it doesn't do much for me. But I don't see the Holmes other people describe when I read the stories. I don't find him particularly rude, or particularly dark, or anything really except very logical and a bit acerbic. I did notice that he laughs a lot.

 

What I do see in "our" Sherlock is a lot of love for previous interpretations. And they are just that; interpretations. I grew up thinking Watson was a real dumb bunny. As far as I was concerned, that was canon! That changed when I saw the Brett version, but that was okay by me. As was the dumb bunny version, frankly. I'm open to both. I'm open to Sherlock running off with Irene in Seven % Solution (I think that's the right one, it's been awhile since I've seen it.) All I'm saying is, it genuinely doesn't trouble me if it's not canon.

 

I understand it, though. As a Tolkien geek I have could have some real issues with Peter Jackson's interpretations, or Ralph Bakshi's. But I don't. They stand on their own, they don't detract from the book. And they are the same characters; just thru someone else's eyes. I bet my interpretation of Faramir and Tolkien's wouldn't match, either.

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter, cuz Moftiss are gonna do what they want! I'm pretty sure I will be disappointed only if the show drops in quality. They can take the characters any direction and I'll be along for the ride, until it gets dumb or boring or just too plain silly -- all possible outcomes, alas. Hopefully not for a long time, tho. I have a feeling the actors will quit if that starts to happen, anyway; they've as much as said so.

[Arcadia]

 

 

 

Well according to the poll (which admittedly could use more participants, so go vote ) 91 per cent liked Mary as of Sign, and that dropped to 30 per cent as of Vow. So no, I'd say the majority liked her just fine before she went and killed Sherlock.

Well, there you go, then. So much for that theory!

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but I have to disappoint you there: John can have as many friends and family as he likes, but Sherlock Holmes is a different story. He wouldn't be Sherlock Holmes if he had a normal social life. Isolation and loneliness are essential characteristics for him and if they eradicate those, they'll have to give the character a different name, in my opinion. Personally, I like Sherlock the best at his most "sociopathic", even though I only love him because I know there's that "great heart" somewhere behind the armor of coat and rudeness.

 

And I am afraid I'm not even keen on Sherlock being all too happy most of the time. I'm a bit of a sucker for dark, moody heroes.

 

Because it's canon, you mean? 

 

No, because I simply like it. There are plenty of things about the original that I do not like, and so far, Sherlock has managed to leave most of them out, while taking what I did like and turning that up to eleven. I fell in love with the great detective while reading "The Hound of the Baskervilles" as a young teen and of course my head turned him into this pretty romanticized figure which is, to be honest, a lot closer to Cumberbatch's Sherlock than the original, probably. No wonder the BBC show hit me so hard, it was like "wow, finally somebody got it right!" Even though they are distinctly different people inside my brain, the original Holmes and "our" Sherlock.

 

As you say, Holmes laughs a lot in the original stories and he's actually a lot more polite and well-adjusted than you'd think if you only knew the adaptations. But he definitely has that dark eccentric streak and he is certainly alone. Watson calls him a "lonely figure". He never struck me as being bothered by that, though, or wanting to change it.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter, cuz Moftiss are gonna do what they want! I'm pretty sure I will be disappointed only if the show drops in quality. They can take the characters any direction and I'll be along for the ride, until it gets dumb or boring or just too plain silly -- all possible outcomes, alas. Hopefully not for a long time, tho. I have a feeling the actors will quit if that starts to happen, anyway; they've as much as said so.

 

Lets hope so. I still have this vain hope that the show will end after series 5 and have a real, satisfying ending, too. *Sigh* a girl can dream, right?

 

[Arcadia]

 

But I do want them to have that connection that says, "If your life is on the line, I'll risk my own to save you." That's why I can understand and agree with those who want to see more of that side to John in s4.

 

This is where I get confused. At what point did John indicate he would not risk his life for Sherlock? I can't remember a time in S3 (or any other time, frankly) when he refused to go along with whatever Sherlock had in mind. What did I miss?

 

I know some people think he was cold at the airport, but that's another interpretation thingy; I see exactly the opposite. So if that's the basis of John's somehow failing to uphold his side of the friendship, I  guess I won't be able to understand it. If it's about Mary; again, John is trusting Sherlock's judgement on that matter, not his own. His first instinct was to be done with her. But rather than go against his friend, he waits and wrestles with his feelings about her.

 

I don't know. I sort of get it ... their relationship IS different ... but I don't really get it ... I don't see that John is less of a friend.

 

Hmmm; he doesn't need Sherlock anymore, is that it? He's got Mary to keep him in trouble now. Yet he still runs into danger when Sherlock beckons. He's still the wing man. Because Sherlock wants him there. Because they're best friends.

 

Just don't know, folks. Brain needs a recharge.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

But I do want them to have that connection that says, "If your life is on the line, I'll risk my own to save you." That's why I can understand and agree with those who want to see more of that side to John in s4.

 

This is where I get confused. At what point did John indicate he would not risk his life for Sherlock? I can't remember a time in S3 (or any other time, frankly) when he refused to go along with whatever Sherlock had in mind. What did I miss?

 

I know some people think he was cold at the airport, but that's another interpretation thingy; I see exactly the opposite. So if that's the basis of John's somehow failing to uphold his side of the friendship, I  guess I won't be able to understand it. If it's about Mary; again, John is trusting Sherlock's judgement on that matter, not his own. His first instinct was to be done with her. But rather than go against his friend, he waits and wrestles with his feelings about her.

 

I don't know. I sort of get it ... their relationship IS different ... but I don't really get it ... I don't see that John is less of a friend.

 

Hmmm; he doesn't need Sherlock anymore, is that it? He's got Mary to keep him in trouble now. Yet he still runs into danger when Sherlock beckons. He's still the wing man. Because Sherlock wants him there. Because they're best friends.

 

Just don't know, folks. Brain needs a recharge.

 

 

Yeah, mine too. But I'll try responding now anyway

 

It's not that John wouldn't risk his life for Sherlock; it's that we don't know anymore. Has his priorities changed enough that he will be more concerned about staying alive for Mary and the baby? Very reasonable, if that's the case, but I still hope not. Especially considering that Mary and the baby might have been in grave danger if not for Sherlock. I could argue for and against my own selfish wishes here, but my point is that we saw Sherlock risk his life and his future for John, both in TEH and in HLV. Sherlock had the role of protector in s3. I'm looking forward to hopefully see John return to that role. We saw it mostly in s1. It's time to get a refill.

 

John is by no means a bad friend in s3. I love him, and I understand him very well. In fact, both in TEH and in HLV I very much feel his pain and anger with both Sherlock and Mary. No, I don't agree with those who think John is a bad friend in HLV; I just long to see him in a situation in which it becomes relevant for him to protect Sherlock again.

 

With those words; good night

 

[Slithytove]

I wouldn't say John is a bad friend, it's just that his priority is no longer Sherlock. Of course, that is reasonable when someone Is married ( unless they find out they're married to a killer!) but that's maybe the reason why marrying him off wasn't such a great idea. After all, he isn't a real person, so he doesn't actually need the comfort and support of a wife and kids.

 

As for John being led by Sherlock regarding Mary.....hasn't he got a mind of his own? Couldn't he say, "I don't care if you forgive her or want me to forgive her - she shot you in cold blood, and I'll never forgive her"? As for taking her back, despite his own anger, because Sherlock told him to.....Well, I find that too hard to believe. No-one in their right mind stays married because their friend tells them they should!

[Slithytove]

Incidentally, I do know that none of the characters are real! I was just making the point that it was not necessary for the writers to marry John off. He could have stayed as Sherlock's flatmate forever, if they chose to let him stay at 221b.

[Zain]

 

But their friendship was the absolute center of S3! Virtually every scene was about their friendship! Head butts, motorbikes, bonfires, drunken games, serviettes, speeches, drug tests, betrayal, murder ... those were all about their friendship, imo, about what stupid, trivial or dangerous thing they will do for each other.

 

I grant you, John might have less time for Sherlock than he did before. And that's a little sad. But I don't see that his heart has changed. He's there in a tunnel with a bomb, he's breaking into CAM's office, he's in the heart of darkness at Appledore. He doesn't need to be in any of those places; except that Sherlock is his best friend, so yeah, he does need to be there. Because he loves his friend. He also happens to love his sister, and his wife, and no doubt his child, and for all I know he loves 50 or 600 or 1000 other people. I don't believe it takes anything away from Sherlock that John is capable of loving more than one person at a time. Love is not finite; the more you give, the more you have to give. Something Sherlock has yet to learn, methinks. He still thinks love is something you selfishly hoard lest it disperse, like a scent in a breeze. He's getting there, tho. If Mycroft doesn't get to him first.

 

 

 

 

To me, it wasn't. Yes, John calls Sherlock his best friend, and Sherlock publicly admits how much John means to him. But these words are hollow when you look at how the episode ends. John does not even notice that his best friend leaves early and on his own. It does not exactly speak in favor of their friendship.

 

I do not intend to judge John's decisions, actions, inaction, and so on. It's not like it's productive to point with one's finger. And maybe we do not even have all the facts.

I know that everybody has got a different opinion on this but to me, I was rather disappointed with the lack of actions in favor of their friendship. Not words. We got a lot of words on how much they appreciate each other but actions? Very little apart from Sherlock's big moment.

 

You mention that John still follows him around. But do they spend their free time together? John likes cases because he likes the tension and being useful. It's not like he is being a martyrer when he follows Sherlock on cases. Sure, there's the stag night. But besides that? We don't know but HLV makes it seem somewhat unlikely that they meet up every sunday for tea. They hadn't been in contact for a month. 

I just missed several things like that. Which makes one doubt the strength of their friendship: For example, would John follow Sherlock if Sherlock took ill and had to spend several weeks in the countryside? He certainly would not go with him to Eatern Europe. I hate it that I cannot say for sure if he would. Before... there would have been no doubt. Now? I don't know.

 

Call me childish, immature, I don't know. But while it is a great thing to love all people equally, you will always prioritize someone or another, either consciously or unconsciously.

If two people held a pistol at your best friends simultaneously, and he told you to choose who dies, and if you don't choose, both die. Exchanging yourself is no option. Few people would choose neither.

If you marry someone, you choose to spend more time with your spouse than with your other friends. They may be important to you but they are less important than your spouse. Every decision puts and takes value from something. There's a reason why people may have 1000 friends on social networks but their value is lower because other friends are valued higher. And spending less time with someone is a conscious decision, too. It leads to a downward spiral and friendships like that rarely recover. If you lose contact with someone... how often did you manage to become best friends again? Even if you want to, sometimes the train just... left. You may exchange pleasantries, the promise to keep more often in contact, and maybe you will but will you stick to that promise for the rest of your life?

That's my opinion. You may not share it, and I am aware of that. Just... yeah. Difficult topic.

 

I cannot recall who proposed the idea that I might only want John and Sherlock back "together" in 221b. Honestly, I would not mind if Lestrade, Janine, heck, if Mycroft moved into 221b in John's stead. It's not about both boys living together as platonic life partners. I do not mind that particular scenario but what this is about (for me) is that I want someone to put Sherlock first. Anyone. I am just fed up with seeing Sherlock rejected and put aside. 

I never thought the day would come. I love Sherlock!whump, and I probably read more stories with Sherlock being sick, disabled, in trouble, dying, hurt and/or amnesiac than it is decent. But s3 just irked me in this regard. It's a bit much. I mean Sherlock (not judging if it was justified or not):

• is tortured while naked in a cold prison somewhere in nowhere
• is hit in the face (multiple times)
• is ignored by his best friend
• has to live alone in 221b upon returning from a very stressful situation (he was being tortured)
• has to jump into a fire
• does not find anybody at his friend's wedding who pays any attention to him and nobody stops him from leaving even though the three people who were named his three weaknesses in TRF were present
• falls out of contact with his best friend
• gets slapped by Molly
• is reprimanded by his brother
• gets shot by Mary and almost dies
• gets his morphine dose lowered
• gets threatened with a gun again
• ends up in hospital again and is only released around Christmas
• is sent to his death

 

It's a bit much. They overdid it imo... I have a hard time being angry at him for lying to John when faced with that list staring into my face. He certainly did not have an easy time in s3. Is it too much to wish that something good came his way for once? John hasn't proven himself to fulfil this position in s3. So maybe another person. If not Victor Trevor... maybe Lestrade. He seemed to be happy to have Sherlock back.

[T.o.b.y]

 I mean Sherlock (not judging if it was justified or not):

• is tortured while naked in a cold prison somewhere in nowhere
• is hit in the face (multiple times)
• is ignored by his best friend
• has to live alone in 221b upon returning from a very stressful situation (he was being tortured)
• has to jump into a fire
• does not find anybody at his friend's wedding who pays any attention to him and nobody stops him from leaving even though the three people who were named his three weaknesses in TRF were present
• falls out of contact with his best friend
• gets slapped by Molly
• is reprimanded by his brother
• gets shot by Mary and almost dies
• gets his morphine dose lowered
• gets threatened with a gun again
• ends up in hospital again and is only released around Christmas
• is sent to his death

 

Oh dear, when you put it like that... The poor sod, maybe he has suffered enough for The Fall, even though I still think that was the cruelest thing I ever saw a hero do to anybody.

 

I'll try to think of some good things that happen to Sherlock during series 3... That should cheer me up during my long work day.

 

Hmmm, at the wedding, Sherlock actually gets quite a lot of attention. More than he might have liked, with all the guests staring at him as he tried to get through his speech and solve a murder at the same time. And if he had really wanted, say, Janine to leave the party with him, he wouldn't have put so much effort into finding another guy for her. I don't know what the writers thought about that, but let me speak for us lone wolfs out here and say that sometimes, it's really good to be alone and if I had been forced by the obligations of friendship to attend a big wedding - in the conspicuous position of best man / maid of honor / whatever - I would have left just like that. I've snuck away from plenty of social gatherings, and believe me, it doesn't feel nearly as bad as it looks. And it does not mean nobody loves you, either.

 

[Arcadia]

As for John being led by Sherlock regarding Mary.....hasn't he got a mind of his own? Couldn't he say, "I don't care if you forgive her or want me to forgive her - she shot you in cold blood, and I'll never forgive her"? As for taking her back, despite his own anger, because Sherlock told him to.....Well, I find that too hard to believe. No-one in their right mind stays married because their friend tells them they should!

Aw, no, that's not what I meant. I was using the name "Mary" as a shortcut to several different discussions, I think, and responding to a general notion that John has become dismissive of Sherlock -- not to sherlockandjohn's remarks specifically. At any rate, I was too vague.

 

What I meant was, in the heat of a marital crisis, which really should have been between only those two, John agrees to "treat Mary as a client." (Let's put aside for a moment whether Mary deserved such consideration or not.) My point is, John once again follows Sherlock's lead, not because he wants to, but because it's where Sherlock wants to go. John is hurt and angry, he wants to lash out. But Sherlock wants him to listen and think. So he does. I take that as an indication of the high regard John has for Sherlock. Like many times before, he could have said "piss off." But he didn't.

 

Deciding he wanted to keep Mary in his life came later, and I presume without much input from anyone else, because he doesn't seem like that kind of guy to me. But who knows.

[Arcadia]

To me, it wasn't. Yes, John calls Sherlock his best friend, and Sherlock publicly admits how much John means to him. But these words are hollow when you look at how the episode ends. John does not even notice that his best friend leaves early and on his own. It does not exactly speak in favor of their friendship.

 

Yeah, but this is the same John who said, "He's not like that. He doesn't feel things that way."  Or who doesn't notice that Sherlock looks sad when he thinks John can't see him. Who doesn't notice that Sherlock is having some sort of emotional breakdown in "Hound". (I've often thought that was John's least glorious moment; he's a doctor, fer cryin' out loud....) I sometimes think John has never known Sherlock very wll. Or maybe he's the only one who does, and Sherlock really is "a machine."

 

I cannot recall who proposed the idea that I might only want John and Sherlock back "together" in 221b. Honestly, I would not mind if Lestrade, Janine, heck, if Mycroft moved into 221b in John's stead. It's not about both boys living together as platonic life partners. I do not mind that particular scenario but what this is about (for me) is that I want someone to put Sherlock first. Anyone. I am just fed up with seeing Sherlock rejected and put aside.

Now you're singing my tune! I just want to see the poor schmuck happy! Let him marry Janine if that's what it takes! (Noooo.....) I guess you're right, he has been represented as the kind of person who is happiest when he's put first. But I'm hoping he's growing out of that.

[Zain]

 

I've snuck away from plenty of social gatherings, and believe me, it doesn't feel nearly as bad as it looks. And it does not mean nobody loves you, either.

 

 

Oh, that I believe you quite readily. I am not much for mingling either. I prefer to talk to a few people which I truly connect with rather than exchange lots of pleasantries. Nothing wrong with that but just... not my cup of tea. I suppose that comes with having a more introverted than extroverted personality.

 

The reason why I counted that as something unpleasant that happens to Sherlock is that he seems to be actively looking for someone to talk to. But everybody is busy, so he leaves. I probably would not have counted it if it hadn't been for this.

 

As you said, Arcadia, I would give Janine and Sherlock my blessing if she made him happy at this point. The problem: He chose John and their friendship. And that is much more complicated...

If Sherlock wasn't this fixated on John, he might be happier at this point. Or, well, not in danger of being sent to his death without so much as a thank you note from either of the two Watsons. But it is John that he believes will make him happy. So I am making up strange plans to get John to appreciate him a bit more.... If I confronted myself with my past self from post-TRF, I probably would laugh at myself. I can't remember if I ever gave much of a thought about Victor Trevor before that. 

[Slithytove]

When you think about it, John is pretty dense at times regarding Sherlock's mental state. (I wonder about the quality of care his patients get, if they have anything other than physical ailments!). Sherlock is, of course, a very complex man but John is his best friend and a doctor, and Sherlock seems most at ease in his company, so he might be expected to understand better than anyone how Sherlock feels. However, it seems he often does not.

 

Pretending to kill yourself in front of someone and then disappearing for a couple of years is a cruel thing to do, even if you had a powerful reason for doing it. Personally, I think the original explanation, i.e. the snipers, made most sense and vindicated Sherlock's behaviour much more than the explanation in TEH, so I prefer to think that it was closer to the truth. I can't blame John for his initial anger - it was more believable than Watson's response, which was more or less, "Yay, you're back! Let's solve crimes!". However, I think it would have been more satisfying if John had, after forgiving Sherlock, shown something of Watson's unshakable friendship. Like Zain, I felt that that powerful bond was less obvious now on John's side. The series begins with Sherlock suffering and he keeps on suffering, physically and mentally, but no-one seems to realise the extent of what he is going through.

 

I agree that John suffered too, realising that both his best friend and his wife had lied to him, and then being told by both that it was his own fault for liking dangerous people. That, I thought, was unfair. All in all, though, I felt John wasn't there for Sherlock in the ways that he needed (I know he was there for the adventures, that's not what I mean.). I will admit to be very Sherlock-centric. I love John but I would throw him under a bus, figuratively speaking, to save Sherlock. I suppose that's why Sherlock's suffering in S3 resonates so strongly with me.

[Arcadia]

I agree with all of that, except that I'm not sure John was ever there for Sherlock emotionally. Maybe he was, I'm trying to think of a time. Not that Sherlock wanted anyone to acknowledge he had emotions....

 

There's an irony here ... Sherlock apparently expected John to be the same old John when he came back. When he found out otherwise, he had to flail around trying to adapt to it.

 

And apparently John's made the same mistake ... he thinks Sherlock hasn't changed either (and with ample reason). So he, imo, treats Sherlock as he has always done. And if Sherlock only needed John as a partner in crime-solving before, why should he need anything different now? Except that the audience knows that Sherlock's never been as self-contained as he pretends to be. But does John?

 

So I guess I would say  that, to me, the sad thing is not that the nature of John's friendship has changed; it's that it hasn't changed. Sherlock's trying to adapt but John doesn't even realize he needs to.

 

The change, of course, is that John is no longer physically present at 221B. Which would naturally affect Sherlock more; he's the one who has to wake up to the empty flat every day. But nothing in their past relationship would make me expect John to think of that.

 

Mary did, though.

[by the sea]

.

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter, cuz Moftiss are gonna do what they want! I'm pretty sure I will be disappointed only if the show drops in quality. They can take the characters any direction and I'll be along for the ride, until it gets dumb or boring or just too plain silly -- all possible outcomes, alas. Hopefully not for a long time, tho. I have a feeling the actors will quit if that starts to happen, anyway; they've as much as said so.

 

 

Wow !  I'm with you, Arcadia ... time zones, work and the lack of opportunity to get online at home have put me really far behind in this thread !   But, I so agree with your quote here.  I'm sure that Moftiss would be so pleased by how thought-provoking their brainchild is ... but personally, I just can't get to that place.  I love Sherlock the show, Sherlock the character, John ... especially John ...  Lastrade, Molly, Mrs. Hudson, Mycroft, Irene ... all those people ... hell, I even love Mary (sorry but I find her character flaws fascinating).  For me, the twists and turns are what I'm watching for and, as noted above, the quality ... and the atmosphere, too ... the feel is so amazing ! Count me in for the long haul ... and I hope Mary is around for a large part of it !  

 

Debbie

[Arcadia]

Yes, the feel of it -- that lovely intangible quality that I can't even describe -- keep that, and I will be there!

[Arcadia]

I don't think any of us are that far apart here, but for the sheer FUN of being argumentative I now present:

 

TA DA!!!!

 

Seven Times Something Good Happens to Sherlock Holmes in Season Three

 

7. Lestrade hugs him. (Ok, maybe that wasn't a highlight for Sherlock, but it sure was for me)

6. He one ups Mycroft. YEAH.

5. He makes the guests cry at the wedding (yes, I know he didn't understand, but it was still a magic moment!)

4. Molly still loves him. Awww......

3. John says "I forgive you."

2. John hugs him.

And the best thing that happened to Sherlock in S3 ...

1. John ... emotionally repressed, sarcastic, undemonstrative John ... actually says out loud, to his face, sincerely, "You're my best friend."

 

Oh, why stop there?

Seven Times Something BAD Happens to John Watson in Season Three

7. He has a really lousy stag night.

6. He's kidnapped (again) and put in a bonfire.

5. Sherlock tricks him (again).

4. Sherlock makes jokes at his expense (again).

3. He's humiliated by one of Sherlock's foes (again).

2. He almost loses his best friend (again). Twice.

And vying for the honor of WORST thing that happens to John in S3 was ...

1. His wife shoots his best friend  AND  He witnesses his best friend murder someone. And they both do it for him.

 

And just for balance:

Seven Times Something GOOD Happened to John Watson in Season Three

7. He grows a mustache. Oh, wait, everyone hates it. Never mind!

6. He finds steady work. Er, wait, that means he has to see patients... forget that.

5. His best friend comes back. Oops, sorry, said friend convinces him he's about to die in an explosion ...

4. He has a nice heart-to-heart with his friend. Wait, no, the complete dickhead's bolted again...

3. His fiance and his best friend get along famously. Oh, sorry, now they're conspiring with each other.

2. He trusts his friend to have a plan. Ooops, ow, he's being flicked in the face.

And the BEST thing that happened to John in S3 was ...

1. He gets married. Oh, wait, the bride's a former assassin who shoots his best friend ...

[Slithytove]

I agree with all of that, except that I'm not sure John was ever there for Sherlock emotionally. Maybe he was, I'm trying to think of a time. Not that Sherlock wanted anyone to acknowledge he had emotions....

 

There's an irony here ... Sherlock apparently expected John to be the same old John when he came back. When he found out otherwise, he had to flail around trying to adapt to it.

 

And apparently John's made the same mistake ... he thinks Sherlock hasn't changed either (and with ample reason). So he, imo, treats Sherlock as he has always done. And if Sherlock only needed John as a partner in crime-solving before, why should he need anything different now? Except that the audience knows that Sherlock's never been as self-contained as he pretends to be. But does John?

 

So I guess I would say that, to me, the sad thing is not that the nature of John's friendship has changed; it's that it hasn't changed. Sherlock's trying to adapt but John doesn't even realize he needs to.

 

The change, of course, is that John is no longer physically present at 221B. Which would naturally affect Sherlock more; he's the one who has to wake up to the empty flat every day. But nothing in their past relationship would make me expect John to think of that.

 

Mary did, though.

I don't know......To me, the feeling has changed. When John was standing at Sherlock's grave, his emotion was clear and heartfelt. At the airfield, even though Sherlock told him they would never meet again, there was nothing. Granted, John is somewhat repressed and thus more comfortable talking to a stone than to a human being, but even so....

 

As Zain said, it's not just the words, it's the deeds. In S1 & 2, he seemed to be there for Sherlock all the time - dashing to save him in ASiP, trudging off to the moors or the railway at Sherlock's request, sitting through Jim's trial, and so on.....but in S4 he seems to have been there for the highlights but, otherwise, pretty distant.

 

However, I could accept the change in attitude if he wasn't still living with the woman who tried to murder Sherlock. ( Okay, so her intent is debatable, but "balance of probability, brother mine".). That seems to signal a change of focus that is just too much to bear.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, see your point. I'm still not convinced it's a change in attitude so much as a change in circumstances, though. But I guess the outcome's the same; Sherlock's more isolated. Which is where I suspect he will be in the end, but hope he won't. I try to avoid stories with sad endings; experienced too many in real life, I guess, to want them in my entertainment.

 

On that cheery note, I'm changing the subject just an itty bit... someone here once wondered something like "why did Moftiss decide to introduce a wife and child?" And after the above discussion, I'm inclined to think it was for the very reason we saw; it illuminates yet another facet of the very complex nature of one William Sherlock Scott Holmes. On some basic level, that's what every character is in the show for; to reflect Sherlock. (No wonder he thinks he's special!) I read somewhere the writers want to show growth, they don't want the characters to remain static. So if it hadn't of been Mary, it would have been someone, I suspect. Someone who disrupted the flow of their lives, so that we could see how Sherlock reacted. And it was utterly fascinating to watch. Have I mentioned before how much I admired the performance of that Cumberbatch guy?  

[T.o.b.y]

I don't think any of us are that far apart here, but for the sheer FUN of being argumentative I now present:

 

TA DA!!!!

 

Seven Times Something Good Happens to Sherlock Holmes in Season Three

 

7. Lestrade hugs him. (Ok, maybe that wasn't a highlight for Sherlock, but it sure was for me)

6. He one ups Mycroft. YEAH.

5. He makes the guests cry at the wedding (yes, I know he didn't understand, but it was still a magic moment!)

4. Molly still loves him. Awww......

3. John says "I forgive you."

2. John hugs him.

And the best thing that happened to Sherlock in S3 ...

1. John ... emotionally repressed, sarcastic, undemonstrative John ... actually says out loud, to his face, sincerely, "You're my best friend."

 

Oh, why stop there?

Seven Times Something BAD Happens to John Watson in Season Three

7. He has a really lousy stag night.

6. He's kidnapped (again) and put in a bonfire.

5. Sherlock tricks him (again).

4. Sherlock makes jokes at his expense (again).

3. He's humiliated by one of Sherlock's foes (again).

2. He almost loses his best friend (again). Twice.

And vying for the honor of WORST thing that happens to John in S3 was ...

1. His wife shoots his best friend  AND  He witnesses his best friend murder someone. And they both do it for him.

 

And just for balance:

Seven Times Something GOOD Happened to John Watson in Season Three

7. He grows a mustache. Oh, wait, everyone hates it. Never mind!

6. He finds steady work. Er, wait, that means he has to see patients... forget that.

5. His best friend comes back. Oops, sorry, said friend convinces him he's about to die in an explosion ...

4. He has a nice heart-to-heart with his friend. Wait, no, the complete dickhead's bolted again...

3. His fiance and his best friend get along famously. Oh, sorry, now they're conspiring with each other.

2. He trusts his friend to have a plan. Ooops, ow, he's being flicked in the face.

And the BEST thing that happened to John in S3 was ...

1. He gets married. Oh, wait, the bride's a former assassin who shoots his best friend ...

 

 

Oh, thank you! Especially since for some unfathomable reason, my work refused to leave me much leisure to ponder this myself... Really, why does life always have to intrude on one's daydreams?

 

On that cheery note, I'm changing the subject just an itty bit... someone here once wondered something like "why did Moftiss decide to introduce a wife and child?"

 

 

Wife: easy, Mary Morstan is one of the few recurring female characters in Doyle's stories and John Watson gets married to her at the end of "The Sign of the Four", then roughly half of the stories take place during that marriage. Why would they leave out something big like that for their adaptation?

 

Baby: No F***ing idea. It's a complete mystery to me. There were no Watson children ever mentioned in the original. I have absolutely no clue whatsoever where they are trying to go with that, nor how it will fit in in the future. I guess they have a plan. Or not. We shall see.

 

 

Yeah, but this is the same John who said, "He's not like that. He doesn't feel things that way."  Or who doesn't notice that Sherlock looks sad when he thinks John can't see him. Who doesn't notice that Sherlock is having some sort of emotional breakdown in "Hound". (I've often thought that was John's least glorious moment; he's a doctor, fer cryin' out loud....) I sometimes think John has never known Sherlock very wll. Or maybe he's the only one who does, and Sherlock really is "a machine."

 

John just really believes in Sherlock Holmes. In that image Sherlock has created of himself and which he too believes (or used to believe) in. Which might a big reason why Sherlock likes to have John around. It's so absurdly easy not to lose face with him.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, don't worry about your timezone! The written word is patient. Just quote whatever post you want to answer, I'd say, and if it's ten pages back, so what? I can't imagine anyone objecting.

Well, I sure hope they won't -- I've got a heck of a lot of catching up to do!

 

I keep thinking it's more like Disney. I never will forget how cheated I felt when it turned out Trusty the Hound Dog was still alive at the end of Lady and the Tramp! I went thru that grieving for nothing?

Or how about E.T.?     Not Disney, but certainly Disney-esque -- and the worst chain-yanking I ever got in a movie theater.  I do hope Moftiss won't go to that well too many more times!

 

And what a debate I've started ~ I did not intend for my comment to turn into serious contemplation.

Maybe it is time we try to settle this. Everybody who dislikes Mary or her actions could say something nice about her, and those who defend her actions or her character state something they dislike about her.. .

 

What about those of us who basically (as Arcadia said a ways back) accept Mary for the time being?  Well, I like that she was "there" for John during Sherlock's "death."  I dislike that she shot Sherlock.  Not saying that those two items balance out, just that we know so little about her at this point.

 

Let's face it, we basically were told nothing about her motivation, reasons, or her past. Anything and everything that could redeem her was kept back. I'd almost dare to accuse the writers of deliberately misleading the audience. Well, not misleading, maybe. But I suppose it will be important in the next season, and that's why they decided to forego the details and went with some emotional gestures.

 

OK, I could be happy with that -- they're saving Mary's true history and motivation for later.  'Cause if they simply think all that is unimportant, then what's the difference between Sherlock and a soap opera?

 

What I don't like about her is how she treats Sherlock. <snip> The very first time she sees him, she's laughing at him and while she sits by and watches him and John trying to sort out the last two years, with spectacularly bad success, she gives me the impression of suppressing a giggle the whole time, while I am choking back my tears, so to speak. She keeps making snide little comments about him, from "oh, he would have needed a confidante" to "his nibs"

 

Well, she's bound to be on John's side at that point, since she's seen how devastated he was by Sherlock's "death" and how cavalier Sherlock seems to be about it.  However, I've always taken her "confidante" remark as her (futile) attempt to justify some of Sherlock's behavior in John's eyes.  And the "his nibs" remark also strikes me as teasing John (about his paying more attention to Sherlock's opinion than to her own).

 

Well lucky you who can see a warm side in her - all I can see is deception and a smile that never reaches her eyes. Man, I wish the writers had given us at least a little more about who the char ... I'm all for open interpretation but I feel like I keep clutching at straws.

 

We're all clutching at straws, Martina.  Maybe some of us are simply more willing to trust the straws (for the time being).

 

... Sherlock ... has the decided advantage of really liking John and pretty much accepting him the way he is, and somehow, I got the impression that not too many people do that, even though I think "all John's friends hate him" was probably a bit exaggerated....

 

I believe you're right about the initial bond between them being the nearly-instant mutual respect and acceptance.  That does happen in real life, but oh-so-rarely, so they'd have been fools to ignore it.  However, at the risk of repeating myself, I think that "all John's friends hate him" was one instance when Sherlock's deductive powers failed him completely -- he has noticed that when John's friends are around, they generally seem uneasy -- but guess who else is always there?    (It's sort of a case of Sherlock-as-the-photographer.)

 

In the process of deleting parts of quotes, I seem to have deleted one part that I wanted to comment on.  Someone said (and it's been said here before as well) that in the airport scene, John should have gotten on the plane with Sherlock.  But couldn't that be construed as horribly ungrateful?  I mean, Sherlock has sacrificed his home and presumably his life so that Mary and John will be safe together.  If John had decided to go with him, mightn't that be seen as throwing Sherlock's precious gift back in his face?

 

[Arcadia]

Baby: No F***ing idea. It's a complete mystery to me. There were no Watson children ever mentioned in the original. I have absolutely no clue whatsoever where they are trying to go with that, nor how it will fit in in the future. I guess they have a plan. Or not. We shall see.

 

    !!!!!!

 

John just really believes in Sherlock Holmes. In that image Sherlock has created of himself and which he too believes (or used to believe) in. Which might a big reason why Sherlock likes to have John around. It's so absurdly easy not to lose face with him.

So true!

 

I too wonder if Sherlock's lost a little faith in himself. "How do I have utility?" he says to Mycroft, and I thought he sounded bitter. Or maybe not. *Sigh* Was there a single question raised in S3 that actually got a definitive answer? (Okay, other than the identity of the Mayfly Man?)